165 réponses à ce sujet

[RunCDFirst]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...
There's no way to know what he knew. He's never even been to the Alienage, the papers only suggest that he knew mages were there. Letting Tevintar mages operate in his city is a much more serious crime to the Nobles than the slavery of a few elves. Most of the nobles even own elves as "servants". The way he responds seems to dismiss your actual charge, and shift the focus to the necessity of aquiring war funds and doing things that are less than honorable in war, as if he's arguing that looking the other way isn't a serious crime. I don't think he knew that they were slavers and I don't think he cares.

That's not an attempt at being dismissive, that's an attempt to excuse one's actions. It's made quite clear that he knew he was selling elves to slavers.

And there's a difference between servants and slaves.

I do think you're right on one thing though - he didn't care about them.

[Ulysseslotro]

Well it is interesting. To you a General who leaves his King on the field of battle without engaging is a Hero. To me he is a coward who deserves the punishment the Nobles in Braveheart got. You just see things very differently that is all. I've heard Loghain enough times to know he was the brains behind all the bad things. He is the Augustus, I'll not blame it on Mark Antony or Cleopatra.

[endaround]

 Wow you are really buying the Loghain did it because of the Orleasans?  That makes no sense.  He did it because he believed he deserved to be king and not some playboy playing dressup.  How does sacrificing half the army at Ostagar and throwing the entire country into civil war protect the country from invasion?  While at the same time darkspawn are running rampant.  Even if he assumes it isn't a blight the darkspawn will wreck havoc on the country and basically cause death and food shortages.  Basically his actions invite an invasion.

Loghain held power through the king but as the king became chummy with the Grey Wardens he saw his influence fading and feared that the Grey Wardens would soon usurp his position.  And so he came up with a plan to remove the king, kill off the rival Grey Wardens, and get himself appointed regent and later king.  You know why he was surprised at the signal fire?  Because he didn't expect you and Alister to light it because he knew darkspawn were in the tower.  If you try to enter the tower before you go to the wilds the guard there says Loghain's men were inside in the basement looking at deep tunnels.  No Loghain didn't make a deal with the darkspwan he just opened up a path for them to overrun the tower.

[ValentineHeart82]

RunCDFirst wrote...

ValentineHeart82 wrote...
There's no way to know what he knew. He's never even been to the Alienage, the papers only suggest that he knew mages were there. Letting Tevintar mages operate in his city is a much more serious crime to the Nobles than the slavery of a few elves. Most of the nobles even own elves as "servants". The way he responds seems to dismiss your actual charge, and shift the focus to the necessity of aquiring war funds and doing things that are less than honorable in war, as if he's arguing that looking the other way isn't a serious crime. I don't think he knew that they were slavers and I don't think he cares.

That's not an attempt at being dismissive, that's an attempt to excuse one's actions. It's made quite clear that he knew he was selling elves to slavers.

And there's a difference between servants and slaves.

I do think you're right on one thing though - he didn't care about them.

Well either way there's really good evidence that he knew the mages were there. Whether he knew what they were doing is debatable, but either way he either knew and didn't care, or he didn't know and didn't care.

[Archonsg]

After reading all the above post, and arguments whether or not Loghain had reason to "strategically" quite the filed, I am amazed that no one pointed out the very obvious link between Rendon Howe and Loghain. If you played as human noble both Duncan and King Calian mentions bringing retribution against Howe *after* the battle. Surely Howe would have known that his betrayal cannot be overlooked unless he already had an agreement with Loghain to murder the king in which case, both would benefit from the murder of the Cousland family. Loghain would finally get "real" power and Howe... well, he kills off an old family enemy and get thier land and titles amongst other things.

No, I see Loghain's pull out as pre-planned and King Calian's death was in the works even before Duncan and the wardens arrived in Ostagar.

[ValentineHeart82]

endaround wrote...

 Wow you are really buying the Loghain did it because of the Orleasans? That makes no sense.  

He spent his entire life trying to drive them out, he saw them rape women, slaughter children, and humt Ferelden nobles for sport. I'd say it makes plenty of sense.

endaround wrote...
He did it because he believed he deserved to be king and not some playboy playing dressup.  How does sacrificing half the army at Ostagar and throwing the entire country into civil war protect the country from invasion?

