165 réponses à ce sujet

[Suron]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Suron wrote...

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

And no one will ever comment or read it, because it's too big to read and will get pushed down under a thousand other topics. Ah well, time, lost, forever.

you're in the wrong forums champ.  This isn't WoW...so take the WoW mentality back to the childrens board...kthx!

What? I posted the OP, I posted that response you responded to. I suspected that no one would read it because I've seen other post like this get buried.

my mistake..I didn't look at the poster..just read the reply and thought someone was being a ******...in the end only making myself look like one

personally I don't agree with how you see things..not all of it..and I'm on my 5th play now..Loghain obviously was behind eamon's poisoning...he KNEW what was going on in the alienage..and he was in fact overstepping Anora..when he shouldn't have been.

Anora is a power hungry wench though...but she's not behind anything other then what you're told on screen.

and I don't think Loghain wanted Cailan to die..he was obviously trying to talk him out of the battle and not being on the front lines..I think had Cailan submited to Loghains warnings that Cailan would probably have been saved when Loghain pulled back..even if not by choice..but Loghain resigned to letting him die as he wasn't listening to (Loghains) reason.

And I'm not so sure about Morrigan being Flemmeth..I think the wanting of the child to have the Old God's taint has something to do with Flemmeth's grimoire and her extended lifespan..I think Morrigan wants to somehow use the child in that respect...for her own power gain.

So in essence I agree with some of what you say..but definately not all..and honestly some of the stuff I don't see how you view it as you do..but..we all have our "point of view" which makes the truths we cling to vary (or so Obi-Wan once said)

[ValentineHeart82]

RunCDFirst wrote...
He is the head of his army, not the other banns. All of them were sworn to assist Cailan, who is husband of Anora. She flies her husband's banner, not her father's. The scene were Teagan calls out Loghain is where Loghain is asking the banns to swear the fealty to his banner, not Anora/Cailan's.

But they had no fealty to Anora, by blood or otherwise. Her position as queen was questionable in their eyes, she had no son and she wasn't of royal blood or even noble blood for that matter. The only living relative known to be of royal blood was Eamon, and he had a wife meaning he could produce a Royal Heir. On top of that many suspected that Anora was barren and unable to produce an heir (just check rumors). Loghein didn't have to be of noble blood to be respected as a military leader because he had distinguished himself as a veteran and a war hero. He earned his titles in war.

He had to make it clear that rebellion would not be tolerated or there would have been a power struggle. Also before Cailan's death Loghein was the second in command and the royal tactician. Before you start thinking Cailins death was convient he also implored Cailan not to fight on the front lines and before that not to even mount the assault from Ostagar, Cailan was such a glory seeker he just had to have a battle like in the stories. I think that may have been the argument with the queen mentioned at Ostagar.

RunCDFirst wrote...
He could tell her that he abandoned the field and left Cailan for dead. That's what she was looking for. He wouldn't even give her that.

He already told her that he was dead, and if that even looked like the situation shame would have held his toung. What would you tell your daughter? "Oh I could have tried to save your husband but it was too risky so I ran. It was the right thing to do from a military standpoint, the battle was lost."

RunCDFirst wrote...
But that shouldn't be the case. Anora should be the one to go with the report with Loghain advising. During a war, the monarch doesn't stand to the side and let their general sit on the throne.

Anora had no military experience, and Loghein was the acting authority. Anora was skilled for running the Empire, but Loghein was the de-facto military commander and he had the experties in military matters.

RunCDFirst wrote...
I'm sure that's how Loghain justified his actions. But once you oust Loghain, is it not odd that Anora is now in the war council discussing strategy? She may not be the one coming up with the plans, but she's the one that okays them. That's what a ruler does in those situations.

With Loghein publically disgraced and now either dead or a Grey Warden he's in no position to fulfill his former obligations. If he's dead he's dead, and if he's a warden he's required to leave all that behind. That leaves Anora with no choice, she's the only one left with the authority to decide military matters at the time.

RunCDFirst wrote...
So you ratted her out in an attempt to save your own skin?

I was actually hoping that if I explained the situation they may ask Anora about it, confirm my story, and let us go. I figured her word would hold some sway.

RunCDFirst wrote...
Anora can't have Loghain knowing she's out undermining his authority.

Or that she's falsely accused him of kidnapping. You know, like she did with me?
 

RunCDFirst wrote...
If Loghain knew that she was going to support the PC at the Landsmeet, I have little doubt that he would have her locked up. She must sneak around, incognito if she is to be any help in ousting Loghain.

*shrug* I still think she was just being a conniving little viper. The quotes get broken after this point and it's getting pretty long so I need to post this and go to bed.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:30 .

