1311 réponses à ce sujet

[ZodiEmish]

Marque De Leon wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


You are right, IF you are indeed "giving BioWare a courtesy". But I've seen plenty of people DEMANDING a better end, or else [insert something stupid here].


You have every right to voice your opinion. I will continue to voice mine too. I hate the ending as much as the next guy, but we have absolutely ZERO rights to make demands of BioWare. BioWare can simply ignore us and get away with it. I would honestly be dissapointed if BioWare would do that, but I would still respect them as artists.

Dali is my favorite painter. I love most of his art. But of course Dali also has some paintings that I do not like. I'm still supporting Dali however (though I doubt he cares, since he's pretty much death for over 20 years, but you get the point).

I just hope that regardless of what BioWare decides to do, they've learned something. Hopefully their DLC will give us some more closure and hopefully their next product will be better.

ALL CONSUMERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEMAND SOMETHING. WHAT THEY DO NOT HAVE IS THE RIGHT TO FORCE SOMEONE TO DO SOMETHING.

Demands, like complaints and crticisms can be ignored.

DEMAND=/=FORCE

^ THIS RIGHT HERE


We maybe demanding them to change it.. but we are not forciing them to change it. Yes if they don't change it we will take our money some place else, but that's the free market, and our consumers right. But were not holding a gun to their heads and making them change it.

[MeganHunter]

DarxydeBluus wrote...

My feelings on Retake are mixed. On the one hand, there are some people who have taken it way too far (calling for people's firings, filing complaints with the FTC, talking about suing BW/EA).

Couldn't agree with you more. I would say firing is completely valid, but it's not because there's still an approval process that has to happen. At least X number of people signed off on that ending at the writing and animation stages. So whoever wrote it shouldn't be punished.

But I do think that's a relatively small group of people, most Retakers are quite respectful and love Bioware normally. When I read the comments to articles - many of which don't really depict the motivations of either side accurately - the comments are awash in people that don't have a clue. This morning I read a whole string talking about Retake was selfish for donating to Child's Play, and "whining" about ME, that we all could have been working for Green Peace or something constructive instead. Mind = blown, internet.

[xxskyshadowxx]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

^Truth. And A good chunk of Harry Potter was rewritten prior to publication based on publisher and reader earlt read response. If game developers followed the same creative process as these other mediums, then their "You can't ask me to change my vision" argument would hold weight. As it stands it doesn't.

Actually, game-developers DO follow that same creative process, it's called "playtesting". Games are tested a dozen of times before they hit the market. At the early stages of development, these testers are often proffesional testers. But near the end of the development cycle, the game are tested by the fans and consumers, to see how they respond to your product. If they respond in a negative way, then there is still time to change it before it goes gold.

Whatever went wrong with the ending of Mass Effect 3? I don't know. I honestly can't believe that the testers who tested the game all liked the endings. Did BioWare just ignore their testers then? I don't know.

Play testers test for bugs, not story inconsistancies or anything of the sort.

^This. That's technical stuff only. There are no peer and non-peer ctritiques of the work prior to release like with those other mediums certain folks keep comparing game development to.

[Grasich]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Grasich wrote...

I am enjoying this thread.

Do continue.

As am I.

I really enjoy these threads too much, don't I?

Possibly... nothing wrong with that though.

[wikkedjester]

As an artist, myself I find this a time to celebrate gaming. For gaming to TRULY be viewed as art its need to be more than butt hurt “artist.”

http://www.oxm.co.uk...shock-infinite/

http://www.escapistm...-Ending-Scandal

(Sorry, he just makes himself an easy target.)

Gaming is an interactive medium, and that is the only thing that gaming brings to the table as far as art goes. Would I call WoW art? No, would I call Heavy Rain art, Yes.

However Gaming is also a mass market consumer product, now as an artist that does commissioned work, if I created something that the client didn’t like, I would not get paid. Sure I could hold the line with the “artistic integrity” argument, but that argument doesn’t put food on my table now does it? I ’compromise’ because though I may be an artist, I did not create what my patron wanted, I can ether change it or not get paid, what do you think happens?

Artist through out history have “compromised”, this “artistic integrity” concept is a product of the hipster non-conformist generation, a generation of artist who have platitudes and pleasantries thrown at them instead of cold hard truths.

So I guess the argument should be is Mass Effect 3 art?

