1311 réponses à ce sujet

[Unit-Alpha]

RogueBot wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

TheTrueObelus wrote...

Troll thread guys...

tell you what tough guy you want a troll come meet me on another forum because ill show you trolling

dont talk the talk if you cant walk the walk

I got a chuckle. Is "meet me on another forum" the internet's version of "do you wanna take this outside?"

Much fewer balls required.

Exactly 0.

[Unit-Alpha]

Also, OP, comparing ME to Dali? As someone with a lot of background in art history, I can tell you that's a terrible analogy.

[Pottumuusi]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

SimonM72 wrote...

....Aaaand religon. Lock inbound.

More religion, and politics!

And let's discuss homosexuality, too!

Lock is locked and inbound.

Allow me:

1 =! 0.999...
Gawd hates homosexuals.
Obama rocks/sucks(choose the opposite of your opinion for maximum offense)
PS is great, Xbox is ****.
PC > Mac

I'll just go over and declaw my cat now.

PS: Trinity kills Snape with rosebud.

Modifié par Pottumuusi, 24 mars 2012 - 12:46 .

[Marque De Leon]

Luc0s wrote...


You are right, IF you are indeed "giving BioWare a courtesy". But I've seen plenty of people DEMANDING a better end, or else [insert something stupid here].


You have every right to voice your opinion. I will continue to voice mine too. I hate the ending as much as the next guy, but we have absolutely ZERO rights to make demands of BioWare. BioWare can simply ignore us and get away with it. I would honestly be dissapointed if BioWare would do that, but I would still respect them as artists.

Dali is my favorite painter. I love most of his art. But of course Dali also has some paintings that I do not like. I'm still supporting Dali however (though I doubt he cares, since he's pretty much death for over 20 years, but you get the point).

I just hope that regardless of what BioWare decides to do, they've learned something. Hopefully their DLC will give us some more closure and hopefully their next product will be better.

ALL CONSUMERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEMAND SOMETHING. WHAT THEY DO NOT HAVE IS THE RIGHT TO FORCE SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING.

Demands, like complaints and crticisms can be ignored.

DEMAND=/=FORCE

[RDSFirebane]

spartan5127 wrote...

Who is forcing who do do what? Since it is a product we have the right to voice our displeasure over this product. If they value their "artistic integrity" over the satisfaction of their consumers, then so be it. That is fully within their right.

Also, Doyle changed the ending of sherlock holmes, one of the most memorable characters in this age. If that was art, and that could be changed, then why can't this be changed?

also Jason Todd was brought back to life in the batman comics AFTER the author said there was no way they would bring him back as it would be cheesey so ya.

[Iakus]

Elios wrote...
yes
See: Sherlock Holmes

Also, Charles Dickens

Rewrote ending to Great Expectations

[Foulpancake]

Mad-Hamlet wrote...

Let me ask you this:

No. You may not ask that question- I correct myself: You can ask that question of course but the answer you get, any answer including your own does nothing what-so-ever to bolster your position.

Three seconds of introspection would convince you of that.

Your ultimate argument is also grievously flawed as you are passing a Value Judgement and attempting to use your conclusions to dictate to me what I should or should not do using The Morality Gambit as your justification.
I have free will and I will do as I see fit; as long as what I do does nothing to interfere with others execution of their own free will there is no way in any kind of colored Hell (Some with even more than three colors) what I do can be labeled 'Wrong'.
Unless of course you have an 'Agenda', that you think you know what is Right for me and others and are willing to use whatever you can to manipulate to your satisfaction.

And that is Wrong.

You have become convinced through the article you read (And I read it, and it's utter Holier-Than-Thou garbage) that Holding the Line is wrong for you. Jolly good, rock on out and merry tides to you sailor-boy. May bonny lasses meet you in the harbor of your choosing.

In the meantime, myself and others like minded, will do what we do and none of it should bother you in the slightest (Particularly if the lasses I mentioned are feeling especially bonny- if you know what I mean)

I'm glad you found your place in reality, now go toward it without thinking you have any idea of what is right or wrong for me.

holy crap this^

And can the "art" stuff already, its not art

Basically you're
saying that the scene with shepard and anderson finally resting (a great
great scene) was not art, but the cutscene full of plot holes, nonsense
and foolishness WAS art because it was rendered in a different fashion?


Hey, why don't i just take a dump in the street in call it art,
by your logic thats correct because i didn't do it in the toilet, the
change of setting makes it art!

[ashdrake1]

Elios wrote...

Taleroth wrote...



I did not like the way Harry Potter ended. Do I now have the right to demand that J.K. Rowling changes the end? Wouldn't I look like a complete retard when I would do that?

yes
See: Sherlock Holmes

Sherlock holmes is a terrible example.  There is no proof he caved to fan demand.  There are multiple versions of the reason he chose to bring holmes back, 8 years after he killed him.  Thousands of fans stopped to subscribing to the magizine and demanded he bring him back .  Doyle did not give a damn.  

