435 réponses à ce sujet

[Das Tentakel]

I was never particularly fond of the art in DA:O. Originally (before being exposed to the semi-disaster that is DA2), I considered it mostly bland, generic, uninspired, archaic-looking ('3-5 year behind the graphics curve') and neither cohesive nor consistent. It wasn't bad, a lot of effort had gone into it, but it failed to impress me on most levels.
Still, there were things I did like - the art direction for the Dwarven realm was competent, and art deco influences made it subtly different from other generic Dwarven realms (Ironforge, Warhammer, LotR movies). The dungeons were occasionally atmospheric, the Desire demons wickedly sexy.

As a whole, variety and the frequently succesful evocation of mood saved it for me, in the sense that, together with the sheer size of the game and good characterization and dialog, it made DA:O a classic example of 'the whole is greater than the parts'. 

DA2...well, entire Internet wars and forums threads the length of epic poems have been dedicated to this.
My personal pet peeve is mostly architecture and environments, but I understand the anger and irritation about creature and character redesign (what a waste of scarce resources...). In a nutshell, where DA:O was highly varied and occasionally truly evocative, DA2 suffered from excessive visual simplification and stylized exaggeration (AKA 'cartoonishness') in terms of visuals and animation that was seriously at odds with the grim, pseudo-realistic tone that was established for the setting in DA:O. 
You are in serious trouble when many gamers feel that the art styles of, say, Skyrim, The Witcher (I and II) and Assassin's Creed are in many ways a better fit for your universe than the one you cooked up in DA2.

Maybe we have to accept that, basically, the DA team just isn't very good at art direction as a whole; that they lack the necessary synergy needed between concept artists, modellers, overall direction, etc. that would be required to pull it all off. Despite the fact that, individually, some of them are obviously very good at what they do and are undoubtedly hard-working men and women of experience and talent.

Hmmm....I guess I am becoming a bit of a pessimist here:crying:

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 25 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[AkiKishi]

Wulfram wrote...

Arppis wrote...

It was a good idea to make them look less like humans with pointy ears.

Meh, that's what elves are.

I don't see that making them skinny humans with wierd noses and eyes is a big advantage.

It's not enough to just try to copy the ears. But the miss mash of anime and more traditional art style is a something that plagues DA2.

[dream_operator23]

I'm not really commenting on whether the elves should look like humans with pointy ears or more alien. What I am responding to on here is that there seems to be a quite a few people on this thread that actually think that the elves in DA:O were beautiful like Tolkien elves. To me nothing could be further from the truth. I don't mind the elves looking more human like they were in DA:O, but by the gods make them more attractive. According to lore humans find the elves attractive and in DA:O I kept thinking how in the hell do humans find these people attractive. Now I don't think that the elves on the whole were better looking in DA2, but I think that they had the potential to be. Fenris especially captured that beautiful elven look to me in DA2, much more than Zevran did in DA:O.

Modifié par dream_operator23, 25 mars 2012 - 10:56 .

[Das Tentakel]

Wulfram wrote...

Arppis wrote...
It was a good idea to make them look less like humans with pointy ears.

Meh, that's what elves are.
I don't see that making them skinny humans with wierd noses and eyes is a big advantage.

One of the things I noticed while taking a good look at the DA2 Elves is that they are still basically just humans - and to be precise, they are Europeans. Only with their bodies oddly tweaked and thinned out, making them look 'wrong' in terms of body proportions (necks too thin, heads too large compared to the body, ears oddly placed).
This can work in a graphic novel or a videogame with a cartoon style (WoW), but in a videogame that still has mostly 'realistic' humans they stand out like a sore thumb. 

On a related note regarding graphic novels, I was sort of comparing the DA2 Elvish redesign with the Elves in the 'Chroniques de la Lune noire' by Froideval & Pontet ('Black Moon Chronicles'). These are a lovely pastiche of all things D&D plus French fantasy RPG and graphic novel / cartoon influences. Elves in that series have something of the thin, slender shape and pronounced ears the DA2 Elves seem to aim for.

But...a funny thing. Here's a page from Froideval's later (mini)series 'Succubus' (2000):



I think I am seeing a not-so-old DA2 acquaintance there 

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 25 mars 2012 - 11:13 .

