165 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

eschilde wrote...
As for why there was no escape route for Cailin, well.. from what it looked like, planning something like that for where Cailin was would have been impossible; whatever personal guard Cailin had in there seemed to be occupied with darkspawn, and a decision to retreat would have to be made by someone in Cailin's position, and he sure as heck wasn't going to do that, especially considering he was expecting Loghain to charge. The only way to save him was to follow through with the flank, which, well... you saw what happened. Cailin was pretty much at the most dangerous point for the army, which was, well, stupid, but he couldn't be convinced otherwise.

Nay, doesn't make sense. The officers at Ostagar were confident they can score a decisive victory even if outnumbered, due to excellent defensive positions. The flanking could have completely turned the battle around.
Nothing I was leads me to belive Loghain regreated the retreat.. .he SMILES while he's pulling back.


@ ValentineHeart82
Yes, Loghain did act very unreasonable. He had little contact with reality due to his orlesian obsession.

And he was clearly smiling after he ordered the retreat. This is not disputable.

[Lianaar]

I disagree with you. Family ties, being it to alive or not alive members of the royal family does make a difference. It is a prestige, and that prestige matters a lot when nobility chooses royalty.

Being member of a family matters a lot. No matter how. You can check out the Meroving family or the Borgias on that note. Marriage was a political alliance between two FAMILIES, not between two people. The person themselves matter little in that relation. Eamon's family and the royal family made a political alliance that remained even after the death of Maric's wife. It must have had agreements on lands and incomes as well as titles and political positions. As usual such are part of the marriage agreements between royalty and nobility.



If you see marriage as an institute of love, then I understand your point of view. However I see marriage of the era (as much as we can talk about RL eras in regards of the game) as an economical and political treaty. That treaty empowered the families involved. Anyone related to the royal family (even via marriage) has a claim to the throne if the bloodline dies out.



Not only the queen, but relatives of the queen can come into account. As royal families of other nations or simply powerful nobles.

[Mnemnosyne]

tmp7704 wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

The way I see it, for every player that chose to tell the truth about Anora during their escape, is the classic example of the Paladin ; Virtue before logic.
Otherwise known as Lawful Stupid

My elf rogue had injury from the fight with Howe and it said: "Head concussion, penalty to Cunning".

With that in mind i just couldn't resist taking the stupid way to try and get myself alive out of that particular scenario

It's not stupid at all, and Anora backstabbing you by claiming you were kidnapping her put a really bad taste in my noble human's mouth, since she's essentially a good person overall, and she takes betrayal personally.

There were two possible resolutions to that if she had admitted the truth: Ser Cauthrien accepts the truth, or she tries to haul you in anyway and you kill her anyway.  The only reason for her not to back you up is if she thinks Ser Cauthrien is going to win if she decides to attack anyway.  Essentially she sacrifices you and tries to make her escape.

This is entirely logical from a pragmatic standpoint in her position, but hardly loyal.  In the end I made her Queen anyway, mostly because Alistair didn't actually want the job, and after having time to cool down and think about who'd actually make a better ruler, but if Anora didn't have Plot Immunity and the ability to instantly dissappear before the fight starts, my character would have killed her along with Cauthrien.  Heh.

[Vormaerin]

Lianaar wrote...

Not only the queen, but relatives of the queen can come into account. As royal families of other nations or simply powerful nobles.

They become people of Import becuase they generally get benefits from the Queen.    And they frequently become hated if the Queen is overly generous to them (Especially if the queen is foreign).   

Eamon's sister has been dead a long time...fifteen years or more.   He's obviously a respected man of influence.  That may have been true before Maric married his sister or it may not.    But there's nothing about saying "Maric's wife was my sister" that would get him votes in the Landsmeet that he doesn't already have.

You are conflating popularity with claim.   He may have gained prestige (or enemies) in the past from the alliance, but it does nothing for his /claim/.      And Eamon knows that.   He'd lose straight up against Loghain both in legitimacy and popularity, which is why he takes the option of trumpeting Alistair's ancestry.   He's hoping that the bloodline combined with his support will sway others.    Which it doesn't, unless you cut deals with Anora and uncover all of Howe's dark dealings.

