1311 réponses à ce sujet

[Evil_medved]

Traitor.

[MissMaster_2]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

We are customers.

We paid money for a product. In the art world, it's called commission. And guess who makes the choices there?

You guessed it, the buyer.

[ZodiEmish]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

ZodiEmish wrote...

Aznable Char wrote...

 Luc0s , I believe if you were to look over at my post (gosh this thread moves so fast) , I can demonstrate how you are still right and why the Retake movement is still valid in the new parameters you have come to appreciate about movies and art .

Aznable. The OP seems to be  avoiding longer posts. more so if they poke holes in his art theory.

I've responded 10 times to him.

0 replies.

Well that is a classic tactic you use when you stand on a soap box to preach but don't want to be proven wrong. You pick and choose what you reply too. It's no different the a political canadate screening questions before a town hall meeting, or censoring an interview.

It's a tactic used when the topic isn't as stable as the person preaching wanted it to be.

It is sadly happening here a lot. Someone will attack you, and when you blow their arguement out of the water they retreat instead of debating back.

Modifié par ZodiEmish, 24 mars 2012 - 12:39 .

[Dridengx]

Luc0s wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Sashimi_taco wrote...

I don't remember OP ever holding the line in the first place.

That's what I said.

I've been holding the line since the beginning. Just look at my signature, which is still a leftover from the time I was holding the line. I'll change my signature when I find something new to put there.

isnt it a better idea to remove your sig rather than keep it until you find something else? I mean, I've seen them doubt your membership above which makes your contributions overlooked, why promote a group who didn't acknowledge you?

[SimonM72]

....Aaaand religon. Lock inbound.

[cutegigi]

i welcome bioware to do whatever they want, including showing me their middle finger and telling me to **** off.
i'm however, giving them the courtesy of telling them in advance that doing those thing above to me will make me not happy, and an unhappy me will not want to spend my money on their art.
in the end, they are free to choose and do whatever they want.

Modifié par cutegigi, 24 mars 2012 - 12:38 .

[yoshibb]

HenchxNarf wrote...

yoshibb wrote...

babachewie wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

We are customers.

We paid money for a product. In the art world, it's called commission. And guess who makes the choices there?

You guessed it, the buyer.

Not once its done and its been paid for. Trust me. I'm an illustrator 

And trust me, I'm an artist. If someone asks for a commission and I give them something else, they have every right to demand I do what they paid for. 

While that is true. it does not apply in the case of a video game, and one who's story was never yours, but the people who created it. Not for you, but for their story.

No, they advertised specific mechanics in the story, specific things which they did not deliver on. They promised multiple different endings, even so much as 16. They promised that it wouldn't be A, B, and C and they promised that they would not give a confusing LOST ending. The tone of the ending is completely inconsistent with the rest of the trilogy. The characters have been completely assassinated with Shepard giving up and Joker and crew running away.

It is not art, it is fundamental flaws in the way a story is built up and reaches resolution. It is the same thing as if someone sells you a game with a game breaking bug. The story is broken and it needs to be fixed.

[Joe1962]

Stormraught wrote...

Trishot wrote...

I'll be holding the line for one extra person.

Take my hand brother you will not fill that spot alone.

I will join hands with you, as well.

Still, holding the line.

[Zix13]

Zix13 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Gosh, I didn't know BSN was so dumb and illiterate. <_<

Luc0s wrote...

GUYS PLEASE STOP FIGHTING!

My thread will get locked because you guys cannot behave like mature adults. Take your petty insults and childish behavior somewhere else please! THANK YOU!

Trololol

Come on mannnnn, no explanation, no little brother haxing your computer?

[Unit-Alpha]

SimonM72 wrote...

....Aaaand religon. Lock inbound.

More religion, and politics!

And let's discuss homosexuality, too!

Lock is locked and inbound.