[ValentineHeart82]

Suron wrote...

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Suron wrote...

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

And no one will ever comment or read it, because it's too big to read and will get pushed down under a thousand other topics. Ah well, time, lost, forever.

you're in the wrong forums champ.  This isn't WoW...so take the WoW mentality back to the childrens board...kthx!

What? I posted the OP, I posted that response you responded to. I suspected that no one would read it because I've seen other post like this get buried.

my mistake..I didn't look at the poster..just read the reply and thought someone was being a ******...in the end only making myself look like one

Happens to everyone at one point or another

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:11 .

[eschilde]

RunCDFirst wrote...

eschilde wrote...

He could tell her that he abandoned the field and left Cailan for dead. That's what she was looking for. He wouldn't even give her that.

You know, even though you say that, I sort of feel like Loghain is the taciturn kind of guy who would avoid a discussion even if that was the truth, just because trying to explain it is too much of a pain. I mean, you're talking about a guy who has a lot on his plate at the moment, and having the 'Did you kill Cailin?' discussion with what he considers to be his spoiled daughter isn't something he really wants to get into. Like, even if he said that, she would only believe him if it was convenient to her.

Cailan was her husband, she does have a right to know.

Yes, but I understand why he wouldn't want to try to explain himself. It's kind of hard to have that kind of discussion with someone you think of as a little girl. You can tell at the Landsmeet, if you decide to kill him, it's like he never accepted that she grew up.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Riot, there's also the point that Jowan never spoke to Loghein. Loghein may not have even known that Eamon was being poisoned in his name, Howe could have set the whole thing up.

Actually, wasn't Jowan recruited personally by Loghain? With  Jowan recognizing Loghain from having seen a portrait of the man earlier? Or am I thinking of that Elf in Redcliffe's tavern? Either one is pretty damning, to be honest. Either Loghain is spying on Eamon (and clearly expecting something to happen at the castle; probably black banners for the Arl's death), or he came right out and  hired Jowan as an assassin.

Edit: In fact, I'm almost certain it was Jowan, since the context of the quote I'm thinking of was someone imprisoned by the Templars. 

Also at Ostagar, I didn't see it as abandoning the king. Loghein saw that the battle was already lost and by the time the signal came it was too late. What was he to do, charge in and die in a blaze of glory, killing himself and all of his men?

Was the battle already lost? The Darkspawn were committed, he didn't think it was a blight, and he had the bulk of the army ready to charge in and nail the Darkspawn from behind. Honestly, I think he *could've* won the battle, if he's as skilled a general as he's played up to be. Remember during the council of war in Ostragar, there were some minor doubts, but even Duncan expected Loghain's plan to work.

Besides, Ostragar was excellent territory for the defender. It funneled the Darkspawn into an area where their superior numbers counted for less. If Loghain had flanked the Darkspawn as planned, I think Ostragar could've turned into a victory, albiet perhaps a costly one. And that's part of why his betrayal is so bitter. He took a victory and turned it into defeat.

As for the "Signal was too late" idea... I don't think it was. There was no mention of such a thing, and Ser Cauthrien, Loghain's right hand woman, expressed shock that he was retreating rather than pushing forward as according to the plan. She clearly didn't think the battle was unwinnable since her first words were "What?" and not "Naturally! There's too many darkspawn!" 

If it hadn't been a true blight his actions would have been the right actions in regards to the Orlesians.

Possibly. Accepting Orlesian military aid against a common and implacable foe is a bit different than rolling out the red carpets. Especially if those Orlesians are for the most part Grey Wardens and those who follow them.

Besides, even *if* he viewed Orlais as a threat, he was still criminally negligent when it comes to defending against the more obvious threat. Blight or no, there was a ginormous horde of Darkspawn raping and pillaging their way across Ferelden. Letting them move without reprisal is something no good ruler would ever do. Even if the Orlesians had designs upon Ferelden, they're a distant threat. There has to be a Ferelden to save, which, if Loghain wasn't stopped, there wouldn't be.  

Modifié par Cpl_Facehugger, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:22 .

[eschilde]

Was the battle already lost? The Darkspawn were committed, he didn't think it was a blight, and he had the bulk of the army ready to charge in and nail the Darkspawn from behind. Honestly, I think he *could've* won the battle, if he's as decent a general as he's played up to be. Remember during the council of war in Ostragar, there were some minor doubts, but even Duncan expected Loghain's plan to work.

I agree with that analysis, Loghain probably could have won the battle but would likely have sustained more losses than he would have preferred to.