[Lianaar]

I explain how he has claim, which he proclaims having.

I asked him why he isn't running in the let's be king competition and he said that while he has a claim through marriage, he prefers the claim of blood as it is stronger.

He didn't strike me as a liar. And us such I believe him having a claim in Ferelden.

I also say that in monarchies where the king gets CHOSEN such factors matter. They are not written laws, but they are part of Common Law and Soft Law. Especially in the fragmanted medieval European law.

[eschilde]

If you see marriage as an institute of love, then I understand your point of view. However I see marriage of the era (as much as we can talk about RL eras in regards of the game) as an economical and political treaty. That treaty empowered the families involved. Anyone related to the royal family (even via marriage) has a claim to the throne if the bloodline dies out.

If you say that, I don't really see how Eamon's claim is better than Anora's. She did marry the king. No, her family's history isn't long, but she is a noble. She's proven herself as a good ruler if what people have to say about it counts for anything. A king dying with no heir always results in a cluster****, it's kind of debatable who has the better claim. Eamon's claim is not necessarily worse than Anora's, but it's not better, either.

Nay, doesn't make sense. The officers at Ostagar were confident they can score a decisive victory even if outnumbered, due to excellent defensive positions. The flanking could have completely turned the battle around.
Nothing I was leads me to belive Loghain regreated the retreat.. .he SMILES while he's pulling back.

I didn't say he regretted it. I said he may have made the decision on the spot, as in he may not have decided before seeing the lit beacon. I don't know about his smiling, maybe he did, maybe he didn't, to me that's kind of irrelevant. Obviously he knew withdrawing was leaving the rest of the army to die, including Cailin; that doesn't necessarily mean it was premeditated, though.

Which officers were confident of victory? Cailin was, but of course he was, he was confident about the whole thing. Duncan agreed after Cailin assured him. Loghain naturally would appear to be confident. I don't really know what other officers you had a chance to talk to?

Cailin had the most authority on the field in the position he was; I think it would have been difficult for Loghain to get to him to pull him out even if he wanted to do so, which he didn't, and there wasn't another person there in a position to tell him to retreat as far as I could tell. It's kind of strange, but it's like Cailin didn't have his own personal Cauthrien looking out for him.. anyway, my point is, even if there was a retreat plan, Cailin probably ignored it assuming Loghain _would_ be there to flank. You could say Cailin's trust in Loghain's ability and loyalty is what killed him, though considering the situation, he might have been crushed to death regardless of a charge.

Modifié par eschilde, 01 décembre 2009 - 10:45 .

[ValentineHeart82]

But Anora isn't a Noble, her Father earned Titles and she married into Royalty but she's still a commoner by birth. That's one of the key in game arguments against her being on the throne, not only is she not of Royal Blood, she's not even of noble blood. On top of that she's rumored to be Barren. Eamon's claim to the throne would be by Royal Blood, and by the fact that he can produce an heir.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 01 décembre 2009 - 11:39 .

[ValentineHeart82]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

@ ValentineHeart82
Yes, Loghain did act very unreasonable. He had little contact with reality due to his orlesian obsession.

I disagree. They knew of the Genlocks but they didn't know of the Ogres and the hoard was far larger than they anticipated. Also Cailan refused to wait for Eamon's reinforcements because he wanted all the glory. Loghein was forced to go in with half the number of men he had planned for and he faced an enemy much larger, much better armed, and far better organized than he had anticipated. He also implored Cailan not to be on the front line.

The Orlesian support wasn't an option in his eyes because he had seen them hunt Fereldanites for sport, he had seen then rape women and butcher children, he spent years fighting to drive them out, and he wasn't about to let them march back in. He didn't think it was a Blight until it was too late, given what he knew and what he faced his actions were the only reasonable actions.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
And he was clearly smiling after he ordered the retreat. This is not disputable.

I didn't see a smile, but I saw what you percieved as a smile. What I saw was a grimicing scowl that faded into a normal facial expression as he turned.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 02 décembre 2009 - 12:00 .