My answer would be No, you sacrifice all “artistic integrity” when you pull stuff from the art and sell it to your consumer after the fact. It would be like me cutting a square out of a pitcher, selling you that pitcher then telling you , you can buy the rest of the pitcher for an extra 10 bucks. You don’t do that, you can sell me a pitcher, you can offer me a frame, or maybe another pitcher, or a few cool ideas on how to display said pitcher, but you can’t sell me the pitcher as if it was jigsaw puzzle.

Mass Effect in-particular needs to lose this battle , not because I simply want a better ending, its past that point. If it wants to be art, if gaming wants to be art, it needs to understand that criticism, and harsh criticism at that is the order of the day, and taking that criticism and incorporation it into your work is the only way to evolve the form. And when your desired form of art requires the direct interaction of people in more of a way than just reading or viewing it, then you must except the ‘player base’ as artisans as well, because with out them no one would appreciate your ‘magnum opus.’

Gaming can do one thing that no other art from can do, take fan feed back and implement it almost eminently. And that is what will make gaming truly art.

[yoshibb]

Luc0s wrote...

You have every right to voice your opinion. I will continue to voice mine too. I hate the ending as much as the next guy, but we have absolutely ZERO rights to make demands of BioWare. BioWare can simply ignore us and get away with it. I would honestly be dissapointed if BioWare would do that, but I would still respect them as artists.

Dali is my favorite painter. I love most of his art. But of course Dali also has some paintings that I do not like. I'm still supporting Dali however (though I doubt he cares, since he's pretty much death for over 20 years, but you get the point).

I just hope that regardless of what BioWare decides to do, they've learned something. Hopefully their DLC will give us some more closure and hopefully their next product will be better.

Dali did not suddenly begin painting a impressionistic landscape in the corner of one of his paintings. Dali did not throw a bucket of black paint over a finished Persistence of Memory painting. This is akin to what Bioware has done to Mass Effect 3.

[Flextt]

I think the actual distinction to make, is that changing the ending does not necessarily mean change the existing ending. It could also mean, elaborate or expand the existing one and that is both justified and harmless to artistic integrity.
And actually, while I respect artistic integrity, Bioware would neither set a precedent nor tarnish its reputation if they chose to expand the current ending. They must have realized by now, that there is a strong demand for further content regarding the ending. As a profit-oriented company they will most likely choose to satisfy that demand and at the same time, create a great ending for a great trilogy of a great franchise / IP. It's a win / win for everyone. If Bioware thinks, the ending fits, they are obviously free to do so at the expense of a highly loyal and motivated fan base, as has been proven by the Retake movement. While revenue generation from us may be marginal, a good mouth-to-mouth propaganda may be profitable in the long run through merchandise and release editions.

Since video games are a highly interactive form of media, I would be very careful to apply strict rules regarding the handling of art. Even if it would be art per definition, ME 3 still is a mass commodity. Due to blockbuster projects, movies and video games have become quite alike. Every piece of art could be a movie, but not every movie could be a piece of art.

[Elios]

MystaisPC wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...
BioWare invoke the deus ex machina. That is NOT art.

Exactly.  And just to clarify:

A deus ex machina[/i] Latin: "god out of the machine"; plural: dei ex machina[/i]) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. 

FUN FACT Shep him/her self is is this on top of every thing else
ending wars in a hours that have be simmering for 100s of years

[Unit-Alpha]

Luc0s wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, OP, comparing ME to Dali? As someone with a lot of background in art history, I can tell you that's a terrible analogy.

The point, you missed it.

No, no. He got it quite fine.

No he didn't get the point I was making.

I can speak for myself, Luc0s.

I understood it.

And I disagreed. That too hard for you to comprehend?

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 12:50 .

[wantedman dan]

Luc0s wrote...

wantedman dan wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Also, OP, comparing ME to Dali? As someone with a lot of background in art history, I can tell you that's a terrible analogy.

The point, you missed it.

No, no. He got it quite fine.

No he didn't get the point I was making.

You're making a fallacious and incorrectly premised point to begin with, so no, he got it just fine.

[Hexley UK]

Luc0s wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...


Ask yourself how long do plays, movies, books etc last if the audience hates them? The simple answer is: They don't.

Yes, you are right, but ask yourself this: Does the audience hate Mass Effect? Or does the audience only hate 0,5% of Mass Effect (e.g. the ending of ME3)?

Yeah, go figure.

Easy...we hate the 0.5% if we didn't love the heck out of these games we wouldn't care enough to complain.

Modifié par Hexley UK, 24 mars 2012 - 12:50 .

[Unit-Alpha]

Grasich wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Grasich wrote...

I am enjoying this thread.

Do continue.

As am I.

I really enjoy these threads too much, don't I?

Possibly... nothing wrong with that though.

