165 réponses à ce sujet

[Vormaerin]

eschilde wrote...


Yes, I agree that Loghain earned his title through the military but, being raised to a Teryn is the same as being raised to nobility? Am I just confused on what a Teryn actually is? I thought it was similar to an Arl/Bann title..

Bann is the lowest level of Nobility.   It is the equivalent of Baron.   Arl is the next step up, its an Earl.   Teryn is the highest level.  There's only three (one of whom is the King).  Its the equivalen to Duke.

This snooty "I'm a noble and he's a commoner by birth" attitude is largely post medieval.   There were german Knights who were serfs (Ministeriales).   It was far from unheard of for skilled warriors in England and elsewhere to rise by the nobility by skill at arms.   Anyone who did knights' service was a knight.  France, Russia, and other places had 'service' nobles as well.    The hyper obsession with nobility ancestry developed with the decline of the military aristocracy.

Regardless, Anora's father was one of the highest lords of the realm and she herself was Queen.  There's no disputing that she was a noble.

[eschilde]

Vormaerin wrote...

eschilde wrote...


Yes, I agree that Loghain earned his title through the military but, being raised to a Teryn is the same as being raised to nobility? Am I just confused on what a Teryn actually is? I thought it was similar to an Arl/Bann title..

Bann is the lowest level of Nobility.   It is the equivalent of Baron.   Arl is the next step up, its an Earl.   Teryn is the highest level.  There's only three (one of whom is the King).  Its the equivalen to Duke.

This snooty "I'm a noble and he's a commoner by birth" attitude is largely post medieval.   There were german Knights who were serfs (Ministeriales).   It was far from unheard of for skilled warriors in England and elsewhere to rise by the nobility by skill at arms.   Anyone who did knights' service was a knight.  France, Russia, and other places had 'service' nobles as well.    The hyper obsession with nobility ancestry developed with the decline of the military aristocracy.

Regardless, Anora's father was one of the highest lords of the realm and she herself was Queen.  There's no disputing that she was a noble.

I thought Teryn/Arl were somewhat similar, I agree that Bann is the lowest of the three, but, wasn't Bryce Cousland referred to as both Teryn Cousland and Arl of Highever? I could be remembering wrong.. time to crack it open again...

[Vormaerin]

Ashander23 wrote...



Isn't it odd that so many perceived evils must be performed for a 'good' queen to go on the throne?

Is it not also strange that Loghain would hate the Orlesians so much, and yet sign a 'trade' agreement with them? For Elves, nonetheless?


Or perhaps, just perhaps, the land she granted was not desired by any human lord because of the damage from the blight, and the Brecilian forest is not fit for life at all... as we already know.

 

What perceived evils are you talking about?   She's been Queen the entire time.    Its only when she turns against her father that there's any doubt about her authority.     And to have her ruling at the end, pretty much the only thing that is necessary is that you don't deliberately force her out in favor of Alistair.   Nothing "evil" has to happen.   Evil is why she might not be Queen...

Loghain signed a deal with the Tevinters, not the Orlesians.  So that bit of speculation is straight out wrong.

The chances of running into a situation where no one would want the land is pretty miniscule.   There's no indication that she settles the elves in a radioactive wasteland or anything of the sort.

[Vormaerin]

No, the lore book clearly states that Teryn established the arls. Originally, everyone was a Bann. Those Bann who were tough enough that other Banns swore allegiance to them became known as Teryn. The arls were appointed by the Teryn to command castles and lands that the Teryn couldn't control directly. Teryn have banns and arls as vassals. Arls don't have vassal nobles, just knights.

[eschilde]

Vormaerin wrote...

No, the lore book clearly states that Teryn established the arls. Originally, everyone was a Bann. Those Bann who were tough enough that other Banns swore allegiance to them became known as Teryn. The arls were appointed by the Teryn to command castles and lands that the Teryn couldn't control directly. Teryn have banns and arls as vassals. Arls don't have vassal nobles, just knights.

