435 réponses à ce sujet

[yusuf060297]

Brockololly wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

They need a whole new engine, for that they need zots, and for more zots they could probably do without their games being review bombed on Metacritic and the people who make them being called out on the internet as being representative of everything wrong with the industry.

Granted I don't know if that's how it works, but it seems reasonable.  As it stands, their "loyal" fans are demanding they do more with less because that's what they "owe" people.

If EA is looking at sales figures and canning expansions, what do you think they're gonna say if BioWare wants time and money to work on a new engine?

EA will just shove Frostbite 2 onto them, like they're doing with so many of their internal games. And certainly as this console lifecycle winds down, I think they're viewing Frostbite 2 as a bridge to the next gen consoles.

I really think the shift to a console focus hurt DA2 in this regard too. The DA engine was developed first and foremost to work on a PC. It could do things like the isometric type view which the consoles couldn't handle. So as it stands, they're trying to make this PC engine work best on a console and yes, its not really working. All the while the stuff it can do well and makes it unique is cut because the consoles can't handle it. Thats the reason you have the N64 elves- because the consoles can't handle anything more.


I just really doubt BioWare is ever going to come up with their own engine for any of their games ever again. They'll just use something like Unreal or Frostbite 2 or something. Which so long as they're trying to do party based RPGs, I don't know that thats a good thing either.

not to be a downer or anything, but i rather got the feeling that they will stick to the da2 engine.... and its art style 

[upsettingshorts]

yusuf060297 wrote...

not to be a downer or anything, but i rather got the feeling that they will stick to the da2 engine.... and its art style 

The DA2 engine is the DAO engine.  It's the Eclipse engine.  They upgraded it slightly in the short window they had to do so, but it's not like it's a whole new thing.

Art style will probably remain as the DAO art style was deliberately generic and they no longer want that, and good riddance.  Though preference on that front is a matter of taste.

Will they re-use environments?  Will they come up with a way to hide the engine's obvious issues?  Will they use different, perhaps more toned-down combat animations?  We'll see.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 mars 2012 - 08:38 .

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
If it was a hardware issue and not a ******-poor engine, then games like Heavy Rain - a console exclusive - would not manage to put together scenes like this.  Furthermore, as many people including myself pointed out as being a major issue with DA2, the camera was actually more restrictive than it was in DAO. 

I'm not really following where you're going with the Heavy Rain thing. Sure, it looks great. I'm not saying that console games can't look good for their hardware. The issue is that the engine for Heavy Rain is being utilized for a very specific type of game. Could they make a party based RPG with iso view with multiple followers and all of the calculations going on in the background on that engine? I don't know, I kind of doubt it. Different engines do different things better, depending on what they're built for.

The issue as I see it with DA2 is that its an engine that can do unique things, like the iso view, and yet BioWare with DA2 are trying to make it function under the increased scrutiny of a more cinematic game like ME and the result isn't that great. They're not playing to the strengths and unique things they could plausibly do with the engine. They're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
In other words, your agenda is showing.  BioWare's had a significant presence on, and a focus towards delivering a good experience with their console-platform editions since Knights of the Old Republic in 2003.

So? Yeah, I play games on PC, so at the end of the day I don't care much about the console versions. And...? Its a pretty well established fact that the consoles have severely limited memory for instance. So since most engines require things like animations preloaded, thats going to cut down on the number of more ambient animations for other NPCs. Maybe BioWare could try to craft things a certain way to get more out of its engine but at the end of the day  you're going to be limited by the hardware.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
This was compounded by DAO's incredibly delayed release.  The Eclipse engine is simply extremely dated and inefficient, considering that the game was announced in 2004 the engine itself is probably around that age, too, and it shows.

Sure, but by the same token, the Source engine is dated. Yet Valve has been continually updating it so that you have games like Dear Esther or Portal 2 that look great. I think its more that BioWare doesn'y have the requisite technical prowess to upgrade their existing engine like Valve has and really, BioWare titles haven't been that technically strong since their Infinity engine days.

[Das Tentakel]

Brockololly wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
In other words, your agenda is showing.  BioWare's had a significant presence on, and a focus towards delivering a good experience with their console-platform editions since Knights of the Old Republic in 2003.

So? Yeah, I play games on PC, so at the end of the day I don't care much about the console versions. And...? Its a pretty well established fact that the consoles have severely limited memory for instance. So since most engines require things like animations preloaded, thats going to cut down on the number of more ambient animations for other NPCs. Maybe BioWare could try to craft things a certain way to get more out of its engine but at the end of the day  you're going to be limited by the hardware.