Besides, even *if* he viewed Orlais as a threat, he was still criminally negligent when it comes to defending against the more obvious threat. Blight or no, there was a ginormous horde of Darkspawn raping and pillaging their way across Ferelden. Letting them move without reprisal is something no good ruler would ever do. Even if the Orlesians had designs upon Ferelden, they're a distant threat. There has to be a Ferelden to save, which, if Loghain wasn't stopped, there wouldn't be.

The horde was at Ostagar, which is located in Middle of Nowhere Down South, Fereldan. A bunch of marsh he didn't care about. Didn't he say he thought he'd be able to take care of it after the nobles were brought into line? Who cares about a few Chasind getting run over in the mean time?

[kormesios]

Have to disagree with the OP. Loghain is a great villain, but not because he's in some morally gray zone. It's because he's thoroughly evil while still being recognizably human. Loghain is complex only in the sense that he is a typical tyrant, as opposed to a possessed-by-demons type. Which I suppose is complex on a video game scale. But in normal terms, he's pretty straightforwardly vile.



He's convinced himself that he's the only fit man to rule, and from that flaw promptly destroys the kingdom. Hence his murder of the king and appointing himself regent for an adult queen--a thoroughly illegitimate power grab. (Adult rulers don't get regents; if a woman isn't entitled to rule in her own right, then you need to crown a new king.)



The opening betrayal not only murders the king, but the army with the king, and the Grey Wardens. Who then need to be framed and tortured. In the noble origin you learn Loghain knows about Howe's murder of the oldest noble family in Ferelden. He also goes along with the assassination, knows about the slavery, and wages war upon those who understand what he did and don't bow to him. This is the problem with tyrants: once they start down the path, they need to keep murdering better men than themselves to maintain power. As the saying goes, those who ride tigers dare not dismount.



But he knew exactly what was going on, and kept doing it. You don't become "gray" by feeling bad about what you do, not if you don't feel bad enough to stop.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

eschilde wrote...

I agree with that analysis, Loghain probably could have won the battle but would likely have sustained more losses than he would have preferred to.

Probably, but on the other tentacle, he could have potentially saved his supposedly good friend Cailan, plus whatever of Cailan's royal forces survived the battle. Then he could've simply ruled as he had been, the "power behind the throne" as it were. Or at least the military power behind the throne, since it's pretty obvious that Anora was the politician behind Cailan's throne.

The horde was at Ostagar, which is located in Middle of Nowhere Down South, Fereldan. A bunch of marsh he didn't care about. Didn't he say he thought he'd be able to take care of it after the nobles were brought into line? Who cares about a few Chasind getting run over in the mean time?

The problem is that he just let the Darkspawn move around willy nilly until whole fiefs/banns were getting gobbled up, like the one of that guy who lost his whole family to the darkspawn at the landsmeet. Arl Wulf I think? It's one thing to shrug off some marshland barbarians getting killed by Darkspawn. It's quite another when it's your bannorn and teryns being purged.

Basically, if he were paying attention, he should have realized that the Darkspawn threat, archdemon or no, was still very, very high. If he truly cared about Ferelden, he should've backed down from his course at least until the darkspawn were beaten back. Less "Kneel before I, your regent!" and more "This is a terrible defeat. The Wardens led us into a trap! We will need to replace the army lost at Ostragar if we are to survive!" Basically, he failed to take advantage of the fact that the Darkspawn are every Fereldan's boogieman in order to get the bannorn behind his banner. 

As it stands, without the Grey Warden and his army of foreigners, mages, and mercenaries, Ferelden would've fallen to the Darkspawn. 

Modifié par Cpl_Facehugger, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:38 .

[eschilde]

Probably, but on the other tentacle, he could have potentially saved his supposedly good friend Cailan.

Well, they weren't friends, the camp people say they'd been arguing for weeks over something or other. That's one thing. But my interpretation was that Loghain knew about the situation with the Couslands, Arl Eamon, and Arl Howe, and decided to save the troops loyal to him rather than killing off a good portion to save a king he didn't respect. Maybe Loghain didn't have a hand in the fall of the Couslands, but it's pretty likely he at least knew about Eamon and also likely he had a hand in it; if he didn't, the situation, at that point, was ideal for him to abandon Cailin.

The problem is that he just let the Darkspawn move around willy nilly until whole fiefs/banns were getting gobbled up, like the one of that guy who lost his whole family to the darkspawn at the landsmee. Arl Wulf I think? It's one thing to shrug off some marshland barbarians getting  killed by Darkspawn. It's quite another when it's the bannorn and teryns being purged.

Well, obviously he underestimated the darkspawn. But he was assuming there was no archdemon; in other words, he thought he'd be fighting an army of mindless monsters with no general. Should be a piece of cake compared to the Orlesians :b also, if I recall correctly, you see Bann Teagon mouth off when you get to Lothering, which is pre-Darkspawn all over the place (well, at least Lothering is still standing) and it's pretty likely the bannorn haven't yet been run over.

