165 réponses à ce sujet

[ReubenLiew]

They didn't JUST demand food. They rioted for food. Riots never end well for anybody.

[LtlMac]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

And no one will ever comment or read it, because it's too big to read and will get pushed down under a thousand other topics. Ah well, time, lost, forever.

I read it...the whole thing.  Mostly good points too.....though I would say you are going a little bit too easy on some pretty bad people.  I agree that Logain THOUGHT he was doing the write thing........but we alll know how the road to hell is paved.....

[Elanareon]

Actually Harrowmont is Napoleon. He took all casteless and made them golems then he kidnaps humans from the surface to make them golems. I was pissed that i helped him!

[Archonsg]

It isn't just with Loghain that the games shows off its complexities. One of the “funner” combinations in terms of banter between companions comes from having both Zevran and Lelianna in the group, or while having Sten, Morrigan and Orghern. Listening to thier banter will give you a quite a bit of perspective on them and made my experience playing the game almost never entirely the same twice. Well, the main story of course can’t be changed but you do get a better handle on your companions.
Which is why I wished we could have had Loghain a wee bit earlier into the game, talking to him you do get a sense of what he believed in and his reasons for what he did and I kept thinking to myself, if only I can turn him to see things from my perspective. 

As for Anora, she too is no innocent, considering how easily and fast she plays the "helpless maiden" when it suits her while being a downright heartless <insert expletive here> when she thinks she can get a away with it. Makes me wonder if I can harden Alister enough to order her execution  

[VernRyan]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...
Oh and with Morrigan, I suspect somehow that by the final scene in Redcliff she's actually Flemeth, and that she gets her way somehow in the end no matter what you do.
 
BioWare is amazing to have created a story that you can experience in so many different ways.

I loved this part and I suspect much the same but I'm not sure exactly where Flemeth came into the picture.  I almost saw some hints when she proposed the ritual/child that suggested she wasnt herself but I got her to admit her emotions in some of the dialog before I agreed so I'm not sure. 

This will obviously be a huge part of any sequel.  What exactly is Morrigan/Flemeths child? 

[RunCDFirst]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...
On military matters he still has legitimate authority. She could always give a direct order as queen. Besides what does she say that he dismisses exactly?

Demanding loyalty from the banns to him is not something a military commander must do. Anora is already on the throne, there shouldn't have been an issue of loyalty. Why should he have military authority? Generals still report to their monarchs.

Loghain dismisses her when she asks what happened at Ostagar. Plus, Howe goes to Loghain and not the Queen when he's reporting any information. Anora was shoved to the side and couldn't get Loghain to listen at all. He'd essentially staged a bloodless coup.

She accused me of kidnapping and tried to have Alister killed, and then she massacered my people in the Alienage because they demanded food.

Well, you blew her cover with Ser Cautherine after she specifically asked you not to .

Asking for Alistair's head isn't betraying you. Had you talked to her before the Landsmeet? Did you agree to have her take the throne/marry Alistair? When Alistair begins asserting his claim, he's threatening civil war. The easiest way to insure that he doesn't throw the realm into chaos is to have him executed.

I can't really speak on the Alienage. My playthrough they had reached an agreement, but I'm assuming if different choices were made, then the ending with the Alienage can be much worse.

[ValentineHeart82]

Elanareon wrote...

Actually Harrowmont is Napoleon. He took all casteless and made them golems then he kidnaps humans from the surface to make them golems. I was pissed that i helped him!

Nothing quite like realizing that all the pomp and honor was posturing and seeing the true colors of a con man, eh?

[Wompoo]

Hmm, sorry. I found Loghein's part in the story as blatant and obvious as a soggy Sao... not that it hurt the story. Honestly there is nothing requiring more then two brain cells bouncing around to work out. Yet I enjoyed the game and very much so. Was it dark? hardly (good I hate dark), was it complex, nope. The Dark Spawn felt like mindless beasts controlled by superficial needs and desires, ugly yep... scary? no (I actually would of preferred killing the Chantry, now there is a beast). Most of the origins were at best nothing more then glorified tutorials, many of them sadly lacking. But again I say, I still enjoyed the game very much. Hopefully BW make and release DLC that builds on existing story elements (main plot Origins and romances) and add complexity and consequence.

[ValentineHeart82]

RunCDFirst wrote...
Demanding loyalty from the banns to him is not something a military commander must do. Anora is already on the throne, there shouldn't have been an issue of loyalty. Why should he have military authority? Generals still report to their monarchs.