Upsettingshorts wrote...
This was compounded by DAO's incredibly delayed release.  The Eclipse engine is simply extremely dated and inefficient, considering that the game was announced in 2004 the engine itself is probably around that age, too, and it shows.

Sure, but by the same token, the Source engine is dated. Yet Valve has been continually updating it so that you have games like Dear Esther or Portal 2 that look great. I think its more that BioWare doesn'y have the requisite technical prowess to upgrade their existing engine like Valve has and really, BioWare titles haven't been that technically strong since their Infinity engine days.

There's also a little game called The Witcher I. Which used the Infinity Engine's progenitor the Aurora Engine (Neverwinter Nights). I am currently replaying it, and the liveliness of its locations made me really, really sad. About DA2 and DA:O.

[Merci357]

Brockololly wrote...

I just really doubt BioWare is ever going to come up with their own engine for any of their games ever again. They'll just use something like Unreal or Frostbite 2 or something. Which so long as they're trying to do party based RPGs, I don't know that thats a good thing either.

To be honest I never understood why a big publisher like EA doesn't use a decent inhouse engine for most of their games. And it looks like Frostbite 2 might take that role, at least some upcoming games will use it (C&C Generals 2), or are rumored to use it (Deadspace 3).
Which could be a good thing - BF3 (on PC with ultra settings) looks stunning, it's so far and above most other games these days. But to create tons of characters models, assets and envirements of this fidelity level might require a high budget. And likely they need to modify the engine to support their genre, I don't think DICE used many moduls suitable for a party based RPG when they developed this engine to suit their needs with BF3.

So my guess would be DA3 uses the old engine one last time, before they have to move on anyway, because the next gen consoles are there. And in my view it's better this way, concentrate on content, and don't spend so much manpower on a new engine, at least not before you have to. I'm not looking forward to eye candy when thinking about BioWare games anyway.

That said, I was always under the impression BioWare deliberately used the more stylistic approach to hide their dated engine. Like WoW, it's quite terrible, but then again you don't really notice it because it's hidden under a cartoonish and colorful look. I prefer a more realistic look myself, however. I hope DA3 will be a little bit more down to earth, slower combat animations, and less cartoonish textures - and the engine is capable of doing so, as seen in DA:O.

Modifié par Merci357, 25 mars 2012 - 09:32 .

[Tom12]

Brockololly wrote...

I just really doubt BioWare is ever going to come up with their own engine for any of their games ever again. They'll just use something like Unreal or Frostbite 2 or something. Which so long as they're trying to do party based RPGs, I don't know that thats a good thing either.

i dont see the bad point about that, if da3 would use frostbite 2 it would be really awesome imo. i think it would be a bad thing if they would spend their time in da3 with just making a new engine for it, besides why should they make their own engine when there are already really good ones around?

[Wulfram]

DA2 looks a lot better when the lighting is nice and subtle, rather than bland or overpowering.  Which it is sometimes, so clearly the engine can do it.

Tom12 wrote...

i dont see the bad point about that, if da3 would use frostbite 2 it would be really awesome imo. i think it would be a bad thing if they would spend their time in da3 with just making a new engine for it, besides why should they make their own engine when there are already really good ones around?

Different engines are good at different things.  The question is whether adapting one to their specific needs - like tactical combat, and loads and loads of cinematic dialogue - would take more effort than writing their own.  And whether the engine would force them to make unacceptable compromises for the game they want.

Modifié par Wulfram, 25 mars 2012 - 09:58 .

[craigdolphin]

It always surprises me that people think DA2 Merril is attractive. I'm a straight adult man and I think she looks quite unattractive and worse, way too young. Could not bring myself to romance her because it made me feel like a dirty old man/pedophile. DAO Merril was better looking IMO. *shrug* YMMV

I agree with those who think the change in art style was a design choice to mask the engine limitations and also to try to keep the doc's promise to 'hotrod' the graphics in DA2. Unfortunately, rather than hotrodding them, they made them far worse.

A new engine is required and a return to a semi-realistic aesthetic that will actually impress people. Bioware needs to one-up CDPR and Bethesda, not just catch up. As it stands, DAO was a definite step below their later competition. DA2 was a large step backwards from DAO. Bioware cannot solve this issue with small tweaks to the art style or engine at this stage. They need to get the graphics and art style to be competitive with what else is in the market, or the DA franchise will cease to be considered a AAA product. Seriously, compared to TW2 or Skyrim DA2 was, visually more like an indie production IMO.