[RogueBot]

Tazzmission wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Troll thread guys...

tell you what tough guy you want a troll come meet me on another forum because ill show you trolling

dont talk the talk if you cant walk the walk

I got a chuckle. Is "meet me on another forum" the internet's version of "do you wanna take this outside?"

[DarxydeBluus]

I actually do agree with the sentiment that it is not our place to demand a new ending, it isn't. The final decision in the content and direction of their games is BioWare's and BioWare's alone. What is our place is to offer any feedback we have on their products (and if BW decides to make changes based on that feedback, it is their prerogative) and to ultimately decide whether we are satisfied with the product enough to purchase additional products from them in the future. Personally, as of now, I'm not, although my dissatisfaction isn't with ME3 alone.

My feelings on Retake are mixed. On the one hand, there are some people who have taken it way too far (calling for people's firings, filing complaints with the FTC, talking about suing BW/EA). On the other hand, I appreciate the passion, dedication, and creativity many have shown. I'm also with them in pissing off the gaming "journalists" out there, when people like Colin Moriarty are angry with you you are probably headed in the right direction.

[Aznable Char]

ZodiEmish wrote...

Aznable Char wrote...

 Luc0s , I believe if you were to look over at my post (gosh this thread moves so fast) , I can demonstrate how you are still right and why the Retake movement is still valid in the new parameters you have come to appreciate about movies and art .

Aznable. The OP seems to be  avoiding longer posts. more so if they poke holes in his art theory.

I was hoping he'd pay attention because I was sincerely not attacking him but agreeing with him and showing him how his understanding of movie art and its inviobility is still valid with what we are attempting to accomplish . CHOOSE SYNTHESIS , CLICK THE LINK .

[rejoicelife]

I don't even know what to say...

All we do is voice our concerns and dissapointment about certain aspects of their product.
Of course its up to BioWare to make any changes in this regard.

Nobody here is FORCING them to do anything.

Modifié par rejoicelife, 24 mars 2012 - 12:40 .

[xxskyshadowxx]

bluewolv1970 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?

Did you even read my entire opening post? You clearly didn't, did you?

Demanding a patch or change in gameplay =/= demanding a different story or a different end to that story.

Gameplay is not part of a video-games "artistic integrity". But narrative and cutscenes are very much part of a video-games "artistic integrity". I already explained this in my OP.


So yes, when the story in a video-game is bad, or when the end to that story is bad, you just have to suck it up. You are free to express your dissapointment. You are even free to ask BioWare for  change, but you are not within your right to DEMAND change.


I did not like the way Harry Potter ended. Do I now have the right to demand that J.K. Rowling changes the end? Wouldn't I look like a complete retard when I would do that?

1) harry potter is not interactive and cutscenes are a direct result of player choice - allegedly

2) harry potter did not make promises that our decisions would impact the ending

3) harry potter does not release downloadable content throughout the year which already changes the inital product

4) Harry Potter is not a video game, and thus does not involve a mechanism of  "winning" inherently implied

5)  Harry Potter grasps the definition of bittersweet

6)  Movies Have re-released different  versions on DVD because of fan influence - Blade Runner comes to mind actually...

7) Movies change endings all the time because of fan reaction - called test screenings...

^Truth. And A good chunk of Harry Potter was rewritten prior to publication based on publisher and reader earlt read response. If game developers followed the same creative process as these other mediums, then their "You can't ask me to change my vision" argument would hold weight. As it stands it doesn't.

[Hexley UK]

RogueBot wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Troll thread guys...

tell you what tough guy you want a troll come meet me on another forum because ill show you trolling

dont talk the talk if you cant walk the walk

I got a chuckle. Is "meet me on another forum" the internet's version of "do you wanna take this outside?"

Lol yea.....coz the other forums don't have bouncers to save your butt.....rofl...ludicrous.

[Bullseye_Sally]

Luc0s wrote...