[LPPrince]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Arppis wrote...

It was a good idea to make them look less like humans with pointy ears.

Meh, that's what elves are.

I don't see that making them skinny humans with wierd noses and eyes is a big advantage.

It's not enough to just try to copy the ears. But the miss mash of anime and more traditional art style is a something that plagues DA2.

Honestly, what I want out of elves in DA are simple-

Make them look relatively human again. Sure, make them a little shorter, but keep them human looking without weird ass proportions.

Then change the way they walk, the way they talk, the way they carry themselves, the way they do things, what they do, their gaunt, etc etc.

Make subtle differences so that when I see them from a distance I can say, "That's an elf" without having to tell their an elf because they look grotesque.

I want my elves looking-





http://desmond.image....png&res=medium

http://desmond.image....png&res=medium





http://desmond.image....jpg&res=medium

http://desmond.image....jpg&res=medium

Jesus that was a lot of pics to drive the point home. hah

Modifié par LPPrince, 25 mars 2012 - 11:49 .

[dream_operator23]

Now Prince, I agree with you. All of those elves you just posted are how I want the elves to look. Of course not a single one of those elves could be made with vanilla DA:O. Mores the pity. So vanilla game-wise I think DA2 elves barely eek out beyond DA:O elves just because they have the potential to have an other-worldy beauty to them (not that it was used that often, but again the potential was there). With vanilla DA:O you couldn't get your PC elves to look anywhere that nice and most of the NPCs were much worse than what you could make in the CC.

Modifié par dream_operator23, 25 mars 2012 - 12:10 .

[LPPrince]

dream_operator23 wrote...

Now Prince, I agree with you. All of those elves you just posted are how I want the elves to look. Of course not a single one of those elves could be made with vanilla DA:O. Mores the pity. So vanilla game-wise I think DA2 elves barely eek out beyond DA:O elves just because they have the potential to have an other-worldy beauty to them (not that it was used that often, but again the potential was there). With vanilla DA:O you couldn't get your PC elves to look anywhere that nice and most of the NPCs were much worse than what you could make in the CC.

Hah, I had a feeling someone would mention that most of them were mods, so I threw in Lanaya from the Brecilian Forest quest in DAO.

She's not modded at all.

[Dubya75]

harkness72 wrote...

Since I can't be bothered to trawl through 113 pages of text on the Mark Darrah on the Conclusion of DAII thread, I was wondering if some kind, knowledgeable soul would tell me if a dev said anything about a change in art style for the Next Thing? I'm personally rooting for one, since I felt that the cartoonish, overly smooth and stylised style of DAII took away from the darkness the series encapsulates. 

Although I really like the DA2 art style, I would agree that it greatly changed the feel of the game from what is meant to be dark and sinister, to something a bit too cartoony.

[yusuf060297]

@LPPrince
Thats exactly how i would imagine an elf to look like, gentle looking, long straight hair,etc...

Bioware should rather focus on things like hair colour, eye colour, skin colour and body type for elves. Setting those things a little bit would be enough to let them stick out more then the other races, making them distinct and yet at the same time like the lore says attractive looking for the people of thedas.

For example making the elves mostly have straight blonde / brown / red hair with blue / green eyes, pale and gentle looking. i wouldnt really like setting the facial features that much. They did in da2 and nearly all ended up looking a bit like rats. i liked the art style a lot from dao, it was really good in that manner.
what a pitty that they had to change it.

Modifié par yusuf060297, 25 mars 2012 - 02:00 .

[Mr Fixit]

I've said it before, but I think it was a mistake to include elves in Dragon Age lore in the first place. They have way too much baggage attached to them to truly fit in a pseudo-realistic grimm'n'gritty world. I don't like them and I think they are way too derivative and been-there-done-that for the kind of world and mood BioWare is supposedly going for.

Qunari, on the other hand, are a fantastic example of a fully realised race that fits the themes of the franchise beautifully.

[Adanu]

Nah. I like the new elf style. Do you *really* want a human only world in a FANTASY setting? That was be completely and utterly boring for my part.