[InvaderErl]

Maybe Loghain didn't have a hand in the fall of the Couslands,

I suspect Loghain had made an agreement prior to the start of the Human noble origin with Howe to allow the massacre to go unpunished in exchange for his support as his right-hand man.

Its too convenient that Howe commits such a slaughter just before the king is killed thereby preventing any possible retribution and that the new ruler is extremely friendly with Howe and goes on to become close allies with him. It was an obvious scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:54 .

[Vicious]

There's some note in the game which pretty much states Harrowmont did indeed kill King Aeducan.



Bhelen's a jerk and a scumbag but it's what has to be done to change anything in a society like Orzammar.

[Mnemnosyne]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

On my first playthrough, my first impressions and gut reactions colored
some of my perceptions. At the tower of Ostagar I actually thought it
seemed pretty likely that Loghein was conspiring with the Darkspawn, I
mean seriously as ridiculous as that is.

...

I also noticed that the poisoning of Eamon wasn't clearly Loghein's doing. Jowan said himself that he never met Loghein directly, that means he most likely went through Howe or Anora. Anora would see Eamon as a threat to her place on the throne, and Howe had already proven his treachery.

...

They also seem more clear in Redcliff, though at the time of the decision you don't know what will happen if you go for help, and the blood magic option is a moral grey area.

On the first point, I still suspect Loghain tipped the darkspawn off on the plan, somehow.  I still have yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to why the darkspawn attacked the Tower of Ishal, unless Loghain somehow tipped them off.  Note the clues there: Loghain's people "discovered lower tunnels" that the guard outside the tower commented on never having seen (and we never saw ourselves when we went in, just a huge hole broken in through the floor - not something I'd call lower tunnels).  He kept everyone except his specially chosen people out of the tower.  He was clearly shocked and surprised that the signal was ever lit at all, you could see it on his face when you light the signal.  And finally, if your character has enough cunning, you can make a comment that's pretty significant there, as to why the darkspawn would attack the tower at all, unless they know the plan to light the beacon from there.

I have my suspicions as to why he did it, but I haven't had a playthrough in which my character would allow Loghain to live (although it was close, very close - my human noble considered letting him live, but the fact that he knew what Howe had done to her family, and rewarded him instead of punishing him tipped the scales) so I haven't actually talked to him.  I'm sure there's information on his actions and motivations if I can converse with him.

You're wrong about Jowan, he says just the opposite.  That Loghain personally met him, and he recognized him from paintings he'd seen of Loghain.

As for Redcliffe, I found it very dissapointing that there was no consequence for running off and going to get the mages, a journey which would take two days at minimum.  I have no idea why they decided to write it that way, because it doesn't make any sense to me and it's never even really explained or commented on at all, as to why it is that for two days the demon remained completely inactive, when she was clearly intelligent enough to realize that they were planning to get rid of her, and her only reasonable chance to escape was while the player is gone.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Do you really belive THE paranoid Loghain wouldn't know what Howe was doing? The Cousland massacre? He knows about it. Do we see him punishing or scolding or disagreeing with Howe? No. He actually seems irritated the word got out when you talk to him at Ostagar about it.

At the Landsmeet, he doesn't deny anything - he proceeds to defend his action.



He has depth, but the guilt is his.

And Ostagar - that wasn't a sound military decision. No way.

[Walina]

On my third playthrough I also noticed that Loghein had no direct contact with the Alienage and there was no clear indication that he knew of the slave trade. He did know that there was a plague in the alienage and that mages were there to do something, I don't believe he knew what the mages were doing with the elves and I don't believe he cared. He was being given war funds to look the otherway and he reasoned that the alienage was already lost, he likely thought that for the good of Fereldan he thought it a necessary evil.

**Beep**
Wrong, Loghain will admit the slavery at Landmeet, it was for money.

Modifié par Walina, 01 décembre 2009 - 07:53 .

[Auraad]

No, Loghain did much more than just leaving the King to his fate (which is the utmost treachery already (US laws are not ignoring this either!) and death IS the ONLY option for this crime in a medival setting).

He also had slavery going on and in one cutcene he ordered the crows to kill the hero ... so, death is really ok for him and he even accepts the punishment.



However, I admit that each character has several motivations and it's not easy to see through all motivations - this is very well done by the writers.

[Mnemnosyne]

After reading the entire thread, there's a couple other things I wanted to note, especially about the battle at Ostagar.

Loghain wasn't making a military decision based on available information when he gave the order to retreat: He had no available information. He and his forces were positioned in a location where they could not visually observe the battle or the darkspawn horde. That's why the signal was necessary in order to notify him when to attack. If he could just look down and see the battle, no signal would have been needed, since he could have clearly seen when the darkspawn were committed and commanded the charge right then.

