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My view on BioWare, the demand for a new ending and the Retake movement.


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#1
Guest_Luc0s_*

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I edited my original post after a long conversation with AznableChar in private. Please read the last half of the OP to read more about it.

Anyway, this is where I stand now:


Please read this article: http://www.pcgamer.c...-writers-think/ 


The article kind of changed my mind on the whole attitude of BSN. Is is truly within our rights to DEMAND a better ending? Is it truly up to us to decide how Mass Effect should end?

I don't believe so. I think it's BioWare who has ot decide what is best for them and what they want. Do they want to change the ending? Or do they want to keep their "artistic integrity"? 

However, I will add, that when BioWare decides to release DLC that addresses the ending, I won't buy it. I won't pay a single penny for it. Only if BioWare releases FREE ending DLC, then I'll download and play it.

But when I have to choose between paying for ending DLC, or letting the endings stay the same, I'll choose the latter. I rather keep the current endings than PAYING for a better ending.


However, I do want to ask everyone on BSN, to please judge every game on it's own merits. If DragonAge 3 or Mass Effect 4 or whatever turns out to be great, I'm going to buy it. I'll judge those games on their own merits. If they are good, I'll buy them. If they suck, I won't buy them. I hope the rest of BSN will do the same and not simply refuse to buy BioWare products out of petty grudges over the ME3 endings.


I want to clarify, that I still absolutely HATE the ending of Mass Effect 3, but  I think BioWare should make up their own mind and then THEY should decide what to do with the endings, NOT US.

So if BioWare wishes to change the endings for us, then I fully support them.
If BioWare doesn't want to change the endings but instead they choose to expand the current endings, I fully support them.
If BioWare decides to do nothing, I'll be hugely dissapoined, but I'll still fully support their future games if they turn out to be good.


I do want to add that I still respect the Retake movement and in some way I still support it, but I think now is the time for us to calm down and wait what BioWare has in store for us.


Also, please read THIS:

After the sh*tstorm in this thread broke loose, AznableChar contacted me through a PM and told me he wanted ot talk with me about this in private and in a civil manner. After a long conversation, we came to this concluson:

1. Instead of continuing on in a flame war and engaging in conversation that was going nowhere we, Luc0s and AznableChar instead sat down and had a decent human to human conversation.

2. We, Luc0s and AznableChar  both listened to each other's points we both argued passionately , and we both let each other have full course to be heard unlike the fast paced nature of the thread.

3. Through respectful and fruitful discourse we realized that we both prefer BioWare to release a FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending and that satisfied what we had come to expect from BioWare's past writing.

4. That we have both come to realize that part of the underlying frustration we all were having was due to the quick and swift negativity that can occur because of the intense pressures on the community.
 
5. We, AznableChar and Luc0s, both reaffirm our ardent and unyielding support the wish for BioWare to release FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending, but we also need to realize that all the negativity going on on BSN we only provoke more negativity, resulting in people eventually just giving up and/or leaving the Retake movement, such as was the case with me, Luc0s and unquestionably several others.

6. Understanding all of these elements we have come to realize that the Retake movement is not necessarily a bad thing. The movement can and WILL yield positive results for both us, the fans and BioWare, the developers, as long as we stay positive, calm and civil.

7. We want to state that through civil conversation, Luc0s and AznableChar came to an understanding. We both realize that ultimately we all want the same thing. With this we  prove and reaffirm that it IS INDEED POSSIBLE for calm dialogue and mutual respect can change minds and hearts and ultimately gain a better understanding, both among each other and hopefully also between BioWare and us, the fans.

Modifié par Luc0s, 24 mars 2012 - 06:20 .


#2
Reptilian Rob

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Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

#3
Pottumuusi

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Hasn't this been covered before?
They have the right to make any sort of ending they want.
I have a right to think that their ending is terrible and say that it would be better if they did X.
They have the right to change or not change the endings if they want to. They just have to decide if they like their "artistic integrity" or whatever better than they like my money.

Modifié par Pottumuusi, 23 mars 2012 - 11:49 .


#4
Unit-Alpha

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'k, bye!

#5
Taboo

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Art is for the people. Paying for it makes it a commodity.

#6
Taleroth

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If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?

If any part of the game fails, we have the right to ask for something better. It is then their right to say no. And our right to evaluate whether we want to buy future products.

#7
Andur4

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Pottumuusi wrote...

Hasn't this been covered before?
They have the right to make any sort of ending they want.
I have a right to think that their ending is terrible and say that it would be better if they did X.
They have the right to change or not change the endings if they want to. They just have to decide if they like their "artistic integrity" or whatever better than they like my money.