[LPPrince]

Yeah, prior to DA2 I thought it would be my favorite game of the year.

HAAAAAAA

Skyrim, man. Skyrim.

That realism is what I loved.

That realism is what I want out of Bioware.

[LPPrince]

craigdolphin wrote...

It always surprises me that people think DA2 Merril is attractive. 

Personally I find Merrill to not be attractive in either game.

[HanErlik]

LPPrince wrote...

Yeah, prior to DA2 I thought it would be my favorite game of the year.

HAAAAAAA

Skyrim, man. Skyrim.

That realism is what I loved.

That realism is what I want out of Bioware.

Forget Skyrim. I want this realism, this darkness, this epicness:


At least they can make a trailer like that.

Modifié par HanErlik, 25 mars 2012 - 11:00 .

[LPPrince]

They did make trailers like that.

Irrelevant when the actual games don't look like that.

[HanErlik]

LPPrince wrote...

They did make trailers like that.

Irrelevant when the actual games don't look like that.

I know. I am pretty sure that I will hate DA3 but I love good trailers such as Sacred Ashes. I think Bioware should quit developing games and start making CGI films.

Modifié par HanErlik, 25 mars 2012 - 11:18 .

[Wulfram]

I think they got someone else to make the trailers

[LPPrince]

Wulfram wrote...

I think they got someone else to make the trailers

They did.

[Rorschachinstein]

Blur studios made Sacred Ashes.

I'm not sure who made DAII's cinematic, but the sounds weren't all that great.

[LPPrince]

Blur did a hell of a job, that's for sure.

Still, that doesn't really matter when it comes to the game's art style.

[drak4806.2]

I liked how DA2 wasn't soaked in brown like DAO was. The overabundance of brown in DAO made the game seem really unrealistic and made me hate its art style.

[LPPrince]

I felt DA2 was incredibly drab.

Why give us a beach level if its dead?

Or a mountain level, if its dead?

Or a city level, if its dead?

[Atakuma]

craigdolphin wrote...

A new engine is required and a return to a semi-realistic aesthetic that will actually impress people. Bioware needs to one-up CDPR and Bethesda, not just catch up. As it stands, DAO was a definite step below their later competition. DA2 was a large step backwards from DAO. Bioware cannot solve this issue with small tweaks to the art style or engine at this stage. They need to get the graphics and art style to be competitive with what else is in the market, or the DA franchise will cease to be considered a AAA product. Seriously, compared to TW2 or Skyrim DA2 was, visually more like an indie production IMO.

Mimmicking the style of skyrim or TW2 isn't going to get them anywhere. The engine already has things like dynamic shadows, DOF, and ambient occlusion, as well as DX11 capabilties. With some improvement it could do just as well as anything else.

[LPPrince]

I think the biggest issue is that they need more TIME.

DA2 could've been a hell of a lot better, especially visually speaking, if they had more than an 18 month window to create the game.

[craigdolphin]

Atakuma wrote...

Mimmicking the style of skyrim or TW2 isn't going to get them anywhere. The engine already has things like dynamic shadows, DOF, and ambient occlusion, as well as DX11 capabilties. With some improvement it could do just as well as anything else.

Mimicking would at least remove the art style as a clear point of inferiority. But what I was actually arguing for was not to mimmick/match the competition at all, but instead to surpass the others in the competition altogether. The cartoonish/minimalist art style of DA2 does not even match the standards set by games that are already in the market place, let alone what will be available in 2 or 3 years. DA3 needs an engine and art style that raises the bar.

[LPPrince]

I don't think we'll be seeing a Dragon Age game on a new engine until the next gen consoles hit.

[Atakuma]

craigdolphin wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Mimmicking the style of skyrim or TW2 isn't going to get them anywhere. The engine already has things like dynamic shadows, DOF, and ambient occlusion, as well as DX11 capabilties. With some improvement it could do just as well as anything else.

Mimicking would at least remove the art style as a clear point of inferiority. But what I was actually arguing for was not to mimmick/match the competition at all, but instead to surpass the others in the competition altogether. The cartoonish/minimalist art style of DA2 does not even match the standards set by games that are already in the market place, let alone what will be available in 2 or 3 years. DA3 needs an engine and art style that raises the bar.

No it doesn't, what it needs is to be a good game. The visuals should be improved, but it is not neccessary for DA3 to be on the bleeding edge.

[Atakuma]

LPPrince wrote...

I don't think we'll be seeing a Dragon Age game on a new engine until the next gen consoles hit.

They won't need a new engine for the next gen consoles since the leap will be pretty small.