Oh, right.. I remember the tutor guy yammering something about that at me during the human noble origin.. yeah.. it disappeared into the yawning chasm between my ears :S

[ValentineHeart82]

@Ashander23

Loghein signed papers allowing Tevinter Mages to operate in the Alienage in exchange for war funds. He never signed anything giving them the right to trade slaves and he sure as hell never signed anything giving the Orlesians permission to be there, and he never would.

The Orlesians hunted Fereldens for sport, butchered children, then raped their mothers, quite literally. Loghein fought many battles to drive them out and he'd sooner die than let them back in.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 02 décembre 2009 - 03:57 .

[tmp7704]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Loghein signed papers allowing Tevinter Mages to operate in the Alienage in exchange for war funds. He never signed anything giving them the right to trade slaves

Please, let's not get silly in the attempts to make Loghain appear innocent here.

The item in game is described as:

"Slaver documents: these documents authorize the removal of elves from Denerim's alienage. They bear the seal of Teyrn Loghain Mac Tir."

what sort of "removal" do you think can be authorized for "in exchange for war funds" with people who come from empire which routinely hunts elves in other countries to fuel their slavery-based system? What sort of "removal" do you think Loghain thought he was authorizing given whom he made the deal with? Especially when he was being paid for it?

Again, the man doesn't even flinch when you throw in his face he was selling elves. You'd think a man clueless about what's been going on would be at least demand a clarification or honestly claim not being responsible, especially when such charge is used in attempt to remove him from power. Yet he just launches into rant how the war cannot be won by only ethical means and how sacrifices must be made. And how it's up to the Maker to judge him about that.

Modifié par tmp7704, 02 décembre 2009 - 05:40 .

[RunCDFirst]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

@Ashander23

Loghein signed papers allowing Tevinter Mages to operate in the Alienage in exchange for war funds. He never signed anything giving them the right to trade slaves and he sure as hell never signed anything giving the Orlesians permission to be there, and he never would.

I think you might want to read the fine print.
I don't think the Tevinters are all like 'But we have papers saying we can take slaves!' if they... you know... didn't have papers saying they could take slaves.
Loghain doesn't even dispute the point. He just says it was necessary.

[ValentineHeart82]

RunCDFirst wrote...

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

@Ashander23

Loghein signed papers allowing Tevinter Mages to operate in the Alienage in exchange for war funds. He never signed anything giving them the right to trade slaves and he sure as hell never signed anything giving the Orlesians permission to be there, and he never would.

I think you might want to read the fine print.
I don't think the Tevinters are all like 'But we have papers saying we can take slaves!' if they... you know... didn't have papers saying they could take slaves.
Loghain doesn't even dispute the point. He just says it was necessary.

There's no way to know what Loghein actually knows. He doesn't dispute you because he dismisses your charge out of hand, at least that's how it seemed to me. When he says the Alienage is lost he suggests that it's a lawless place beyond any hope of redemption. Whether you perceive this to mean there's no way to know what crimes take place there, or whether you perceive this as a justification depends largely on perspective. The papers only show that he gave the mages permission to be there, not that he knew what they were doing.

I don't think the mages ever say that Loghein knows what they are doing, and the papers only show that Loghein recieved money to look the other way. The Mages also view loghein as a potential problem, this makes more sense if he doesn't know that they're slavers.

Loghein is offered War funds to look the other way as mages operate in the Alienage, which is already full of crime, full of disease, and still in bad shape from the purge. I'm pretty sure that's where he stops caring.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:00 .

[AnnDeFerm]

Despite all your arguments he still walked out on his king so he is a traitor. He is living in the past, fighting the last war.

[Murdario]

on my second playthrough i realized i had already played this same exact story through 6 times before, with nwn2...

[ValentineHeart82]

AnnDeFerm wrote...

Despite all your arguments he still walked out on his king so he is a traitor. He is living in the past, fighting the last war.

He didn't just "walk out", the darkspawn massed in greater numbers than he ever anticipated, there were breeds no one had ever seen before (ogres being the show stoppers) and Cailan was surrounded in the vally cut off from reinforcements. His numbers were far too few and by the time they manuvered to attack they would have been surrounded. You failed to deliver the signal on time, Cailan failed to listen to reason when he was told to stay off the front lines, and he failed to listen when he was told to wait for Eamon's troops to arrive. Cailan was determined to be a big hero just like in the stories. He ignored reason, he ignored Duncan's advice, he ignored Loghein's advice, and he got everyone killed.