Loghain never did seem to want to rule, at least not initially. He wanted to save Cailan, he just wanted to get rid of the Grey Wardens, it seemed. There's also the fact that he was strongly opposed to Maric allowing the Grey Wardens back into Ferelden in the first place - Levi tells you this, if I remember correctly.

His plan at Ostagar, if Cailan had listened to him and not been on the front lines, would likely have been to wait long enough for the Grey Wardens to be defeated, then 'grow suspicious' or concerned that the signal had not been lit, send out a scout to check on the situation, then at that point either follow through with the original plan or retreat and reform to defeat the darkspawn in another battle a day or two later - perhaps after getting more reinforcements from the Bannorn. Cailan dying complicated that, and the signal actually being lit, which he didn't expect, complicated it further, because some of the survivors began to question the retreat. Thus Ferelden destabilized, and he saw things getting worse and worse, but could no longer see a way to fix it other than to press forward.

My current assessment of what he actually wanted? To get rid of the Grey Wardens, for some reason, and then to show that Ferelden could defend itself even against the darkspawn, better than the legendary Grey Wardens could.

[car07ms]

Its really interesting just sitting here and reading what you guys have discussed. ^.^ I'm enjoying it!

[Lianaar]

Loghain was a peasant (or serf?) who proved to be dedicated and possessed enough to fight for his belief, and useful enough to become a hero and save Ferelden. But freeing Ferelden of Orlais does not take away him being dedicated, possessed and stubborn. Attributes which are great in war, but not so handy in this cocktail in peace.

Anora is ruling queen, but she is daughter of a terynn, who was born peasant.
Earl Eamon is related through marriage to the King. AND he is noble born AND respected AND has an army AND has a son.
Alistair is blood relative of the king (note, Eamon's word on this is enough for everyone to believe that) though will have difficulty to produce an heir and is obligated to the Grey Wardens.

Alistair's claim is the strongest due his blood, but the second best choice is Eamon.
However as the king is chosen by the most powerful noble families (though that power I believe is not the current military power, but more the heritage right of choosing the king). I think even Anora must be approved if she wants to go on ruling because she won't be crowned without it and we all know a king without a crown is no king. Legally saying.

Howe was fighting at the side of the king and he had a history too. Playing a woman, he tried to arrange a marriage between my PC and his son. Which might have changed the massacre of the keep. He wanted the keep, likely due to the fact that his family used to own it. However my PC refuses the marriage. Thus the only chance to get it is by force. Howe is NOT stupid. Not at all. I am sure he wouldn't have done this without the knowledge that he can get away with it. And there is only one way to get away with it. If the ruler approves. Of course my PCs families had ties to Orlais, which made it easier to explain why they had to fall.

Earl Eamon, the strongest candidate to throne after Alistair (who was meant to die in the battle of Ostagar) had a wife from Orlais. It might be that Howe wanted him dead instead of Loghain, but easily he can build on Loghain's Orlais hate, no? Howe alone is not powerful enough pull this off. And the mage accuses Loghain, as well as the elf. While the elf and the mage don't seem to know of each other.

Loghain wants to secure the independence of Ferelden. YET he gives operation right for the Trevinter Imperium within the Alianage???? I believe that only if he knew what they do. He is way too paranoid to not ask or know what they do. Or if not, then he is pretty selective in whom you need to be independent from. He doesn't deny slavery at all. He simply said: we can not feed them anyhow, they at least serve the country. It is war. War needs money.

Ostagar, yes, he does try to save Cailen. He was not happy that it is not the soldiers he picked that light the beacon. He is not happy the beacon are lit. Darkspawn swarm the only place only HE had access to. Not any other. He has no chance to see the battlefield, so he can not decide what the best thing to do is. And you think the strategy is bad? But hey, who made it in the first place? Oh my, LOGHAIN! The military genius. It was his idea to set things up this way from day one. The king argued with him, but accepted his plan as Loghain had more military practice. Oops.

How about the mage tower? There are hints at Loghain there too. Interesting.

Loghain simply ignores her daughter. Because you know, girls remain little girls with bruised knees and pigtails, no matter what. How can such a person actually make better decisions then their fathers? They don't need to be bothered with nuisances and dark necessities of life, such as war.

Loghain did indeed demand that the other military units follow him. And threatened that anyone who won't follow him dies. He never wanted civil war, and I think Howe didn't want it either.