He was already head of the army and he wasn't just demanding loyalty for himself but also for the queen. As de-facto leader of the Army of Fereldan he also had to remind the banns of their duity and quash any hint of civil rebellion.

RunCDFirst wrote...
Loghain dismisses her when she asks what happened at Ostagar.

What was he to tell her? That he saw her husband crushed in his own armor by an Ogre? That's what she wanted to find out. He was still quite bitter about the defeat and too concerned with more pressing matters. What would you do in the situation?

RunCDFirst wrote...
Plus, Howe goes to Loghain and not the Queen when he's reporting any information.

You don't see what Howe tells Anora, and Loghein is the person to go to for a tactical report.

RunCDFirst wrote...
Anora was shoved to the side and couldn't get Loghain to listen at all. He'd essentially staged a bloodless coup.

I suppose it depends on who's story you believe. From my perspective Loghein took charge of the military and acted to defend Fereldan, as was his duity. I don't see him vying for the throne, and I know Anora can't be trusted because she accused me of kidnapping when I tried to rescue her. Loghein detailed his agenda to me after I took him along. He also proved himself more than willing to give himself up for Fereldan, in more ways than one.

I think he's the radical patriot, not the power mad tyrant.

RunCDFirst wrote...
Well, you blew her cover with Ser Cautherine after she specifically asked you not to .

I just tried to explain the situation. She betrayed me.

RunCDFirst wrote...
Asking for Alistair's head isn't betraying you. Had you talked to her before the Landsmeet? Did you agree to have her take the throne/marry Alistair? When Alistair begins asserting his claim, he's threatening civil war. The easiest way to insure that he doesn't throw the realm into chaos is to have him executed.

I suppose you're right on that, but she was quite hasty in her decision. Had she not been before the nobles of Fereldan I doubt she would have given me my boon and let him go.

RunCDFirst wrote...
I can't really speak on the Alienage. My playthrough they had reached an agreement, but I'm assuming if different choices were made, then the ending with the Alienage can be much worse.

In mine they were staving, many were injured, and they were sick from malnourishment. They demanded food but none was given to them, they got desperate and started a food riot. Rather than attempt to resolve it peacefully she made a brutal example out of them.

[ReubenLiew]

The way I see it, for every player that chose to tell the truth about Anora during their escape, is the classic example of the Paladin ; Virtue before logic.

Otherwise known as Lawful Stupid

[ValentineHeart82]

Wompoo wrote...

Hmm, sorry. I found Loghein's part in the story as blatant and obvious as a soggy Sao... not that it hurt the story. Honestly there is nothing requiring more then two brain cells bouncing around to work out. Yet I enjoyed the game and very much so. Was it dark? hardly (good I hate dark), was it complex, nope. The Dark Spawn felt like mindless beasts controlled by superficial needs and desires, ugly yep... scary? no (I actually would of preferred killing the Chantry, now there is a beast). Most of the origins were at best nothing more then glorified tutorials, many of them sadly lacking. But again I say, I still enjoyed the game very much. Hopefully BW make and release DLC that builds on existing story elements (main plot Origins and romances) and add complexity and consequence.

Dare I say Obvious Troll?

[eschilde]

I think a lot of the nastier things that happened under Loghain were Howe's ideas... Anora is definitely, well, cunning, but I think she just happens to be able to make the most of a given situation. There are several people who could be implicated in Eamon's poisoning but I'm pretty sure it was a Howe/Loghain combination based on what the elf whose name I can't remember and Jowan said. The Arl was already poisoned at the point where you get the cut scene where she asks about Ostagar, and it seems like she didn't really make a decision to move against Loghain until that point.



Someone mentioned Eamon had a better claim to the throne than Anora, but that's not true. He wasn't directly related to the royal family, only through marriage. Anora does actually have the better claim, being the sitting queen, but not better than Alistair's.



Tactically, Loghain may have made the decision to withdraw at Ostagar on the spot, but it's hard to say. If you take the human noble origin, Howe betrays the Couslands, but Howe had to have known that would have repercussions since Fergus gets away. To me, that implies he had some idea of what was going to happen to Cailin. Then there's what happens to the Circle directly after Ostagar, which is the whole 'Uldred tries to liberate the Circle with Loghain's blessing thing.' That's all speculation, but compound on top of that that Eamon's also poisoned and on his deathbed at this point?



Actually, thinking about it, I really wish DA:O had a timeline.. it's kind of confusing to think all this happened at once, and it makes it really hard to believe that Loghain didn't have designs on the throne by the time you get to Ostagar..