[Mnemnosyne]

You know, one issue I see constantly both in game and when discussing it is about waiting for reinforcements, which makes no sense whatsoever to me. They're not attacking the darkspawn - they're defending a static position. To "wait for reinforcements" would seem to imply abandoning Ostagar and fighting in a location that is not a fortress specifically built to defend against attacks coming from the Korcari Wilds. Holding a defensive position like that is better than having a force two or three times the size.

You don't have the luxury of waiting for reinforcements if you're the one being attacked.

[eschilde]

But Anora isn't a Noble, her Father earned Titles and she married into Royalty but she's still a commoner by birth. That's one of the key in game arguments against her being on the throne, not only is she not of Royal Blood, she's not even of noble blood. On top of that she's rumored to be Barren. Eamon's claim to the throne would be by Royal Blood, and by the fact that he can produce an heir.

Really? I thought since she was the daughter of a Teryn she was a noble? I'm confused how this system works. What's the difference between a title and nobility?



Yeeeahh.. the barren thing.. she says 'Cailin had his women,' or something if you try to hook her up with Alistair while you're in a romance with him, you'd think there'd be a couple of other bastard kids running around.. maybe it was Cailin who couldn't have kids!



Anora is the queen, Eamon is related to the royal family through marriage. I really think the person who has the better claim, in this case and probably in most king-has-no-heir-by-blood cases, is the one with the better military :| which can be translated to support from the bannorn I guess.

[ValentineHeart82]

Koyasha wrote...

You know, one issue I see constantly both in game and when discussing it is about waiting for reinforcements, which makes no sense whatsoever to me. They're not attacking the darkspawn - they're defending a static position. To "wait for reinforcements" would seem to imply abandoning Ostagar and fighting in a location that is not a fortress specifically built to defend against attacks coming from the Korcari Wilds. Holding a defensive position like that is better than having a force two or three times the size.
You don't have the luxury of waiting for reinforcements if you're the one being attacked.

You know you make a good point there. Reinforcements could have never reached Ostagar in time no matter who sent them.

[SnakeStrike8]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

You know, one issue I see constantly both in game and when discussing it is about waiting for reinforcements, which makes no sense whatsoever to me. They're not attacking the darkspawn - they're defending a static position. To "wait for reinforcements" would seem to imply abandoning Ostagar and fighting in a location that is not a fortress specifically built to defend against attacks coming from the Korcari Wilds. Holding a defensive position like that is better than having a force two or three times the size.
You don't have the luxury of waiting for reinforcements if you're the one being attacked.

You know you make a good point there. Reinforcements could have never reached Ostagar in time no matter who sent them.

The Fereldans did engage the Darkspawn on three seperate occasions and won al lthree times, didn't they? Seems to me that they chose Ostagar as the position for the final battle, a plan that failed anyway when Cailan decided to rush out at the Darkspawn. And on that note, let me add that Ostagar is a TERRIBLE defensive position. No walls or gates? No moat? The damn ruin isn't even on high ground!

[eschilde]

The Fereldans did engage the Darkspawn on three seperate occasions and won al lthree times, didn't they? Seems to me that they chose Ostagar as the position for the final battle, a plan that failed anyway when Cailan decided to rush out at the Darkspawn. And on that note, let me add that Ostagar is a TERRIBLE defensive position. No walls or gates? No moat? The damn ruin isn't even on high ground!

But.. but.. there was a bridge where you could put archers! And, hm.. there was a gate.. to the Wilds.. those Chasind are a scary bunch.



(but seriously, agreed, wtf.)

[ValentineHeart82]

eschilde wrote...

But Anora isn't a Noble, her Father earned Titles and she married into Royalty but she's still a commoner by birth. That's one of the key in game arguments against her being on the throne, not only is she not of Royal Blood, she's not even of noble blood. On top of that she's rumored to be Barren. Eamon's claim to the throne would be by Royal Blood, and by the fact that he can produce an heir.

Really? I thought since she was the daughter of a Teryn she was a noble? I'm confused how this system works. What's the difference between a title and nobility?

Yeeeahh.. the barren thing.. she says 'Cailin had his women,' or something if you try to hook her up with Alistair while you're in a romance with him, you'd think there'd be a couple of other bastard kids running around.. maybe it was Cailin who couldn't have kids!