This. If they didn't this one would be quite sad, but would do the best so simply deal with it.

#8
Guest_Luc0s_*

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.


WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

Are movies art? If you answer is "yes" than you should also understand why the non-interactive parts of video-games are art.

#9
Cody211282

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Well considering they changed the ending once before I don't see why they wouldn't do it again.

Also it's not art if you mass produce it for consumtion, then it's just a product.

Modifié par Cody211282, 23 mars 2012 - 11:50 .


#10
pjotroos

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Movie endings are being changed all the time. They screen it for test audience and if the reaction is negative, they try something else. There clearly was no impartial test audience for this one. We're the test audience. Our reaction is negative.

#11
wright1978

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You obviously didn't read the Susan O'connor piece then.

#12
Unit-Alpha

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We are customers.

We paid money for a product. In the art world, it's called commission. And guess who makes the choices there?

You guessed it, the buyer.

#13
Taboo

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Michael Bay films are not art. They are a commodity to make money.

You can shape a turd into a flower but at the end of the day it's still a turd.

#14
Welsh Inferno

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To be honest after all this I'd probably just be content if they fixed the damn plot holes.. Being lied to has opened my eyes for the future.

#15
Hexley UK

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Pottumuusi wrote...

Hasn't this been covered before?
They have the right to make any sort of ending they want.
I have a right to think that their ending is terrible and say that it would be better if they did X.
They have the right to change or not change the endings if they want to. They just have to decide if they like their "artistic integrity" or whatever better than they like my money.


100% this, nobodies "Forcing" anyone.....we say if we do/do not like it and then they have all the choice in the world to do what they want.

Just don't expect me to give them any more of my money.

#16
Aesieru

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ART IS CHANGED ALL THE TIME.

#17
Unit-Alpha

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Luc0s wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.


WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

Are movies art? If you answer is "yes" than you should also understand why the non-interactive parts of video-games are art.


... you've heard of market testing, test groups, anything?

If they test poorly, they don't release. Period. Regardless of "art."

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 23 mars 2012 - 11:52 .


#18
Taleroth

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Luc0s wrote...

WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

WRONG!

All parts of a game are art. The gameplay, the story, the cutscenes, the music, even the bugs are part of that art.

That doesn't mean art is immutable. That doesn't mean it's perfect. That doesn't mean we can't disagree with it and request something different. That doesn't mean we can't judge it and say "your art sucks."

Modifié par Taleroth, 23 mars 2012 - 11:52 .


#19
Karrie788

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Pottumuusi wrote...

Hasn't this been covered before?
They have the right to make any sort of ending they want.
I have a right to think that their ending is terrible and say that it would be better if they did X.
They have the right to change or not change the endings if they want to. They just have to decide if they like their "artistic integrity" or whatever better than they like my money.


+1

#20
crimsontotem

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Interactive choice itself is an art... and suddenly breaking all the promise is art as well?

#21
Guest_Luc0s_*

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Taleroth wrote...

If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?


Did you even read my entire opening post? You clearly didn't, did you?

Demanding a patch or change in gameplay =/= demanding a different story or a different end to that story.

Gameplay is not part of a video-games "artistic integrity". But narrative and cutscenes are very much part of a video-games "artistic integrity". I already explained this in my OP.


So yes, when the story in a video-game is bad, or when the end to that story is bad, you just have to suck it up. You are free to express your dissapointment. You are even free to ask BioWare for  change, but you are not within your right to DEMAND change.


I did not like the way Harry Potter ended. Do I now have the right to demand that J.K. Rowling changes the end? Wouldn't I look like a complete retard when I would do that?

Modifié par Luc0s, 23 mars 2012 - 11:54 .


#22
RogueBot

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Maybe you should read the whole article. They all make good points-- no need to latch onto one quote in particular.

Modifié par RogueBot, 23 mars 2012 - 11:53 .


#23
Vhalkyrie

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Computer games as art. Hmm...art that depreciates at lightspeed. Anyone want to buy my copy of "Deus Ex"? It has the same artistic ending.  It's a classic!  It's probably worth about $5.

Games are commodities. Don't change the ending, that's fine with me. I won't buy any future products in the series.

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 23 mars 2012 - 11:53 .


#24
Linkforlife

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At least we still have Marauder Shields as the final boss, that still matters lol.

#25
Hexley UK

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It's not silly to speak your mind if you don't like something...nobodies forced to listen.