[Unit-Alpha]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

SimonM72 wrote...

....Aaaand religon. Lock inbound.

More religion, and politics!

And let's discuss homosexuality, too!

Lock is locked and inbound.

Allow me:

1 =! 0.999...
Gawd hates ****s.
Obama rocks/sucks(choose the opposite of your opinion for maximum offence)
PS is great, Xbox is ****.
PC > Mac

I'll just go over and declaw my cat now.

PS: Trinity kills Snape with rosebud.

I am deeply offended at literally everything you said there.

Including the disgusting claim about declawing your cat. That most of all.

[SpideyKnight]

Of the people polled only the one was strongly against it.  Some are for it and some seem to think that there's certainly nothing wrong with it, provided it's Bio's decision.  Both read further in and you find the gamers distinguish themselves from those who are merely in a game development job:

Chris AvelloneAvellone is Obsidian’s Creative Director, Chief Creative Officer and a co-owner at the studio. His game credits include Fallout 2, Icewind Dale II, Star Wars: KOTOR II, Neverwinter Nights 2, Alpha Protocol, Fallout: New Vegas, and F:NV’s DLC.“Games should take advantage of feedback and using it for DLC changes and sequel changes. I feel BioWare does this from game to game already, and it’s the reason that some companions have achieved the prominence and romance options in the games that they do because the players strongly responded to those characters—and I’ll be blunt, we as narrative designers have no idea how a character’s going to be received, and “breakout” characters we envision may end up not being that at all once the game is released into the wild.Most importantly, game development is an iterative process. Our goal is to entertain our players. No one knows more about what they consider “fun” than the player themselves. While you can’t please everyone, there are iterations that make sense to do in DLC content and sequels. As a case study, the DLC process from Fallout: New Vegas allowed us to collate all the weapon feedback from FNV and adjust it, and it also allowed us to take a long look at what gameplay elements and mods people were making for New Vegas and incorporate that into the narrative and quest lines. The best example is we noticed that people were making a LOT of homebase mods. So, we designed a good chunk of Old World Blues to specifically revolve on you making a new homebase in New Vegas with all the improvements people were pointing out. Even better, we were able to make it part of the story and the characters. Everybody wins, and people seemed to really enjoy it based on the fan (and press) response—but the catch is, we never would have thought to do that without analyzing the fan response and taking that into account.”

I think his is the most telling.  Understand this is one of the guys who penned Planescape: Torment.  He has amazing stories in him, we just haven't seen one for quite some time.  He's all for it.

Next is Greg Kasavin who again is for it and is the only one to note that he has not only PLAYED the game, but that this is not a precedent as everyone seems to think it is.  Fallout 3 another High-Profile game has already been here and done this.  And it wasn't because Fallout 3's ending didn't make sense.  Indeed it did make sense and it was a fitting end.  It was changed for the one and only reason that it was a sad end that brought finality to the character.  Not very smart when you have plans to sell DLC featuring that character for some time to come.  Who's going to buy it knowing that it doesn't matter?  That your character dies in the end?  How can people who have completed the game even play your DLC?  Their character is gone.  I'll note again and STRESS that Fallout 3's ending was changed solely as a business decision.  A business decision that they didn't come to without the fans, and one that garnered them a ton of money and a decision that did set a precedent then is NOT EVEN REMEMBERED by the vast majority of the press today.

In short the ending should change because it's a collaborative effort between the players and Bio.  All of the opinions of these non-gamers is meaningless.  I do not care what some writer on a game that is guaranteed to suck thinks.  Walking Dead the game's writer?  Are you serious?  I have nothing but pity for that guy.  His game doesn't have a hope of being good.  We'll see how good of a writer he is then.  And if he isn't a good writer then his opinion is even more meaningless.  Chris and Greg's posts are the only ones that really matter here and they are both for it, let's do this.

Modifié par SpideyKnight, 24 mars 2012 - 12:46 .

[acidic-ph0]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

We are customers.

We paid money for a product. In the art world, it's called commission. And guess who makes the choices there?

You guessed it, the buyer.

Absolutely. I used to draw quite a lot actually and I would take commissions routinely. If a customer wasn't satisfied, I would make the changes that they desired, no questions asked! Atistic license goes out the window when you are creating something for a paying audience.

To the OP:

Ask yourself how long do plays, movies, books etc last if the audience hates them? The simple answer is: They don't.

[ImmovableMover]

The increasing number of "Just accept it" threads are troubling. I will not submit, thank you.

(I think we're staring at and clicking the "Submit" button too often and it is subliminally indoctrinating us)

Modifié par ImmovableMover, 24 mars 2012 - 12:46 .

[wantedman dan]

iakus wrote...

Elios wrote...
yes
See: Sherlock Holmes

Also, Charles Dickens

Rewrote ending to Great Expectations

That name is such a misnomer.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

RDSFirebane wrote...

spartan5127 wrote...