 Because this article has opened my eyes: http://www.pcgamer.c...-writers-think/ 


I've read that article 3 times and I've read really carefully what each developer had to say. Now I have to say that I agree with them, especially this part:

"But things like “cutscenes” and “endings” are completely authored by the developers, and the developers altering the authored content of a game after the fact has nothing to do with the systemic player-developer collaboration described above. "

I want to clarify, that I still absolutely HATE the ending of Mass Effect 3, but only now do I realize how silly it is that we demand that BioWare changes it. That does not mean that I think BioWare shouldn't change it. I think BioWare should make up their own mind and then THEY should decide what to do with the endings, NOT US.

So if BioWare wishes to change the endings for us, then I fully support them.
If BioWare doesn't want to change the endings but instead they choose to expand the current endings, I fully support them.
If BioWare decides to do nothing, I'll be hugely dissapoined, but I'll still fully support them.
They are within their right to do whatever they want with the narrative in their games and we players have no say over that.


If we players demanded a change within the gameplay, then I'd fully support that, because that is part of the interactive  relationship between player and developer. The developer creates an interactive product, we as the players interact with it and the result of that interactive relationship is gameplay. 


But is it fair and/or realistic for players to demand a new ending, especially when the ending is a non-interactive part of the game, a cut-scene that is part of the narrative, the story? Are we players within our right to demand changes in that?

Let me ask you this: Are we in our right to demand a new ending for Lord of The Rings? Is it fair if we demand a new ending for Harry Potter?


And before you come with the argument that games aren't the same as movies, I advice you to read my entire post again, until you understand that demanding a different ending in a game is the same as demanding a different ending for a movie. Yes, games are different, but I already explained why an ending or any cutscene within a game is not part of the interactive experience, it's not part of the interactive relationship between the player and developer. A cutscene is an artistic expression and in my opinion, art should not be changed because the viewer demands it. Art should only be changed if the artist decides that it should be changed.

+1

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Luc0s wrote...

But is it fair and/or realistic for players to demand a new ending, especially when the ending is a non-interactive part of the game, a cut-scene that is part of the narrative, the story? Are we players within our right to demand changes in that?

Let me ask you this: Are we in our right to demand a new ending for Lord of The Rings? Is it fair if we demand a new ending for Harry Potter?

Uhh, yes, we are. There's nothing wrong with demanding a new ending for Harry Potter. It just means the writer doesn't have to listen to you. It's still a product being bought by a consumer.

Capitalism is based around this idea of consumer power through the wallet. The goal of the company is to generate sales by putting out products the consumer wants. Bioware wants my continued support? They better rectify this crap after ME3 and DA2.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 24 mars 2012 - 12:41 .

[UnbornLeviathan]

Luc0s wrote...

 Because this article has opened my eyes: http://www.pcgamer.c...-writers-think/ 


I've read that article 3 times and I've read really carefully what each developer had to say. Now I have to say that I agree with them, especially this part:

"But things like “cutscenes” and “endings” are completely authored by the developers, and the developers altering the authored content of a game after the fact has nothing to do with the systemic player-developer collaboration described above. "

I want to clarify, that I still absolutely HATE the ending of Mass Effect 3, but only now do I realize how silly it is that we demand that BioWare changes it. That does not mean that I think BioWare shouldn't change it. I think BioWare should make up their own mind and then THEY should decide what to do with the endings, NOT US.

So if BioWare wishes to change the endings for us, then I fully support them.
If BioWare doesn't want to change the endings but instead they choose to expand the current endings, I fully support them.
If BioWare decides to do nothing, I'll be hugely dissapoined, but I'll still fully support them.
They are within their right to do whatever they want with the narrative in their games and we players have no say over that.


If we players demanded a change within the gameplay, then I'd fully support that, because that is part of the interactive  relationship between player and developer. The developer creates an interactive product, we as the players interact with it and the result of that interactive relationship is gameplay. 


But is it fair and/or realistic for players to demand a new ending, especially when the ending is a non-interactive part of the game, a cut-scene that is part of the narrative, the story? Are we players within our right to demand changes in that?