Howe was the one who brought the assassin, but then if Howe did all his nasty things behind Loghain's back, why did he ask his permit for hiring the (antivan!!!) crows? Why not just hiring them anyway? And it was Loghain's nod that made it happen. He was conflicted, he was disgusted, but he took it as another nasty thing he has to do for Ferelden. He agreed.

And the biggest possible blow to his innocence was given by Ser Cauthrin, who backed down from the fight and asked my ELF PC to stop Loghain as he is not who he used to be. Cauthrin who was loyal to a fault, who did the best he could to support Loghain as long as she could. Who did not wish to have to chose between duty and loyalty. And chosing her duty she asked me to stop Loghain.

In a way she did what Loghain thought her to do. Duty over loyalty. Loghain did the same, he picked what he believed is his duty over his loyalty. He wasn't mean, not in the way that he enjoyed making people suffer or die. He didn't enjoy selling the elves into slavery. He didn't want to harm people. But they were casualties in the war. He was mean in the sense that he decided who has to make the sacrifices. (Though again, he didn't mind using Trevinter Imperium or Antiva, so in this sense he wasn't such a good Patriot.) He is complex, his own reasoning within his paradigmas are entirely understandable and logical. That makes him great. But it doesn't make him innocent or good.

I forgot to add, that the Grey Wardens were also from Orlais, right? I am not 100% sure on this one.

Modifié par Lianaar, 01 décembre 2009 - 08:49 .

[Mnemnosyne]

It should be noted that Loghain's major fault was his blindness to the truth and his anti-Orlesian obsession.

Beyond those things, his philosophy was essentially identical to that of the Grey Wardens - victory, no matter the cost.

[TuringPoint]

If Loghain had allowed for reinforcements from Orlais, the battle would've turned out better. He wouldn't have been forced to decide between possibly destroying the whole army or letting his king die.



If you let him live and talk to him, you see that his concern about Orlais far outweighed reason of any sort. Strategically, his plan after Ostagar didn't make any sense - it was just desperation.



So I still see him as at fault, just not in the way the game constantly suggests. He was no longer doing the best for Ferelden in his sacrifices.

[Lotion Soronarr]

I see Loghain abandoning any idea of sparing Cailan at the War Council.



He SMILES as he retreats. SMILES. At the hunderds of loyal Ferelden soldeirs dying. At his friends son and king dying.

He could have organized a covering retreat for the king. Heck, did his plan even entail a fallback/retreat/escape route for the king? He got used to getting it his way and Cailan putting his foot down did not set well with him.

[eschilde]

On the first point, I still suspect Loghain tipped the darkspawn off on the plan, somehow. I still have yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to why the darkspawn attacked the Tower of Ishal, unless Loghain somehow tipped them off. Note the clues there: Loghain's people "discovered lower tunnels" that the guard outside the tower commented on never having seen (and we never saw ourselves when we went in, just a huge hole broken in through the floor - not something I'd call lower tunnels). He kept everyone except his specially chosen people out of the tower. He was clearly shocked and surprised that the signal was ever lit at all, you could see it on his face when you light the signal. And finally, if your character has enough cunning, you can make a comment that's pretty significant there, as to why the darkspawn would attack the tower at all, unless they know the plan to light the beacon from there.

I have to say, Loghain may be a right bastard, but I seriously doubt he or anyone could get into a position to talk to darkspawn. Accusing him of somehow making a deal with them is pretty far-fetched.



I also agree that Loghain may have known about the Cousland massacre, but I don't know that he necessarily approved of it. It may have simply been a situation he took advantage of, as in, "Well, if Cailin lives, we'll do x; if he dies, we'll do y." I wonder that he intended to kill Cailin straight out or just decided losing his troops wasn't worth trying to save him, and the benefits to withdrawing far outweighed not doing so. After all, he knew losing at Ostagar would mean a lot of the standing army was wiped out; preserving troops loyal to him had a lot of benefits.



Loghain may have thought of Cailin as a spoiled brat who didn't know his right from left, but even so, Cailin was the king, he was his daughter's husband, and his best friend's son. Simply abandoning him would be a tough decision for someone like Loghain, who is at least extremely loyal to his country. That's why I wonder whether it was premeditated or whether he saw Ostagar as a lost cause and decided then to withdraw.



The Cousland massacre indicates that Loghain likely did have plans to get rid of Cailin, but it could also simply have been Howe acting on his own, not realizing the PC would get away (though I don't know what he would have done about Fergus, since even if you kill the rest of the family there's still an heir.. it would be nice to assume he figured Fergus would die at Ostagar, but how would he know that? It's just as easy to believe he intended to employ assassins or something to get rid of him.) The conversation with Loghain at Ostagar only indicates that he knew what happened and Cailin's intention to bring Howe to justice, which is easily believable considering that the king excuses himself to find Loghain after greeting you.