ENABLER!

[Aznable Char]

Luc0s wrote...

Aznable Char wrote...

You're right , it's absurd for most people to want to demand a better ending to a movie (although some try) .

Why is it absurd ?

Because most people simply don't watch the next movie .

Remember the failure that was M Night Shyamalan's "The Last Airbender" ?

Why haven't we seen a sequel yet ? The cartoon that ran was insanely popular even amongst older viewers . The movie , we all know , was crap . Yet no one demanded the movie be changed even though we all talked about how bad it was .

So why haven't we seen a sequel ? Because people who watch movies don't go and complain to M Night Shyamalan . People who don't like a movie just don't watch any more movies made by the same people . They just don't . And the studio loses money . The director loses money . Would you go watch another Shyamalan film ? You may , but do you think most people will ? No .

Shyamalan is out of a job . So let's pretend for a second that you're M. Night Shyamalan and you made a horrible movie . You've got some people who really loved Sixth Sense and The village and they come up to you and like 'gosh , if only you changed the ending to that movie I'd probably watch another film of yours . I liked your other movies , why couldn't it be like those ?"

Problem with movies is that there are no DLCs for movies . You can't just release a DVD and somehow you can take that movie you watched in theaters , take it home 2 weeks after it released on film and play a supplementary DVD . Movies ARE a different medium because their impact and their lifespan is IMMEDIATE .

Games we have here sitting at home are easy to redeploy through the new age of DLC .

Do you think if Shyamalan had a way to simply magicaly add a new or more 15 minutes into the end of the film at a fraction of the cost of making a whole new one and by doing so would restore confidence in him so that a good chunk of people would watch his next movie , do you think he would do it ?

I think he would do it .

Not because anyone forced him , but because he didn't want people just walking away on him .

We are giving BioWare a courtesy call right now . We are saying "okay , BioWare , I WAS going to leave you forever , but gosh darnit I want to give you a chance . If you change the ending , that'll show me you're serious about you and me . If not , I can go now"

I'll repeat that , WE ARE GIVING BIOWARE A COURTESY . Otherwise we'd all be off somewhere else playing skyrim or league of legends or crusader kings II or whatever . We are holding the line because we are the loyal ones . We are the ones who didn't like the ending who actually decided to stick around .

IN the end , we are more champions of BioWare than most because when they hit us with a bad ending , we stayed when we could have just walked away .

You are right, IF you are indeed "giving BioWare a courtesy". But I've seen plenty of people DEMANDING a better end, or else [insert something stupid here].


You have every right to voice your opinion. I will continue to voice mine too. I hate the ending as much as the next guy, but we have absolutely ZERO rights to make demands of BioWare. BioWare can simply ignore us and get away with it. I would honestly be dissapointed if BioWare would do that, but I would still respect them as artists.

Dali is my favorite painter. I love most of his art. But of course Dali also has some paintings that I do not like. I'm still supporting Dali however (though I doubt he cares, since he's pretty much death for over 20 years, but you get the point).

I just hope that regardless of what BioWare decides to do, they've learned something. Hopefully their DLC will give us some more closure and hopefully their next product will be better.

The word "Demanding" has gotten bad press because it is a matter of semantics because in the end our demands are just a keyword for "I STRONG WISH OH GOSH PLEASE" . We have every right to demand because demanding is a courtesy . Because after all , they can say no . Respect for artists doesn't mean you give them your money , either . I can respect a man who doesn't believe in what I believe , but don't ask me to give him any of my money . Proper respect for a person is to criticize his art . That's not hurting him . There was an excellent article somewhere before how criticizing is a good thing for artists and that real artists should not be afraid of it . I wish I had it on hand .

Don't you see that criticizing them is a labour of love ? The opposite of love is not hate : it is indifference . If we truly hated the art and the artist we would leave him . But here we are trying to say "My darling BioWare , this isn't good at all . This should be falling action and resolution etc etc etc" Sure we could be immature about it , but that will always happen because criticism is an art in itself . It is the art that is as painful as pruning flowers so that the most beautiful ones will grow . If you truly loved your friend , would you not say "John .. you shouldn't be taking heroin ... I think all this male prostitution you do isn't good . Here , how about we go just drive around for a while ? We can talk and do something better." That's not an analogy of what's happening here but that is an example of how Love and Criticism are not divorced . We are here because we are not indifferent . We hate the ending because we love BioWare .

[Madecologist]

CDRSkyShepard wrote...

Demanding to make Mass Effect better is now a bad thing? I'm not buying it.