He implored Cailan not to fight on the front line. All indications were that the Darkspawn only had a minor force, many battles had been won against them, and no one anticipated that such a massive army would come out of the ground, much less one with Ogres which had never been seen before. By the time you gave your late signal, the battle was already as good as lost. There were Darkspawn everywhere, ogres closing in on the king, both sides of the Ostagar Vally cut off, and little to no chance of retreat and the king was as good as dead. I'd have done the exact same thing, I don't care who's in charge there. Sending my men to their deaths would accomplish nothing and dying in a blaze of glory would only doom everyone in the end.

endaround wrote...
While at the same time darkspawn are running rampant.  Even if he assumes it isn't a blight the darkspawn will wreck havoc on the country and basically cause death and food shortages.  Basically his actions invite an invasion.

He did state that he intended to rally his army at Denerem and return to rout the Darkspawn. In the meantime he had to deal with civil war, the Banns weren't falling in line, what did he care if a few Chasid villages were over run? Until Lothering was over run he had no idea how bad the problem really was.

endaround wrote...
Loghain held power through the king but as the king became chummy with the Grey Wardens he saw his influence fading and feared that the Grey Wardens would soon usurp his position.  And so he came up with a plan to remove the king, kill off the rival Grey Wardens, and get himself appointed regent and later king.  You know why he was surprised at the signal fire?  Because he didn't expect you and Alister to light it because he knew darkspawn were in the tower.

An unverified conspiracy theory. We may learn the truth in the Return to Ostagar DLC, until then all you have is a hunch.

endaround wrote...
If you try to enter the tower before you go to the wilds the guard there says Loghain's men were inside in the basement looking at deep tunnels. 

That is suspicious, potentially damning depending on what they were doing, maybe in the DLC we'll find out what really happened. Keep in mind that all that tells you is that there were tunnels and that men were looking at them, it could be that those men were securing the tunnels, it could be they were making a back door for darkspawn, it could be that they got eaten and never reported back. Anyway keep in mind that there's no marker over his head to tell you what facial expression you're looking at, you may see suprise because you expect to see suprise just like someone else sees a smile where I see a grimicing scowl.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 03 décembre 2009 - 05:21 .

[ValentineHeart82]

Archonsg wrote...

After reading all the above post, and arguments whether or not Loghain had reason to "strategically" quite the filed, I am amazed that no one pointed out the very obvious link between Rendon Howe and Loghain. If you played as human noble both Duncan and King Calian mentions bringing retribution against Howe *after* the battle. Surely Howe would have known that his betrayal cannot be overlooked unless he already had an agreement with Loghain to murder the king in which case, both would benefit from the murder of the Cousland family. Loghain would finally get "real" power and Howe... well, he kills off an old family enemy and get thier land and titles amongst other things.
No, I see Loghain's pull out as pre-planned and King Calian's death was in the works even before Duncan and the wardens arrived in Ostagar.

Howe never intended for anyone to survive the Cousland massacre, but maybe he planned for that. There's no telling what Howe's told Loghein or what kind of deal they might have worked out, or what Loghein really thinks of Howe. Too bad you can't ask him, as a Human Noble I wanted answers myself.

Modifié par ValentineHeart82, 03 décembre 2009 - 05:24 .

[phordicus]

the NPCs have a lot of depth; the story, not so much.



much of the game (for me) can be summarized by this example dialog:



1. yes, i agree with you (Continue on to Inevitable Plot Point Z)

2. let me come back later to answer even though nothing i discover, if anything new at all shows up, will change any of my options

3. no, i disagree with you (Cue the betrayal sequence where you must overcome an extra obstacle but still end up at Plot Point Z -- see #1)

[PatT2]

(King) Kailen is another example of a more complex, if short lived, character. While he was called "good," the fact that he wanted the glory of fighting in the front lines was rash, impetuous, immature and in fact, deadly. He clearly did not have the "right stuff" to rule. In fact, "good king" Kailen might very well have been a good king, because his wife, Anora, was an able administrator.

If Anora was so "in cahoots" with her father, why did she end up being locked up in Howe's estate. And it was under a magic lock created by a mage that was loyal to Howe. She called Howe a SNAKE. He most surely is that.

As a noble this playthrough, I can assuredly agree.

Bioware has stated in another thread that what ends up in *your* (wth is thename of the thing) glossary depends on your origin, in part. So unless you've played all the origins, it is possible you're missing something.