Who is forcing who do do what? Since it is a product we have the right to voice our displeasure over this product. If they value their "artistic integrity" over the satisfaction of their consumers, then so be it. That is fully within their right.

Also, Doyle changed the ending of sherlock holmes, one of the most memorable characters in this age. If that was art, and that could be changed, then why can't this be changed?

also Jason Todd was brought back to life in the batman comics AFTER the author said there was no way they would bring him back as it would be cheesey so ya.

Oh, that was a fun one. Super Boy Prime punching reality, if I recall correctly.

[Unit-Alpha]

Luc0s wrote...

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

^Truth. And A good chunk of Harry Potter was rewritten prior to publication based on publisher and reader earlt read response. If game developers followed the same creative process as these other mediums, then their "You can't ask me to change my vision" argument would hold weight. As it stands it doesn't.

Actually, game-developers DO follow that same creative process, it's called "playtesting". Games are tested a dozen of times before they hit the market. At the early stages of development, these testers are often proffesional testers. But near the end of the development cycle, the game are tested by the fans and consumers, to see how they respond to your product. If they respond in a negative way, then there is still time to change it before it goes gold.

Whatever went wrong with the ending of Mass Effect 3? I don't know. I honestly can't believe that the testers who tested the game all liked the endings. Did BioWare just ignore their testers then? I don't know.

Play testers test for bugs, not story inconsistancies or anything of the sort.

[withneelandi]

I don't necessesarily think they should change the ending to mass effect 3. I don't think it was a good ending, but I am uncomfortable with the idea of a writer being presured by the fanbase to change something they have written after the fact.

There are a few reasons I don't think this argument holds up with mass effect 3...

The idea of "authorship" is far more complicated in a game like mass effect than in novel or film in the sense that it asks the player to take part and make choices on how the narrative will progress, the problem with mass effect 3's ending is not that it is bleak, or even that it is open ended, but that it seems to render all the choices the game asked the player to make meaningless. For me looking at the game as a narrative, it sets up a sort of 2 way narative with the player then chooses to ignore that convention at the narratives conclusion.

The idea of amending a text after the fact is not a new one, the idea of the directors cut is long established in "proper" art like movies. Especially where technology or time constraints have curtailed what the director could do. I strongly suspect the ending we got in mass effect 3 was less the creative teams vision and more a compromise of time or tecnology. It would be very hard for the team to state that in public but I that is the impression I get from playing the game. The last section felt rushed and disjointed from the rest of the story.

Finally, I think video games can be "art". I'm not sure mass effect 3 is. One of the things that makes art, art is that the primary motivation is "art for arts sake", i.e not to make profit. I find it hard to let a writer fall back on "artistic integrity" when a game ends with a prompt to buy future DLC.

All that said I am still torn on the idea of an amended ending. I think the end was terrible, but I think it would set a horrible example and would frankly lead to a campaign like this any time a game ends in a well thought out, but perhaps leftfield or unexpected way.

Basically, the end is terrible and I don't think we should defend it on the basis of artistic integrity but while chaning this ending seems reasonable it would set a terrible precident and lead to an internet campain to change the end of EVERY major video game franchise that dared take an unexpected approach. It would have a chilling effect on creativity in viedo game in the long term.

A developer will be wary of sparking such a campaign, and getting bad publicity or paying out the costs of developing new content and so won't take any risks when making games. That is far worse for gamers than this ending being rubbish.

[xxskyshadowxx]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

SimonM72 wrote...

....Aaaand religon. Lock inbound.

More religion, and politics!

And let's discuss homosexuality, too!

Lock is locked and inbound.

PS: Trinity kills Snape with rosebud.

WIN!

[MystaisPC]

FellishBeast wrote...
BioWare invoke the deus ex machina. That is NOT art.

Exactly.  And just to clarify:

A deus ex machina Latin: "god out of the machine"; plural: dei ex machina is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. 

Modifié par MystaisPC, 24 mars 2012 - 12:50 .

[Unit-Alpha]

Luc0s wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, OP, comparing ME to Dali? As someone with a lot of background in art history, I can tell you that's a terrible analogy.

The point, you missed it.

I've responded to you about 10 times and this is the only response you give?

I'm pretty sure I'm not the one missing the point.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

SpideyKnight wrote...


I think his is the most telling.  Understand this is one of the guys who penned Planescape: Torment.  He has amazing stories in him, we just haven't seen one for quite some time.  He's all for it.

I wouldn't say it's been a long time. Both Alpha Protocol and Fallout: New Vegas were very well written, in my opinion.

[Grasich]

I am enjoying this thread.

Do continue.

[wantedman dan]

Luc0s wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, OP, comparing ME to Dali? As someone with a lot of background in art history, I can tell you that's a terrible analogy.

The point, you missed it.

No, no. He got it quite fine.

[Unit-Alpha]

Grasich wrote...

I am enjoying this thread.

Do continue.

As am I.

I really enjoy these threads too much, don't I?