[LPPrince]

Adanu wrote...

Nah. I like the new elf style. Do you *really* want a human only world in a FANTASY setting? That was be completely and utterly boring for my part.

Of course we don't. That's why we're suggesting how to improve elves, because DA2's were unsavory(to us at least, of course your opinion differs but is as equally valid).

As I said, there are more changes that can be made to a race other than appearance.

Elves can be fundamentally different from humans, and still look similar to them.

[LPPrince]

Dubya75 wrote...

harkness72 wrote...

Since I can't be bothered to trawl through 113 pages of text on the Mark Darrah on the Conclusion of DAII thread, I was wondering if some kind, knowledgeable soul would tell me if a dev said anything about a change in art style for the Next Thing? I'm personally rooting for one, since I felt that the cartoonish, overly smooth and stylised style of DAII took away from the darkness the series encapsulates. 

Although I really like the DA2 art style, I would agree that it greatly changed the feel of the game from what is meant to be dark and sinister, to something a bit too cartoony.

Yeah, the art style just doesn't sit right with me.

Hence it being my biggest gripe with the game. Everything else is still a downer, but the art style to me is the biggest offender.

Its what I've got to look at the whole game.

[Mr Fixit]

LPPrince wrote...

As I said, there are more changes that can be made to a race other than appearance.

Elves can be fundamentally different from humans, and still look similar to them.

I don't quite understand why fantasy feels so shackled to Tolkienesque tropes. Is our imagination truly so limited that we desparately need elves and dwarves everywhere? Don't get me wrong, I like them as much as the next guy, but just as not every SF needs Klingons and Wookies, I am of the opinion that not every fantasy needs elves and dwarves.

I just feel there is nothing worth exploring while treading the same ground over and over.

[LPPrince]

I have no problem with elves being used in fantasy over and over.

Plus, its not like the DA series is going to be rid of them any time soon, so arguing that elves may be "overused" in fantasy seems a rather pointless subject to bring up.

Now if Bioware said they were going to rid DA of a race and we'd influence which it was, THEN I'd get it.

But I love elves, so I'm glad they are here to stay.

Lets work on making them better, rather than getting rid of them.

[Mr Fixit]

LPPrince wrote...

Lets work on making them better, rather than getting rid of them.

Fair enough. However, I have difficulty thinking of a way to make elves more interesting in DA lore. Sure, BioWare could always think of something, but truth be told, they will always remind me of 'kitchen sink' approach to lore design.

As I see it, there are two rough options:

1. Keep them recognisably Tolkienesque (a.k.a. humans with pointy ears) and I fear they have nothing worthwhile to add to Dragon Age setting that couldn't be more interestingly explored in another, more "flavor-friendly" way.

2. Change them significantly and profoundly which in turn presents two new problems:
    a) it would retroactively completely change an already established race
     why even call them elves.

I may be in minority here, but that's just my opinion.

Modifié par Mr Fixit, 25 mars 2012 - 02:43 .

[LPPrince]

I don't think elves can't bring anything to the table just because they look like humans.

[Unknown_Warrior]

Maybe it's just me but I liked DA2's graphics infinitely more than DAO's. Even the elves were an improvement, as pointy-eared humans is just SO overdone.
Though DA2 did suffer from all grey-syndrome.

IMO, Keep the artstyle but dare to use a bit more colour. Make foliage look and feel green and vibrant.
I think that's why I prefer ME art style over DA's, at least it dared to mix and match vibrant colours (illium and Thessia come to mind) while still maintaining a gritty tone.
Of course, the balance isn't easy to find. Kingdoms of Amalur is an excellent example where too much colour made the dark fantasy setting too unbelievable.

[Mr Fixit]

LPPrince wrote...

I don't think elves can't bring anything to the table just because they look like humans.

It's not just that they look human, but for all (psychological) intents and purposes they *are* human, in DA at least. What trait truly sets them apart? I simply feel they are stuck in that weird no man's land: they are neither a full-blown fantasy construct with a life of their own nor are they 100% human. They're just these bland pointy-eared humans who roam around the land.

[LPPrince]

Unknown_Warrior wrote...