The characterization is well written. You must agree with that. As for the story, well, if you are looking for LOTR, consider that LoTR was the author's LIFE'S work. It took him 15 years to write. And many, many more to develop the lore. Surely you would not want to pay as much for a game as it would cost for writers to dedicate that kind of attention. I, for one, am grateful it gets this good in game world.

[Vormaerin]

endaround wrote...

 Wow you are really buying the Loghain did it because of the Orleasans?  That makes no sense. 

Well, of course it makes no sense to someone who isn't paranoid.  Loghain hates the Orlesians every bit as much as the Dalish Keeper hates the werewolves.  You have zero evidence for your assertion that he wants to be king for the sake of being king.   There's lots of evidence in game (and in the book) that's he's obsessive and paranoid about the Orlesians.

The goal was annihilating the Wardens.  If he just wanted to be King, he could have had the King assassinated.   Maybe everything he says in the cutscenes and the post landsmeet party discussions is a clever lie.   But I tend to think not.

[knarayan]

I don't think it was about being king - Loghain's pretty obsessed with Ferelden - and believes that he is the only one who knows what war means and what it takes to win it - he seems to have had a lot of respect for Cailan's father. I haven't read either of the prequel books, but wasn't there supposed to be an affair with Cailan's mother and his blaming Cailan for her death?

However, I think he didn't want to be king - but he wanted to call the shots as far as the defence of Ferelden was concerned.

Given his reaction when Howe introduces Zevran, I also doubt if he sent the blood mage to poison Eamon. I think it was another of Howe's schemes, carried out using Loghain's name - theres a bit in the trial where he accuses Eamon of becoming fat and lazy or something - which could mean he didn't know the reason behind Eamon's absence.

It's also possible that Howe played up the Orlesian threat and the arrival of the Orlesian Wardens to make sure that the Ferelden Grey Wardens were exterminated. Howe knew he had Loghain's ear - and also knew that Loghain was his only chance at real power - in fact he says as much.

So, my take is this. Howe was controlling Loghain - by controlling the information the latter received, and making his play for power and property.

Loghain was being played, from the beginning

[Malificis]

Interesting OP.

Not sure about some of the Loghain stuff. More like Loghain wanted to be King because he saw Cailan is a fool who would ruin the country, so he let him die regardless of whether his own forces would cause a victory, assuming he could let Cailain die, take the throne, then beat the darkspawn back.

underestimated results of his own treachery - banns turn against him.

He looks genuinely surprised when the tower is lit - if you talk to the guard in front of the tower before the battle, he says they found a tunnel in the floor of the tower, so only the "Teryn's men" are in there. An invitation to the darkspawn to take the tower? The darkspawn have generals too! They saw a tactical choice to take the beacon tower? Loghain lets them! Assumes no one will retake it. Loads more darkspawn come to the tower when the beacon is lit.



I dont think Morrigan is Flemeth by the end. Flemeth dies and Morrigan is not there - but this is arguable at a stretch.

[Tayah]

Jowan clearly states he was hired by Loghain HIMSELF, he recognizes him from his portrait and as a hero and the templar you find in Howe's dungeon also says it was Loghain and his men that took Jowan from him. Ser Donal in the Lothering chantry tells you Eamon 'fell ill' BEFORE Ostegar so even without the noble origin Loghain was planning his betrayel. With the noble origin it's even more certain because Howe would not expect to get away with murder if the king lived and he's too self serving to risk an attack that would lead to his imminent death. (A couple of posts refer to his taking the highever Teyrnir back from the Couslands but his family never held Highever, it was a village the Couslands took in order to drive out Orlesians before the Howe's realised Ferelden would win and switched sides being the opportuinists they are... and which family now controls that village directly isn't stated) Even if you decide Loghain wasn't responsible for the attack or had not made any formal agreement with Howe beforehand he becomes an accessory and willing acomplice after the fact by ensuring Howe is made Teryn of Highever after Cailan is dead.



Perhaps it's just me but I thought Loghain was deliberately goading Cailan even more to ensure Cailan would chase glory and fight in the front lines so he could ensure his death. It seemed to me that he was pushing Cailan's buttons deliberately by opposing him and telling him not to do things as though Cailan was a child (even if he did act like a big kid at times) and was satisfied when Cailan chose to be in the front lines. If he truly wanted to save Cailan he could have suggested sweeping in leading the flanking and final destructive assault was the more glorious path to take.