[ValentineHeart82]

ReubenLiew wrote...

The way I see it, for every player that chose to tell the truth about Anora during their escape, is the classic example of the Paladin ; Virtue before logic.
Otherwise known as Lawful Stupid

LMAO! I love that!

[Riot Inducer]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

RunCDFirst wrote...
When does she betray someone that hasn't betrayed her first? I agree she is both cunning and manipulative but she doesn't show that she's treacherous. She's the ideal ruler since she successfully follows the best outcome for the Prisoner Dilemma.

She accused me of kidnapping and tried to have Alister killed, and then she massacered my people in the Alienage because they demanded food.

Not sure what choices you made at the Landsmeet and the stuff leading up to that but in my first playthrough I supported her from the beginning and she niether tried to execute Alistair nor tor up the alienage in the end. She is cunning and very much wants to keep her power but honestly she is a good leader. If you go with her she doesn't feel the need to stab you in the back to maintain her rule.

Loghain isn't a bad person however I think you may perhaps give him a bit too much credit, he is far to paranoid about Orleais to take the blight seriously, he only acknowledges that the blight may in fact be a true blight at the Landsmeet when it is clear that it is the popular opinion. He ends up sacrificing the majority of his country to the darkspawn so he can take the power for himself and stop the phantom invasion from Orleais. Who knows, maybe he was right and the Chevaliers may have intended to sew chaos in Ferelden but that still didn't justify him abandoning the king and alienating the Grey Wardens. 

At any rate I think the real evil villain was Howe, you don't get the opportunity to explore his background or inner thoughts in the game but from his actions it seems pretty clear to me that he was no doubt behind many of the more heinous crimes committed under Loghain's rule. The killing of the Couslands was allowed by Loghain but was entirely for Howe's benefit, he was no doubt the mastermind behind the poisioning of Arl Eamon. I say that because it was Howe who hired the Antivian Crows to kill the PC and Loghain seemed to dislike having to resort to such measures, given that I doubt Loghain would think or want to poison Eamon but was convinced to allow it by Howe. All in all I think Howe was the real evil taking advantage of Loghain's paranoia of Orleais in order to further his own goals all the while using Loghain as a puppet more or less, given time Howe may have even deposed Loghain and put himself on the throne. 

[ReubenLiew]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

The way I see it, for every player that chose to tell the truth about Anora during their escape, is the classic example of the Paladin ; Virtue before logic.
Otherwise known as Lawful Stupid

LMAO! I love that!

Thank you, thank you *bows*

[RunCDFirst]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...
He was already head of the army and he wasn't just demanding loyalty for himself but also for the queen. As de-facto leader of the Army of Fereldan he also had to remind the banns of their duity and quash any hint of civil rebellion.

He is the head of his army, not the other banns. All of them were sworn to assist Cailan, who is husband of Anora. She flies her husband's banner, not her father's. The scene were Teagan calls out Loghain is where Loghain is asking the banns to swear the fealty to his banner, not Anora/Cailan's.

What was he to tell her? That he saw her husband crushed in his own armor by an Ogre? That's what she wanted to find out. He was still quite bitter about the defeat and too concerned with more pressing matters. What would you do in the situation?

He could tell her that he abandoned the field and left Cailan for dead. That's what she was looking for. He wouldn't even give her that.

You don't see what Howe tells Anora, and Loghein is the person to go to for a tactical report.

But that shouldn't be the case. Anora should be the one to go with the report with Loghain advising. During a war, the monarch doesn't stand to the side and let their general sit on the throne.

I suppose it depends on who's story you believe. From my perspective Loghein took charge of the military and acted to defend Fereldan, as was his duity. I don't see him vying for the throne, and I know Anora can't be trusted because she accused me of kidnapping when I tried to rescue her. Loghein detailed his agenda to me after I took him along. He also proved himself more than willing to give himself up for Fereldan, in more ways than one.

I'm sure that's how Loghain justified his actions. But once you oust Loghain, is it not odd that Anora is now in the war council discussing strategy? She may not be the one coming up with the plans, but she's the one that okays them. That's what a ruler does in those situations.

I just tried to explain the situation. She betrayed me.

So you ratted her out in an attempt to save your own skin?

Anora can't have Loghain knowing she's out undermining his authority. If Loghain knew that she was going to support the PC at the Landsmeet, I have little doubt that he would have her locked up. She must sneak around, incognito if she is to be any help in ousting Loghain.