Maybe it's just me but I liked DA2's graphics infinitely more than DAO's. Even the elves were an improvement, as pointy-eared humans is just SO overdone.
Though DA2 did suffer from all grey-syndrome.

IMO, Keep the artstyle but dare to use a bit more colour. Make foliage look and feel green and vibrant.
I think that's why I prefer ME art style over DA's, at least it dared to mix and match vibrant colours (illium and Thessia come to mind) while still maintaining a gritty tone.
Of course, the balance isn't easy to find. Kingdoms of Amalur is an excellent example where too much colour made the dark fantasy setting too unbelievable.

Wait, graphics or art style, cause your first sentence confused me.

[Unknown_Warrior]

LPPrince wrote...


Wait, graphics or art style, cause your first sentence confused me.

Both. DAO was wooden characters in an all-brown environment, DA2 were lively characters in all-grey environment. I prefer the latter, though it could still use improvement.

But admittedly, I was thinking more of art-style, so yeah it was a typo.

[King Cousland]

Agreed with more colour where appropriate. Agreed also that the elves need work. They need to look more separate from humans than in DA:O, but DAII took it too far, they looked like they'd jumped straight out of Jak and Daxter. Subtle differences should be implemented: paler skin, slender frames, high cheekbones, long, straight hair, less visibility of ageing. With DAIII in mind, they should go back to looking at Frank Frazetta's art.

[The Elder King]

Mr Fixit wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I don't think elves can't bring anything to the table just because they look like humans.

It's not just that they look human, but for all (psychological) intents and purposes they *are* human, in DA at least. What trait truly sets them apart? I simply feel they are stuck in that weird no man's land: they are neither a full-blown fantasy construct with a life of their own nor are they 100% human. They're just these bland pointy-eared humans who roam around the land.

The human's and the dalish's (which rapresent the real elven culture) cultures and customs are fairly different. Elven magic seems more related to nature (and while weaker than blood magic, stronger than normal magic). The problem is that a lot of elves are integrated in the human's culture, so half of the time we encounter elves in DAO and DA2 we are looking at human-educated elves.

Modifié par hhh89, 25 mars 2012 - 03:11 .

[bEVEsthda]

Mr Fixit wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I don't think elves can't bring anything to the table just because they look like humans.

It's not just that they look human, but for all (psychological) intents and purposes they *are* human, in DA at least. What trait truly sets them apart? I simply feel they are stuck in that weird no man's land: they are neither a full-blown fantasy construct with a life of their own nor are they 100% human. They're just these bland pointy-eared humans who roam around the land.

What trait sets them apart? How about ethnically different, racism?

I see it as "elves" being a collection of labels, game pieces, place holders, for some things that IMO have a place in these stories and games. Are elder scrolls' elves really elves, for instance? Not really. But they have the alternative label of "elves", for player and paradigm convenience.
Whether they are elves or not doesn't matter. So they can just as well be "elves".

It might be well worth to remind about that Bioware casted the elves into different roles than traditional. City elves drastically so. So are DA "elves" really elves?

Whatever they are, why can't they look like and be labeled as elves? That doesn't really matter, does it? I mean it's the role they have in the game that matters,

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 25 mars 2012 - 03:14 .

[The Elder King]

bEVEsthda wrote...

What trait sets them apart? How about ethnically different, racism?

I see it as "elves" being a collection of labels, game pieces, place holders, for some things that IMO have a place in these stories and games. Are elder scrolls' elves really elves, for instance? Not really. But they have the alternative label of "elves", for player and paradigm convenience.
Whether they are elves or not doesn't matter. So they can just as well be "elves".

It might be well worth to remind about that Bioware casted the elves into different roles than traditional. City elves drastically so. So are DA "elves" really elves?

Whatever they are, why can't they look like and be labeled as elves? That doesn't really matter, does it? I mean it's the role they have in the game that matters,

I agree, especially in the fact that they're not (or was in the past) the superior race in the magic field. Magic elves in the past were powerful, and Keepers are powerful mages (stronger than regular mages) but they lost against the Tevinter Empirium (humans) and every clan has only two mages.
The only thing that the DA elves share with the majority of fantasy elves is their ability as archers.