I'm fighting so that this franchise can be forever remembered for all the good things, not for the crappy ending. As it stands now, this IP is destined to die as "that game with the crappy ending." (Yes, I have heard it referred to as such, and this is only the beginning.) Unfortunately, due to the way our minds are structured, one bad experience can ruin an entire memory...which means that this ending can ruin not just ME3, but ME1 and ME2 as well. Am I saying that it's reasonable to have it be ruined because the last 10 minutes were horrible? No. But then again, the mind is not a reasonable thing.

BioWare can either fix this, or let the last 10 minutes of the game sink the franchise. It's up to them.

I am not part of the Retake movement. But this is a statement from someone I do respect. Because this is the consequences I am speaking of and desire to occur as a message to Bioware for the mistake they have made.

My way or my desires, is bad for everyone.

Basically what I am saying is, I do not believe we can demand a new ending. But those demanding one are doing it because they love the franchise and want it to survive and are not as uncaring and ruthless as I am in their dissatisfaction.

[Mad-Hamlet]

I actually do agree with the sentiment that it is not our place to demand a new ending, it isn't.

What is with you people? You can do, demand, define, devour, disdain, dismiss, disregard, and decry anything you bloody well please. (Well, don't devour a car- that would be painful...and futile) but, Christ on a ******, literally, Jesus Christ Snack Food!, you and I can do anything we God Damn Well Please!

But the people we are demanding things from don't have to listen.

And that's it.

You may not have the desire to, you may not have the urge, or need or willingness to do things but you always, always, Always, have the right.

Thinking differently is not only weak, but dangerous.

Modifié par Mad-Hamlet, 24 mars 2012 - 12:52 .

[Elios]

Luc0s wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...


Ask yourself how long do plays, movies, books etc last if the audience hates them? The simple answer is: They don't.

Yes, you are right, but ask yourself this: Does the audience hate Mass Effect? Or does the audience only hate 0,5% of Mass Effect (e.g. the ending of ME3)?

Yeah, go figure.

the fact is that last .5% makes me hate ALL of Bioware and EA now so much i will not by any more Bioware or EA games till its fixed if ever

soo yea... just becouse the rest is good doesnt mean a small part cant just crap on the rest of it

[LittleDeadGirl]

I think the main point that no one can defend is that the endings are bad. Period. I don't need them to make a new ending. I wouldn't buy it if they did. I want them to realize it was a stupid nonsensical ending and this whole stomping of their feet "it's my party and I'll cry if I want to" thing people are doing is about as stupid. If you make a stupid product I won't buy it. Done. If you make stupid movies I will no longer support you as an actor/director ect. I honestly don't think they should make a new ending, they need to stand by the turd they released, have their noses rubbed into it and hopefully learn. Or don't and a new company will come along and full the gap. Done and done. We all do need to step back a little bit and let it go.

[Unit-Alpha]

Mad-Hamlet wrote...

I actually do agree with the sentiment that it is not our place to demand a new ending, it isn't.

What is with you people? You can do, demand, define, devour, disdain, dismiss, disregard, and decry anything you bloody well please. (Well, don't devour a car- that would be painful...and futile) but, Christ on a ******, literally, Jesus Christ Snack Food!, you and I can do anything we God Damn Well Please!

But the people we are demanding things don't have to listen.

And that's it.

You may not have the desire to, you may not have the urge, or need or willingness to do things but you always, always,Always, have the right.

Thinking differently is not only weak, but dangerous.

Damn straight, bro.

[ZodiEmish]

Hexley UK wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...


Ask yourself how long do plays, movies, books etc last if the audience hates them? The simple answer is: They don't.

Yes, you are right, but ask yourself this: Does the audience hate Mass Effect? Or does the audience only hate 0,5% of Mass Effect (e.g. the ending of ME3)?

Yeah, go figure.

Easy...we hate the 0.5% if we didn't love the heck out of these games we wouldn't care enough to complain.

^ another good point. If we didn't love this product. would we take the time to ask them to fix it before we go on to a different game company.

[Marque De Leon]

Man, why do I even bother? I've posted in like 6 pages now explaining to OP that demand=/=force and he still prattles on. I'm out.

[Hexley UK]

Elios wrote...

MystaisPC wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...
BioWare invoke the deus ex machina. That is NOT art.

Exactly.  And just to clarify:

A deus ex machina[/i] Latin: "god out of the machine"; plural: dei ex machina[/i]) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. 

FUN FACT Shep him/her self is is this on top of every thing else
ending wars in a hours that have be simmering for 100s of years

Except the protaganist can never be the deus ex machina.....