By telling Loghain's right hand man that you have Anora on your side is basically telling Anora's biggest enemy to take her and get rid of her.

I suppose you're right on that, but she was quite hasty in her decision. Had she not been before the nobles of Fereldan I doubt she would have given me my boon and let him go.

She has a lot of support amongst the nobles because she is the real power behind Cailan's rule. I got the feeling that, since she had granted you a boon, she would stick to it whether there were lots of eyewitnesses or not. I mean, there were all of two other people that knew she agreed to give you a boon in the first place. If she were really underhanded, she would have denied any previous mentions of a favour instead of granting you one.

In mine they were staving, many were injured, and they were sick from malnourishment. They demanded food but none was given to them, they got desperate and started a food riot. Rather than attempt to resolve it peacefully she made a brutal example out of them.

That kinda sucks. I don't know what I did to get the good Alienage ending. And I had a Circle Elf...

[Suron]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

And no one will ever comment or read it, because it's too big to read and will get pushed down under a thousand other topics. Ah well, time, lost, forever.

you're in the wrong forums champ.  This isn't WoW...so take the WoW mentality back to the childrens board...kthx!

[ValentineHeart82]

Riot, there's also the point that Jowan never spoke to Loghein. Loghein may not have even known that Eamon was being poisoned in his name, Howe could have set the whole thing up.



Also at Ostagar, I didn't see it as abandoning the king. Loghein saw that the battle was already lost and by the time the signal came it was too late. What was he to do, charge in and die in a blaze of glory, killing himself and all of his men?



I also don't think he realized the threat of the Blight until after most of the damage was done. And with the Orlesians, can you blame him? They were massing on the border of Fereldan, he fought for years to drive them out, he saw them butcher entire villages raping women and killing children, he wasn't about to let them invade. If it hadn't been a true blight his actions would have been the right actions in regards to the Orlesians.

[ValentineHeart82]

Suron wrote...

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

And no one will ever comment or read it, because it's too big to read and will get pushed down under a thousand other topics. Ah well, time, lost, forever.

you're in the wrong forums champ.  This isn't WoW...so take the WoW mentality back to the childrens board...kthx!

What? I posted the OP, I posted that response you responded to. I suspected that no one would read it because I've seen other post like this get buried.

[eschilde]

He could tell her that he abandoned the field and left Cailan for dead. That's what she was looking for. He wouldn't even give her that.

You know, even though you say that, I sort of feel like Loghain is the taciturn kind of guy who would avoid a discussion even if that was the truth, just because trying to explain it is too much of a pain. I mean, you're talking about a guy who has a lot on his plate at the moment, and having the 'Did you kill Cailin?' discussion with what he considers to be his spoiled daughter isn't something he really wants to get into. Like, even if he said that, she would only believe him if it was convenient to her.

[Dreogan]

I don't know. Sure, there's some very deep characters in the game... but then there's Sandal!

[ReubenLiew]

Don't diss the Sandal man, his story is the journey of epics!

[Faerell Gustani]

You present a very good analysis of the character depth and I think that's where the designers succeeded. However the plot at its core is still very basic and simple:

Defeat the Usurper

Stop the Blight



In this regard NWN and its sequels had better plots.

NWN base: stop the plague...but wait! sinister plot behind plague, gotta go stop that. Aribeth! How could you?!



NWN SoU: ...ok I actually forget the plot to this one beyond "fetch me my artifacts!"



NWN HotU: To Undermountain! Zomgz! Drow invasion! Take that foul drow! Wait WAT? Why am I in Hell now? Son-of-a...time to GTFO of Hell. Oh hi Aribeth, care to come along for the ride?



HotU was an amazing game that didn't get enough credit.

[RunCDFirst]

eschilde wrote...

He could tell her that he abandoned the field and left Cailan for dead. That's what she was looking for. He wouldn't even give her that.

You know, even though you say that, I sort of feel like Loghain is the taciturn kind of guy who would avoid a discussion even if that was the truth, just because trying to explain it is too much of a pain. I mean, you're talking about a guy who has a lot on his plate at the moment, and having the 'Did you kill Cailin?' discussion with what he considers to be his spoiled daughter isn't something he really wants to get into. Like, even if he said that, she would only believe him if it was convenient to her.

Cailan was her husband, she does have a right to know.

[Jab0r]

Don't diss the Sandal man, his story is the journey of epics!

Especially considering that you find him in a room, alone, surrounded by dozens of darkspawn corpses.

I have no doubt that Sandal could defeat the Blight single-handedly if something happened that made him want to do it.