So what would you have done? Let child killing rapist for Orleas who were a week away march into your land, after you saw them hunt your people for sport and spent your entire life trying to drive them out? Would you have charged into a lost battle in a blaze of glory and sacrificed all of your men like a fool thus sacrificing any hope of victory in the future?

How would you have saved the king? By swooping in on a Griffon before the Ogres that were already closing in got him?

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:45 .

[ValentineHeart82]

Murdario wrote...

on my second playthrough i realized i had already played this same exact story through 6 times before, with nwn2...

I really don't think so. I played NWN 2, the story is not the same. This is an obvious troll.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:44 .

[Murdario]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Murdario wrote...

on my second playthrough i realized i had already played this same exact story through 6 times before, with nwn2...

I really don't think so. I played NWN 2, the story is not the same. This is an obvious troll.

i really do thinks so. i played both games several times, its the same damn story. this is an obvious fanboy in denial.

[ValentineHeart82]

Murdario wrote...

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Murdario wrote...

on my second playthrough i realized i had already played this same exact story through 6 times before, with nwn2...

I really don't think so. I played NWN 2, the story is not the same. This is an obvious troll.

i really do thinks so. i played both games several times, its the same damn story. this is an obvious fanboy in denial.

So you keep asserting. However having played both games I think you're nothing but a troll. Humoring you though, make an argument for how they're the same. You know, beyond the monomyth effect.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:58 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

@ValentineHeart82



You're like a bad record. Every time you mention Orlesians you add "child-raping, murdering" etc, in a feeble attmpt to stregthen your arguments.



FACT: Army has scouts. They had a good idea of the darkspawn numbers

FACT: Loghain made the plans, they had gathered a large force in a very defensible position

FACT: Cailan was not cut off. He was in a position determined by Loghains battleplan

FACT: Loghain didn't want the reinforcements, since they were grey wardens and orlesians

FACT: Loghain smiles after ordering a retreat. Does this sound like something someone who's does that reluctantly would do?

[ValentineHeart82]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
FACT: Army has scouts. They had a good idea of the darkspawn numbers

Who had no idea how many were about to come out of the ground

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
FACT: Loghain made the plans, they had gathered a large force in a very defensible position

Plans that called for more men and had no accounting for the sheer numbers that came out of the ground, or the Ogres.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
FACT: Cailan was not cut off. He was in a position determined by Loghains battleplan

FALSE: Loghein implored him not to be on the front line before the battle and Darkspawn had already overwhelmed their forces by the point of retreat.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
FACT: Loghain didn't want the reinforcements, since they were grey wardens and orlesians

FALSE: Loghein wanted reinforcements from Redcliff. The only reinforcements he didn't want were Orlesians, who may well have been the threat he realized.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
FACT: Loghain smiles after ordering a retreat. Does this sound like something someone who's does that reluctantly would do?

I just watched the video several times on youtube looking for that smile, he does not "smile". He Grimaces until he turns to follow his men, where his face returns to a normal default expression.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:33 .

[Ashander23]

Nope, you're right. Mispoke on the Orlesians. Tevinters.



Still, however, the point stands. If he knew about the slavery, he went against his reason for hating Orlesians, and promoted slavery. He has been too steadfast in his beliefs for this to be ignored.



Loghain would not be the only one with access to the seal though... and in fact he would be away during the first closing of the alienage.



Once again, Anora proves nothing about being good, in fact even tells you she (paraphrase) 'Didn't lose one king to gain another'. Fact is she can only truly be in power if there is no king, but Cailan allowed her political run of the country thereby giving her the control she wanted. As far as she was concerned, he could control the army with her father.



Fact: Anora uses all the same tactics Morrigan does when you talk to her in the castle. Stories and tales and double talk about her father and his 'crimes'. I could never tell if she was telling the truth or not, the only thing I knew for sure was that she couldn't be trusted.