Let me ask you this: Are we in our right to demand a new ending for Lord of The Rings? Is it fair if we demand a new ending for Harry Potter?


And before you come with the argument that games aren't the same as movies, I advice you to read my entire post again, until you understand that demanding a different ending in a game is the same as demanding a different ending for a movie. Yes, games are different, but I already explained why an ending or any cutscene within a game is not part of the interactive experience, it's not part of the interactive relationship between the player and developer. A cutscene is an artistic expression and in my opinion, art should not be changed because the viewer demands it. Art should only be changed if the artist decides that it should be changed.

Listen to yourself! You're indoctrinated!

We're not trying to change 'art', we're trying to get what we were promised. What the developer and producers promised in interview after interview after interview, after press release after press release, after press release.

We are not trying to get more than what we were promised, we're not trying to force the industry to even work for free, we're trying to have our industry, that we support and support day after day, game after game, console after console, and have some manner of truth.

We want what we were promised.

Modifié par UnbornLeviathan, 24 mars 2012 - 12:41 .

[Skybree]

So another ones has seen "the light" Red/Green/Blue whatever ... im in awe of you ability to commit.

-throws beer to everone on the line - throws poo at the OP-

Kia Kaha!! - hold the line

[wantedman dan]

Luc0s wrote...

You are right, IF you are indeed "giving BioWare a courtesy". But I've seen plenty of people DEMANDING a better end, or else [insert something stupid here].


You have every right to voice your opinion. I will continue to voice mine too. I hate the ending as much as the next guy, but we have absolutely ZERO rights to make demands of BioWare. BioWare can simply ignore us and get away with it. I would honestly be dissapointed if BioWare would do that, but I would still respect them as artists.

Dali is my favorite painter. I love most of his art. But of course Dali also has some paintings that I do not like. I'm still supporting Dali however (though I doubt he cares, since he's pretty much death for over 20 years, but you get the point).

I just hope that regardless of what BioWare decides to do, they've learned something. Hopefully their DLC will give us some more closure and hopefully their next product will be better.

Wow. You absolutely refuse to listen to reason, don't you? It's not even just being ignorant. You refuse to see other's reasoning.

[Elios]

Taleroth wrote...



I did not like the way Harry Potter ended. Do I now have the right to demand that J.K. Rowling changes the end? Wouldn't I look like a complete retard when I would do that?

yes
See: Sherlock Holmes

Modifié par Elios, 24 mars 2012 - 12:42 .

[ZodiEmish]

Aznable Char wrote...

ZodiEmish wrote...

Aznable Char wrote...

 Luc0s , I believe if you were to look over at my post (gosh this thread moves so fast) , I can demonstrate how you are still right and why the Retake movement is still valid in the new parameters you have come to appreciate about movies and art .

Aznable. The OP seems to be  avoiding longer posts. more so if they poke holes in his art theory.

I was hoping he'd pay attention because I was sincerely not attacking him but agreeing with him and showing him how his understanding of movie art and its inviobility is still valid with what we are attempting to accomplish . CHOOSE SYNTHESIS , CLICK THE LINK .

Yeah.. but sadly from what he is saying it is clear he doesn't care. I read what you said and I agree with it. We are giving them a second chance with this movement. Most customers would just move on, but we are giving them the chance to make our money.

But that still pokes holes in the Opening Post, and most likely why he is avoiding your post. But I hope I am wrong. I can only make guesses off of what I see in this thread.

*EDIT*  I guess he finally caught wind of what was said and decided to take a leap to taking on one of the more thought out posts.

Modifié par ZodiEmish, 24 mars 2012 - 12:45 .

[spartan5127]

Who is forcing who do do what? Since it is a product we have the right to voice our displeasure over this product. If they value their "artistic integrity" over the satisfaction of their consumers, then so be it. That is fully within their right.

Also, Doyle changed the ending of sherlock holmes, one of the most memorable characters in this age. If that was art, and that could be changed, then why can't this be changed?