Anora is the queen, Eamon is related to the royal family through marriage. I really think the person who has the better claim, in this case and probably in most king-has-no-heir-by-blood cases, is the one with the better military :| which can be translated to support from the bannorn I guess.

I thought Eamon was the younger brother of Cailan's father, which made him second in line for the throne until Cailan was born. The reason he was raising Alister was because he couldn't have his brother disgraced with a bastard. He may have renounced his claim in favor of his Brother and Nephew though, but with both dead he could come back and claim it.

Loghein's title was earned by military service, not by noble birth. His daughter was by all rights a commoner taken as Queen by Cailan just like his mother. Her position as queen first depended on her marraige to Cailan, and with his death the only thing keeping her on the throne was the support of the Banns. Alister has the strongest claim to the throne, as by blood right he can outright take it even without the support of the Banns.

[ValentineHeart82]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Koyasha wrote...

You know, one issue I see constantly both in game and when discussing it is about waiting for reinforcements, which makes no sense whatsoever to me. They're not attacking the darkspawn - they're defending a static position. To "wait for reinforcements" would seem to imply abandoning Ostagar and fighting in a location that is not a fortress specifically built to defend against attacks coming from the Korcari Wilds. Holding a defensive position like that is better than having a force two or three times the size.
You don't have the luxury of waiting for reinforcements if you're the one being attacked.

You know you make a good point there. Reinforcements could have never reached Ostagar in time no matter who sent them.

The Fereldans did engage the Darkspawn on three seperate occasions and won al lthree times, didn't they? Seems to me that they chose Ostagar as the position for the final battle, a plan that failed anyway when Cailan decided to rush out at the Darkspawn. And on that note, let me add that Ostagar is a TERRIBLE defensive position. No walls or gates? No moat? The damn ruin isn't even on high ground!

Hmmm you're right they were attacking the Darkspawn and in doing so they were goading an attack. In fact the only way for them to prepare for the Darkspawn seige that wasn't already coming was to go out and goad the dark spawn, leading them to Ostagar... That may well be what's supposed to have happened. We may find out in the Return to Ostagar DLC.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 02 décembre 2009 - 01:32 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Finally someone else who got to understand Loghain. Well done op.



About Bhelen and Harrowmont. I favor Bhelen as well, but I think it's an over statement to say that Harrowmont is a fascist. Harrowmont is a conservative traditionalist (aka stagnating) xenophobe and a noble pleaser. Fascism is a political and social ideology that has little to do with Harrowmont. In fact, Fascism is by design a populist ideology, with no "casteless" or any kind of caste system. Bhelen is the populist progressive despot.

[eschilde]

I thought Eamon was the younger brother of Cailan's father, which made him second in line for the throne until Cailan was born. The reason he was raising Alister was because he couldn't have his brother disgraced with a bastard. He may have renounced his claim in favor of his Brother and Nephew though, but with both dead he could come back and claim it.

What? No? I'm pretty sure when you wake him up at Redcliffe he insists on putting Alistair forward because his claim is only by marriage.. pretty sure he's related to Cailin's mother, not father.

Yes, I agree that Loghain earned his title through the military but, being raised to a Teryn is the same as being raised to nobility? Am I just confused on what a Teryn actually is? I thought it was similar to an Arl/Bann title..

Modifié par eschilde, 02 décembre 2009 - 01:39 .

[Harcken]

The characters were great, complex, and unique. However, that doesn't necessarily mean the story is complex. I felt the darkspawn story was just way too generic and boring, it didn't shock me, it didn't amaze me, and it didn't leave me wanting more (god I hope the darkspawn story is over). The thing that makes a story interesting to me is one shrouded in mystery.



Although I've got a few beefs with mass effect, that story accomplished what I love. Every little mission revealed more and more, some things I was convinced are true were shown to be completely wrong. Neverwinter Nights 2 also did a good job with this, they intertwined many of the games side quests with the main quest and every hour or so of questing rewarded you with a cut scene or dialogue that revealed more and more of the plot to you. I love game narratives that keep you guessing and just keep you on the edge of the seat wanting to learn more.



