1311 réponses à ce sujet

[MatronAdena]

I never held on for " change" they will never " change" anything, thats a negative term no matter how it's looked, and costly, and hurts marketability.

You go for " offering alternatives, adding onto, continuing" expanding on"

growth words

they are positive, marketable, and don't utterly scrap what came before and diminish the work that came before it...

thats what Ive been looking for more or less.

[xxskyshadowxx]

wikkedjester wrote...

As an artist, myself I find this a time to celebrate gaming. For gaming to TRULY be viewed as art its need to be more than butt hurt “artist.”

http://www.oxm.co.uk...shock-infinite/

http://www.escapistm...-Ending-Scandal

(Sorry, he just makes himself an easy target.)

Gaming is an interactive medium, and that is the only thing that gaming brings to the table as far as art goes. Would I call WoW art? No, would I call Heavy Rain art, Yes.

However Gaming is also a mass market consumer product, now as an artist that does commissioned work, if I created something that the client didn’t like, I would not get paid. Sure I could hold the line with the “artistic integrity” argument, but that argument doesn’t put food on my table now does it? I ’compromise’ because though I may be an artist, I did not create what my patron wanted, I can ether change it or not get paid, what do you think happens?

Artist through out history have “compromised”, this “artistic integrity” concept is a product of the hipster non-conformist generation, a generation of artist who have platitudes and pleasantries thrown at them instead of cold hard truths.

So I guess the argument should be is Mass Effect 3 art?

My answer would be No, you sacrifice all “artistic integrity” when you pull stuff from the art and sell it to your consumer after the fact. It would be like me cutting a square out of a pitcher, selling you that pitcher then telling you , you can buy the rest of the pitcher for an extra 10 bucks. You don’t do that, you can sell me a pitcher, you can offer me a frame, or maybe another pitcher, or a few cool ideas on how to display said pitcher, but you can’t sell me the pitcher as if it was jigsaw puzzle.

Mass Effect in-particular needs to lose this battle , not because I simply want a better ending, its past that point. If it wants to be art, if gaming wants to be art, it needs to understand that criticism, and harsh criticism at that is the order of the day, and taking that criticism and incorporation it into your work is the only way to evolve the form. And when your desired form of art requires the direct interaction of people in more of a way than just reading or viewing it, then you must except the ‘player base’ as artisans as well, because with out them no one would appreciate your ‘magnum opus.’

Gaming can do one thing that no other art from can do, take fan feed back and implement it almost eminently. And that is what will make gaming truly art.

Very, very well said!

Modifié par xxskyshadowxx, 24 mars 2012 - 12:52 .

[cutegigi]

Luc0s wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...


Ask yourself how long do plays, movies, books etc last if the audience hates them? The simple answer is: They don't.

Yes, you are right, but ask yourself this: Does the audience hate Mass Effect? Or does the audience only hate 0,5% of Mass Effect (e.g. the ending of ME3)?

Yeah, go figure.

i can not speak for anyone else, but I have personally burn several books that I only hate 0.5% of it.
It was 0.5% too much of things that I dont like for me to keep.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

wikkedjester wrote...

No, would I call Heavy Rain art, Yes.

You just won my eternal support.

[Hexley UK]

Luc0s wrote...

Hexley UK wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

acidic-ph0 wrote...


Ask yourself how long do plays, movies, books etc last if the audience hates them? The simple answer is: They don't.

Yes, you are right, but ask yourself this: Does the audience hate Mass Effect? Or does the audience only hate 0,5% of Mass Effect (e.g. the ending of ME3)?

Yeah, go figure.

Easy...we hate the 0.5% if we didn't love the heck out of these games we wouldn't care enough to complain.

Complain as much as you can. I'll do the same. But don't expect Mass Effect to go down if BioWare changes nothing. The audience does not hate Mass Effect, the audience loves Mass Effect. They only hate that last 0,5% of it.

I don't expect anything...I just hope.

[Unit-Alpha]

Hexley UK wrote...