With Alistair around, though, and Cailan's fondness for battle (which would get him killed, as everyone knew) there was a threat to her sustained power. This was confirmed later.



Loghain also tells you that the Queen could be dangerous if threatened, or something to that effect. This is, of course, after he joins you as a Grey Warden.



Lotion I'd like to know how you know that they knew the numbers of the darkspawn. They didn't even know it was a true blight... or at least didn't acknowledge it.



Loghain wanted reinforcements from Redcliffe? I know he mentioned the troops had not arrived... but that also leads me to wonder if the Teryn did indeed send Jowan to poison the Arl? Why poison the Arl if you want his troops? Perhaps this was an Arl Howe inspired event? Or did I miss something between Jowan and the Crows? Just something else that might use a forged seal.



BTW... I never said she put them in a radioactive wasteland. I said she put them in land no one else wanted, or could use. It would be very easy to make this look like an act of good faith, or generousity, when the reality is much different. Much like a plague to cover for slavers and close the curtain on a slaughter.



Q: Hey, where did all the elves go?

A: Oh. The plague. Don't go in there, you might get it.



And, of course, it wasn't long before there was tension again.

[ValentineHeart82]

Exactly! All we know is that, according to the documents, he gave them permission to be there in exchange for war funds. His out of hand dismissal of the charge suggests to me that he didn't know what was going on in the alienage and he didn't care, it was hopelessly lost to him.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:47 .

[RunCDFirst]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Exactly! All we know is that, according to the documents, he gave them permission to be there in exchange for war funds. His out of hand dismissal of the charge suggests to me that he didn't know what was going on in the alienage and he didn't care, it was hopelessly lost to him.

I think you want to watch that section again.

When faced with slavery, he goes on about the horrors of war and that sacrifices have to be made. He talks about a lose of innocence. He doesn't dismiss the charge out of hand but tries, in vain, to explain his actions.

He knew very well that he was selling elves to the slavers but felt it had to be done for the greater good of Fereldan. Here, a youtube link if you want to watch: 

[ValentineHeart82]

RunCDFirst wrote...

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

Exactly! All we know is that, according to the documents, he gave them permission to be there in exchange for war funds. His out of hand dismissal of the charge suggests to me that he didn't know what was going on in the alienage and he didn't care, it was hopelessly lost to him.

I think you want to watch that section again.

When faced with slavery, he goes on about the horrors of war and that sacrifices have to be made. He talks about a lose of innocence. He doesn't dismiss the charge out of hand but tries, in vain, to explain his actions.

He knew very well that he was selling elves to the slavers but felt it had to be done for the greater good of Fereldan. Here, a youtube link if you want to watch: 

There's no way to know what he knew. He's never even been to the Alienage, the papers only suggest that he knew mages were there. Letting Tevintar mages operate in his city is a much more serious crime to the Nobles than the slavery of a few elves. Most of the nobles even own elves as "servants". The way he responds seems to dismiss your actual charge, and shift the focus to the necessity of aquiring war funds and doing things that are less than honorable in war, as if he's arguing that looking the other way isn't a serious crime. I don't think he knew that they were slavers and I don't think he cares.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 03 décembre 2009 - 12:01 .

[PatT2]

Hmmm.... it seems the OP just wants to believe what he believes. It's like watching a certain newscast because it confirms what you already believe instead of challenging your beliefs. If the OP wants to see "facts" from a perspective thatmakes him feel good about his decisions, than just thank the maker that he is only in charge of a game, not a country.

Sacrifices must be made, but so long as it's the ones in dust town making them, and not the nobility, it doesn't matter. Sounds like Loghain meets Harrowmont. Those people at the bottom don't matter.

Sounds a little like a certain class of "nobles" sending other people's kids to war. Well, since they can't get jobs anyway, why not send them out as cannon fodder? My kids won't go. ......