The darkspawn just didn't accomplish that. The whole game revealed nothing new about them, except how they breed. Evil army, rises up every now and then, destroy. No vast plot, no secrecy; I knew everything about the darkspawn right after Ostagar and felt the main quest ended there, up until the obvious final fight of killing the archdemon. Hopefully the main villian(s) in DA2 is more complex, more menacing, multi-faceted, and shrouded in mystery.

[eschilde]

The darkspawn just didn't accomplish that. The whole game revealed nothing new about them, except how they breed. Evil army, rises up every now and then, destroy. No vast plot, no secrecy; I knew everything about the darkspawn right after Ostagar and felt the main quest ended there, up until the obvious final fight of killing the archdemon. Hopefully the main villian(s) in DA2 is more complex, more menacing, multi-faceted, and shrouded in mystery.

I'm not sure if it's accurate to call the darkspawn the main villains.. they're practically a sideshow in the storyline. Well, more like a natural disaster, I guess. You can't call a volcano eruption a villain. The real villains are the ones who put their own agendas over fixing the problem..

[eschilde]

Actually, on that note, I was kind of disappointed with the Archdemon. It was supposed to be intelligent, but in the final battle it was just a huge hp-d monster with a lot of minions to throw at you... it really seemed like there should have been more to that.

[tmp7704]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Loghein's title was earned by military service, not by noble birth.

This doesn't seem to be very different from the player's own "noble lineage" in the human noble origin, though -- the Couslands are said to be descendants of some captain of the guard who took both the castle and the title after the original arl who owned it got murdered by his wife (Flemeth). And Highever is a teyrnir because of how well one of the Couslands did in a war against werewolves. The concept of nobility in Ferelden appears rather fluid and tied mostly to the ability to own land and be able to defend it from others.

[Inakhia]

Koyasha wrote...

Okay, I agree with the forging thing, but I'm sticking to my point that
there is no way to take a diplomatic route with the darkspawn. Also,
it's mentioned somewhere that the darkspawn without an archdemon isn't
as big a deal (well, to surfacers anyway, obviously it's a huge problem
to the dwarves.) Since Loghain didn't think it was a Blight, and
therefore no archdemon, I assume he assumed he could take care of it
without too many issues.

Oh, I agree.  I think I forgot to make my point, I got carried away on the tangent.  Anyway, he didn't have to make an actual deal with them.  Somehow letting them know the the plan, or even simply leading them to the Tower in some way so they would attack it would have been enough to get them to attack it.

...I agree with that, but if he had won the battle at Ostagar maybe the
Orlesian Wardens wouldn't have been needed. Isn't that more
straightforward than considering Cailin collateral damage?

This is the part I have the most issues with, overall.  You're basically completely correct here.  The only reason for him to abandon Cailan if he thought that winning the battle would end the darkspawn threat would be to take over the throne, theoretically.  Unless he saw the Grey Wardens as an even greater long-term threat to Ferelden.  If he could defeat the darkspawn after the Grey Wardens had been defeated, and make them look like they betrayed the Fereldan forces, that would have two beneficial effects from his point of view.  First, Grey Wardens would no longer be considered needed to fight the darkspawn, since Loghain won without them, and second, they could outlaw Wardens in Ferelden again.

It seems shaky logic, but the only other reasonable possibility to me is that he thought the battle was unwinnable in the first place, and that doesn't make much sense, since he didn't object to the plan as a whole at the strategy meeting, and Duncan thought the plan would work to win the battle, even though he knew it would not end the Blight.  What other reason could he have for retreating as soon as he sees the beacon, without even seeing what the situation was down where Cailan is?