At the beginning of Ostagar, Cailin says something about Eamon wanting to come out to Ostagar ("He just wants in on the glory!") So Eamon must have still been healthy at that point. If he was poisoned before or during Ostagar, that would indicate again that Loghain definitely had the intention of getting Cailin killed; Loghain or Howe likely just made a preemptive strike regarding the throne directly after Ostagar. There was time.. it did take a couple of days for you to wake up, and then you had to actually travel to Lothering where you heard about the knights and the urn. It seems kind of squished for time if you think about it.. how long would Eamon have to be sick before Isolde decided to send the knights out? And they were on the road for awhile already when you actually get to Lothering. Wish there was a timeline to be found somewhere :S



I wonder if Loghain wasn't simply an opportunist, like Anora is. He saw what the situation was and tried to turn it to his advantage. I feel like that's more likely than a premeditated loss at Ostagar or death of Cailin. Not that I'm saying what he did was right, only that his intentions may not have been as bad as what people think, though the effects remain the same regardless. I'm not justifying what he did at all; if I didn't know Loghain was a playable character I would off him at the Landsmeet every time. He's a nasty piece of work. But I don't think he set out to Ostagar with the intention of getting Cailin killed to gain the throne for himself, or to wipe out a good portion of his military, for reasons stated above... maybe he sees the beacon and thinks, well, if Cailin dies, so be it, that's more convenient for me anyway, so I'll save my troops and get out of here.



As for why there was no escape route for Cailin, well.. from what it looked like, planning something like that for where Cailin was would have been impossible; whatever personal guard Cailin had in there seemed to be occupied with darkspawn, and a decision to retreat would have to be made by someone in Cailin's position, and he sure as heck wasn't going to do that, especially considering he was expecting Loghain to charge. The only way to save him was to follow through with the flank, which, well... you saw what happened. Cailin was pretty much at the most dangerous point for the army, which was, well, stupid, but he couldn't be convinced otherwise.

[Mnemnosyne]

I have to say, Loghain may be a right bastard, but I seriously doubt he
or anyone could get into a position to talk to darkspawn. Accusing him
of somehow making a deal with them is pretty far-fetched.

I would not say that he made a deal with them, no.  He doesn't seem the type, nor does he seem foolish enough to try to negotiate with them, given their attitude (although the general idea that they are unintelligent is clearly proven wrong with the fact that they are capable of forging armor and weapons.  (Tangent, but why would anyone think a species capable of the metallurgical knowledge needed to forge armor and weapons is mindless or animal-level is incomprehensible).

I also agree that Loghain may have known about the Cousland massacre,
but I don't know that he necessarily approved of it. It may have simply
been a situation he took advantage of, as in, "Well, if Cailin lives,
we'll do x; if he dies, we'll do y." I wonder that he intended to kill
Cailin straight out or just decided losing his troops wasn't worth
trying to save him, and the benefits to withdrawing far outweighed not
doing so. After all, he knew losing at Ostagar would mean a lot of the
standing army was wiped out; preserving troops loyal to him had a lot
of benefits.

Loghain may have thought of Cailin as a spoiled
brat who didn't know his right from left, but even so, Cailin was the
king, he was his daughter's husband, and his best friend's son. Simply
abandoning him would be a tough decision for someone like Loghain, who
is at least extremely loyal to his country. That's why I wonder whether
it was premeditated or whether he saw Ostagar as a lost cause and
decided then to withdraw.

But he couldn't have known the situation.  He ordered the retreat immediately upon seeing the signal (and being shocked that it was lit).  He didn't try to discover the situation, he didn't send out someone to scout and check on the situation, he ordered a retreat.  He clearly was not in a position from which he could directly observe the battle (otherwise what would be the point of a signal) so he could not have made a tactical assessment based on the current status of the fight.

I am sure he did not originally intend on killing Cailan, but at the strategy meeting where Cailan insisted on fighting at the front lines and would not listen to him, it's clear he made the decision that Cailan would die along with the rest of them if he wouldn't "see reason" from his point of view.  His grim facial expression and tone of voice when he says, "Yes, Cailan.  A glorious moment for us all." was a pretty clear indicator that he made the decision to write Cailan off as lost at that point.

The Cousland massacre indicates that Loghain likely did have plans to
get rid of Cailin, but it could also simply have been Howe acting on
his own, not realizing the PC would get away (though I don't know what
he would have done about Fergus, since even if you kill the rest of the
family there's still an heir.. it would be nice to assume he figured
Fergus would die at Ostagar, but how would he know that? It's just as
easy to believe he intended to employ assassins or something to get rid
of him.) The conversation with Loghain at Ostagar only indicates that
he knew what happened and Cailin's intention to bring Howe to justice,
which is easily believable considering that the king excuses himself to
find Loghain after greeting you.