Loghain is thoroughly despicable. Anora is daddy's girl. But she has the right set of skills to rule. Funny, that. She's not a raving paranoid lunatic. However, that doesn't make her likeable. Seems like being likeable and being a good leader (shrewd, cunning, conniving, etc. are mutually exclusive. Popular leaders are very rare, especially if they're very good leaders. There have been a few in history, but they are the exception. Being a good leader does mean valuing all your people, though, but you can still be cunning and care about the people. Remember how the game paints Anora as popular with the people? Now, i didn't play the ending that had the hunger riots so I don't know about that... yet...



So anyway. If Valentine wants to believe that Loghain's just a misunderstood guy, and he really truly didn't know he was selling people (ha! in spite of evidence to the contrary) like somehow whatever happens in the Alienage is so different than the horrors of the Tevinters or Orlesians.. If you want to believe that and it helps you sleep at night, Flemeth said it best. You don't have to believe. We get it. We can see what you believe through your posts. You didn't ask so you could be dissuaded. It's not more complicated than it looks. I'm just glad you're not in charge, stealing the kids of my friends and selling them.

[ValentineHeart82]

PatT2 wrote...

Hmmm.... it seems the OP just wants to believe what he believes. It's like watching a certain newscast because it confirms what you already believe instead of challenging your beliefs. If the OP wants to see "facts" from a perspective thatmakes him feel good about his decisions, than just thank the maker that he is only in charge of a game, not a country.

It's not like that. I'm pointing out that he's not black and white like many people believe, Anora's not some innocent little flower that needs white knights running to her aid, and Howe is... Well... Howe.

You have no clear way of knowing how much of what you believe is perception and how much is actually true. BioWare did a good job at making the story like that, they made a story that you can experience in different ways and if you actually question your gut feelings you can find a lot of depth to the characters that you may have missed because of your knee jerk reactions.

I'm not saying Loghein is a good guy, I'm saying he's not some evil monster conspiring with the Darkspawn. He's all too human, like any general he knows that sacrifices must be made in war. He'll sacrifice anything, including his life, for his people. He does some horrible things but he believes that he is right, and he's no worse than many in history who are to this day treated as great men and great generals.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 03 décembre 2009 - 12:17 .

[tmp7704]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

He'll sacrifice anything, including his people, for his people.

Fixed.

[PatT2]

Okay, I'll buy that. Loghain is not conspiring with the darkspawn. Any more than the Grey Wardens are. Most people are complicated. Most good people are nuanced in their goodness, and most "bad" people have redeeming qualities, whether you can find them or not is another question.



I like what Wynn says about Uldred. "I'm sure has some redeeming qualities. He must have a perfectly good reason for not displaying them." Is this what you're talking about?

I mean, my pc is basically good. But she's doing the questline for the crows. Because, well, those people must need killing. The reason she decided to go ahead was that she had already killed the first mark, and for excellent reason. I just didn't realize I could get a reward for it.

Aren't most people more interesting when push comes to shove? Maybe the story/game is trying to get us to take a second look, a really good look, at those around us, and question our preconceived ideas about them. I know that if I look at just about anyone, I can find points about them that contradict the overall ideal. Howe, in this game, is the one exception.



I end the game wondering...

What is Morrigan really all about?

What or who is Flemeth?

Wynn gets called on the carpet by the guy/spirit that protects the urn for her platitudes.

Leliana gets called out also for her delusions.

Sten starts out as a murderer, but he's just a single-minded warrior.

Shale is, well, completely different than she appears.

So, why not Loghain. Anora has some fond memories of him. Even though she fears he's irredeemable. In the other hand, who knows what you can believe from Anora (as we are warned by Arl Eamon. But even the queen of Orlais compliments Anora on her skills as a queen. She's politically shrewd, and that's worked in her favor.



If you're saying, these characters are more deep aind interesting than they appear to be, and our own actions in game can affect that, well, then yes, you are right. After all, ripples in a pond. Who knows where that ripple becomes a wave, and washes over some plant and waters some other? The more power we have, I suppose, it can be argued, the more unintended consequences our actions can have. So yes, there are shades and nuances in the story and the character, based on what you've done up to the point in the story, apparently. So, one has to go try doing things differently, and in a different order, to see what comes of it.