Just to remind you,. in that first war meeting where everyone is discussing their plans, Cailen quite clearly says 'Your plan," to Loghain. Its Loghains plan in the first place. He knows the enemies strengths and numbers. He just doesn't believe this is a true blight and see it purely as a way to get rid of a king he has *no* respect for. A King under the dangerous influence of Orlesians. Who is willing to invite the would be conquerors back into the country and such a 'flimsy', to his mind, excuse.
By abandoning the field he signed the death warrant for his King and the Grey Wardens. Thus getting rid of two problems with one simple plan.
It would have worked, *Had* the Orlesians been a real threat and *had* the darkspawn not been a real Blight.
As it was, he was simply paranoid to the point of delusional.
As for Anora, She neither betrayed me, In point I think we where found sneaking out of Howes by Cuthrian and I was going to give up, but got the, 'Well. we're here already, why not fight it out" response from Alistair of all people. Anora and Morrigan then escaped. Nor did she destroyed the Alienage, in fact she turned out to be a brilliant queen who gave the elves back some land for their own. Ostagar and surrounds I think. Tho true to form tensions did arise in later years apparently.
The first time when I spared Loghain, she didn't ask for Alistair's head I think, but she did demand he relinquish all claims to the throne and effectively banished him.
All depends on the choices you make, as to how the world turns out. I simply tried to be honest and do the right thing by other people and it went surprisingly well.

[SnakeStrike8]

eschilde wrote...

Actually, on that note, I was kind of disappointed with the Archdemon. It was supposed to be intelligent, but in the final battle it was just a huge hp-d monster with a lot of minions to throw at you... it really seemed like there should have been more to that.

Me too. If this thing is supposed to be the leader of the darkspawn horde, I'd have hoped for some actual strategizing on its part. But no, swarm tactics all around. Foolishness. I mean, I get that the archdemon has a ton of darkspawn at its command, but even so...

[Ashander23]

You played the political game. That's all.



Maybe I'm reading too much into this (although I'm not sure that's possible... this is really, really deep) but is it possible that this Anora was a GREAT Queen idea is just lending more to the "Means Justify the End" theme this game so heavily employs?



Anora is a scared little girl. Her fire is bred by her knowledge that she is out of place, and she will not be IN place until she is accepted as Royalty. How she gets accepted is certainly not a reflection of her rule.



Isn't it odd that so many perceived evils must be performed for a 'good' queen to go on the throne? Is it possible that people 'perceive' her as good because she was once like them. In many ways, is still like them? Is it not possible that Loghain was propped up by Maric for saving his life? That neither Anora of Loghain were actually great leaders, but leaders propped up by history, luck, and unscrupulous, powerful allies?



Is it not also strange that Loghain would hate the Orlesians so much, and yet sign a 'trade' agreement with them? For Elves, nonetheless? Anyone think that he was protecting someone else by brushing off the impact of those actions, after the fact, and taking the blame for what he perceived to be the greater good? He admits that Anora will be a good queen, but even he says that is only because there is no one better still alive.



There are alot of things about Anora's rule, and Anora's character, that we don't know. Perhaps she openned up the land to the Elves because there were no more people she trusted to rule the land, and the Elves posed no threat to her or Ferelden? Perhaps they are a convenient southern defense?



Or perhaps, just perhaps, the land she granted was not desired by any human lord because of the damage from the blight, and the Brecilian forest is not fit for life at all... as we already know.



Perhaps Anora's concerns about Ostagar are not for the death of Cailan... but for his life. Perhaps her plan was to eliminate ALISTAIR, not Cailan? After all... Cailan is her only solid claim to the throne. If he is dead... so is her legitimate claim. And with him gone, Alistair's claim strengthens mightily.



Loghain did not want this battle at all. He understood the futility, and the arguements with the king were to save him from a folly. "Trust the Grey Warden's too much" is what he said. And, after all, he was right. The Archdemon did NOT appear, and the blight was much better organized than the legends (written by those not at any battle) would have anyone believe.



That may not make any sense, but hey,,, it's possible.

[Drunkencelt]

1. Loghain came up with the plan an Ostagar. He designed the defense, which means he willingly murdered the king and the grey wardens.

2. If Morrigan is really flemeth even tho I killed her, and if you leave her alive it says she kills Morrigan, I would prolly never trust Bioware again.

3. Annora does not betray you if yuo agree to support her, unless your a human noble that says you will if she marries you. Then she still stabs you in the back.

Modifié par Drunkencelt, 02 décembre 2009 - 03:20 .