I suspect the Cousland massacre was entirely Howe's doing, and his plan was to denounce the Couslands as traitors in some manner or another, just as he actually did when Loghain took control.  Loghain's only real crime there was that if the player is a human noble, then he knows the truth about what happened and does nothing about it.  He may or may not have known beforehand.

At the beginning of Ostagar, Cailin says something about Eamon wanting
to come out to Ostagar ("He just wants in on the glory!") So Eamon must
have still been healthy at that point. If he was poisoned before or
during Ostagar, that would indicate again that Loghain definitely had
the intention of getting Cailin killed; Loghain or Howe likely just
made a preemptive strike regarding the throne directly after Ostagar.
There was time.. it did take a couple of days for you to wake up, and
then you had to actually travel to Lothering where you heard about the
knights and the urn. It seems kind of squished for time if you think
about it.. how long would Eamon have to be sick before Isolde decided
to send the knights out? And they were on the road for awhile already
when you actually get to Lothering. Wish there was a timeline to be
found somewhere :S

The timeline issue is one of my biggest hiccups.  The knight at Lothering, I believe it is, tells you that Eamon fell ill before the battle at Ostagar, though.  Since we know that Loghain personally hired Jowan and told him to poison Eamon, we cannot claim this to be Howe's doing.  Why would Loghain do this if he didn't plan for Cailan to die, and therefore Eamon to be a threat to his bid for control?  Good question.  Perhaps he simply wanted Eamon out of the way since the Arl may advise Cailan differently.  Maybe Howe managed to convince Loghain that Eamon truly was a threat to Ferelden.  He did marry an Orlesian woman, after all, and Loghain's paranoia about the Orlesians seems to be his overriding character trait that pushes him beyond all sense of reason.  This is the only piece of evidence in my eyes that actually indicates to me that Loghain was planning for Cailan to die all along.  Everything else points to him considering Cailan a headstrong young boy who he can guide to the "right path" over time, and only writing him off after the strategy meeting.

I wonder if Loghain wasn't simply an opportunist, like Anora is. He saw
what the situation was and tried to turn it to his advantage. I feel
like that's more likely than a premeditated loss at Ostagar or death of
Cailin. Not that I'm saying what he did was right, only that his
intentions may not have been as bad as what people think, though the
effects remain the same regardless. I'm not justifying what he did at
all; if I didn't know Loghain was a playable character I would off him
at the Landsmeet every time. He's a nasty piece of work. But I don't
think he set out to Ostagar with the intention of getting Cailin killed
to gain the throne for himself, or to wipe out a good portion of his
military, for reasons stated above... maybe he sees the beacon and
thinks, well, if Cailin dies, so be it, that's more convenient for me
anyway, so I'll save my troops and get out of here.

I don't think he planned to lose at Ostagar at all.  Being a brilliant strategist, I suspect his plan had some trick up it's sleeve, so he could charge in and save the day, after the Grey Wardens had all been defeated.  He saw the Grey Wardens as a bigger threat than the darkspawn, I believe, primarily because they wanted to call in significant amounts of reinforcements from Orlais.  Remember that it has been 400 years since the last Blight, and people thought the darkspawn permanently defeated after the Battle of Aysleigh.  He did not see the darkspawn as a serious threat, but having spent much of his life defending his country against Orlais, he saw them as the overriding threat, and the darkspawn merely as an excuse for their troops to come into Ferelden again.  He probably saw the Grey Wardens of Orlais as equivalent to the Orlesian forces themselves, too.  And, he was against allowing Grey Wardens into Ferelden even back when Maric let them in, perhaps because he knew the truth about Sophia's rebellion, and therefore did not consider them a neutral party, but a potential arm of the Orlesian forces, since they had shown themselves once before to be willing to oppose a king and try to overthrow the nation.

[ValentineHeart82]

Not to mention that a loss at Ostagar was a slight on Logheins personal honor, that he implored Cailan not to fight on the front line, that he called Cailan's plan foolish and said he wouldn't listen to reason, and that Cailan was the one unwilling to wait for the Redcliff reinforcements which were a necessary part of Loghein's plan.



I think Howe was behind the poisoning or the Arwl, or Anora, because I confronted Jowan and he said he didn't meat Loghein directly. Also, Loghein showed visible disgust at the thought of sending the crows after me, Howe convinced him. Either Howe must have been there whispering in his ear like a serpent or Howe was most likely the one who set the Redcliff incident up.

[Mnemnosyne]

Do the conversation with Jowan again. He specifically says that the teyrn himself spoke with him. He recognized him from paintings he'd seen of Loghain.