I don't dispute his paranoia regarding Orleis I just think he decided to kill Cailan as soon as he learned of Cailan's approach to the Orleisians for help fighting the darkspawn so that no matter what Orleisians wouldn't be able to return to Ferelden. The irony is really that in the end he single-handedly did as much damage to Ferelden as he was scared of Orleis doing by tearing the country apart and handing a lot of it over to the darkspawn and without the intervention of the PC and the armies you gather he would probably have lost all of Ferelden anyway.

[Mnemnosyne]

ValentineHeart82 wrote...

He implored Cailan not to fight on the front line. All indications were that the Darkspawn only had a minor force, many battles had been won against them, and no one anticipated that such a massive army would come out of the ground, much less one with Ogres which had never been seen before. By the time you gave your late signal, the battle was already as good as lost. There were Darkspawn everywhere, ogres closing in on the king, both sides of the Ostagar Vally cut off, and little to no chance of retreat and the king was as good as dead. I'd have done the exact same thing, I don't care who's in charge there. Sending my men to their deaths would accomplish nothing and dying in a blaze of glory would only doom everyone in the end.

You continually say this, but you never explain how Loghain could possibly have known the current situation without checking on it.  Psychic powers, perhaps?  He was behind cover.  The tower signal was necessary because he could not observe the battlefield directly, since the forest and half of Ostagar was between his position and the main battle.  That he quit the field immediately upon the signal being lit simply shows that he recognized his plan was ruined, he could not hold off on attacking and claim it wasn't his fault, because everyone had seen the signal.  So he retreated, then made up a bull**** story about seeing that the Grey Wardens were leading the king into a trap, and pulled out his men to save them.  Throughout the game you run into plenty of people, and even some of the soldiers that were actually there, that are dubious about this story.

Take a look at the battle plan itself: http://mnemnosyne.co...03090039077.jpg

Notice Loghain says 'charge from cover'.  Look at the map.  The Tower of Ishal is on the left side, Loghain's forces are positioned where his right hand is, to charge from cover and flank the darkspawn.  The darkspawn come forward from the south, and are funneled into the narrow pass, where Loghain's men will flank and catch them in between the two forces.  Notice that there is no way for someone positioned where Loghain's men are to observe the current status of battle at the narrow pass where Cailan was, so Loghain could not possibly know the status of the fight without going out and actually checking it.

Tayah wrote...

Perhaps it's just me but I thought Loghain was deliberately goading
Cailan even more to ensure Cailan would chase glory and fight in the
front lines so he could ensure his death. It seemed to me that he was
pushing Cailan's buttons deliberately by opposing him and telling him
not to do things as though Cailan was a child (even if he did act like
a big kid at times) and was satisfied when Cailan chose to be in the
front lines. If he truly wanted to save Cailan he could have suggested
sweeping in leading the flanking and final destructive assault was the
more glorious path to take.

I don't agree with this.  I'm reasonably certain that Loghain would have been content to see the Grey Wardens defeated, because then Cailan would listen to him again instead of being starstruck by their legends.  Loghain never shows himself to manipulate people particularly well, in my observation - he relies on his status as a hero and a brillant general and strategist to get people to listen to him.  He doesn't make excuses or twist people around, he states his thoughts plainly and expects people to accept his logic and reason.  You can see this in the Landsmeet where he doesn't make excuses for himself, he states things bluntly as he sees them.

[fanman72]

I thought the same exact thing actually. At first i thought it was obvious Loghein was simply a pawn for the archdemon which turned out not to be the case at all. In reality, there are strong reasons for taking the actions he did and significant evidence that Howe and maybe Anora plotting behind his back for a power grab.



The game deals as much with the civil war as it does the darkspawn, even if the latter is the "main" plot.



Loghein, Morrigan (although sometimes cruel to the point of unbelievability), Anora were are extremely well written characters. Most villains have the stereotypical "I am greater than thou" attitude. Loghein was different in the sense he also knew how to put everyone else on guilt trips and spin things in a very political fashion. It takes good writing to express that. He's still a ******, but by far not the most evil character in the game. Morrigan, Anora, Howe (especially), Branka were all far more evil

[fanman72]

I thought the same exact thing actually. At first i thought it was obvious Loghein was simply a pawn for the archdemon which turned out not to be the case at all. In reality, there are strong reasons for taking the actions he did and significant evidence that Howe and maybe Anora plotting behind his back for a power grab.



The game deals as much with the civil war as it does the darkspawn, even if the latter



Loghein, Morrigan (although sometimes cruel to the point of unbelievability), Anora