Elios wrote...

MystaisPC wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...
BioWare invoke the deus ex machina. That is NOT art.

Exactly.  And just to clarify:

A deus ex machina[/i] Latin: "god out of the machine"; plural: dei ex machina[/i]) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. 

FUN FACT Shep him/her self is is this on top of every thing else
ending wars in a hours that have be simmering for 100s of years

Except the protaganist can never be the deus ex machina.....

IMPOSSIBRU!

[durasteel]

I'm not demanding anything from BioWare, and I never have. What I am saying is this: If BioWare looks at that rushed, sloppy, rip-off of an ending and says "We are sticking by our artistic integrity," then they have no integrity in my mind. Integrity, artistic or otherwise, requires an ability to admit when you've screwed up and a willingness to correct your mistakes.

What that will mean is that I will not purchase another BioWare game until I see positive fan reaction. That means no more pre-orders, and if I'm going to miss out on the pre-order bonus I might as well wait 9 months or a year to get the "ultimate" edition for $30.

On the other hand, if BioWare show integrity and fixes their mistake, it will give me confidence that they are responsive and responsible, and I can count on them to do right by their fans. I will absolutely continue my practice of pre-ordering collector's editions and buying all the DLC on the day it is released.

That's not a demand, it is simply providing notice of the way that BioWare's response to this almost universal dissatisfaction will influence my future purchasing behavior.

I am, in other words, exactly as entitled to a fixed ending as BioWare is entitled to my continued premium patronage. No more, no less.

[ashdrake1]

withneelandi wrote...

I don't necessesarily think they should change the ending to mass effect 3. I don't think it was a good ending, but I am uncomfortable with the idea of a writer being presured by the fanbase to change something they have written after the fact.

There are a few reasons I don't think this argument holds up with mass effect 3...

The idea of "authorship" is far more complicated in a game like mass effect than in novel or film in the sense that it asks the player to take part and make choices on how the narrative will progress, the problem with mass effect 3's ending is not that it is bleak, or even that it is open ended, but that it seems to render all the choices the game asked the player to make meaningless. For me looking at the game as a narrative, it sets up a sort of 2 way narative with the player then chooses to ignore that convention at the narratives conclusion.

The idea of amending a text after the fact is not a new one, the idea of the directors cut is long established in "proper" art like movies. Especially where technology or time constraints have curtailed what the director could do. I strongly suspect the ending we got in mass effect 3 was less the creative teams vision and more a compromise of time or tecnology. It would be very hard for the team to state that in public but I that is the impression I get from playing the game. The last section felt rushed and disjointed from the rest of the story.

Finally, I think video games can be "art". I'm not sure mass effect 3 is. One of the things that makes art, art is that the primary motivation is "art for arts sake", i.e not to make profit. I find it hard to let a writer fall back on "artistic integrity" when a game ends with a prompt to buy future DLC.

All that said I am still torn on the idea of an amended ending. I think the end was terrible, but I think it would set a horrible example and would frankly lead to a campaign like this any time a game ends in a well thought out, but perhaps leftfield or unexpected way.

Basically, the end is terrible and I don't think we should defend it on the basis of artistic integrity but while chaning this ending seems reasonable it would set a terrible precident and lead to an internet campain to change the end of EVERY major video game franchise that dared take an unexpected approach. It would have a chilling effect on creativity in viedo game in the long term.

A developer will be wary of sparking such a campaign, and getting bad publicity or paying out the costs of developing new content and so won't take any risks when making games. That is far worse for gamers than this ending being rubbish.

So by that logic you are saying many great film makers do not want to make a profit on their films.  That is ludicrous.  Artist want to keep being able to make art.  They very much would like to turn a profit to enable this. 

Also harry potter is dumb.  Could have used the time spinner to save just about everyone.  I don't demand that be changed.  I hate all of the star wars prequels.  I hate the additions to star wars (btw is exactly what people are asking for.)  I was originally sold a product where Han shot first.  I was lied to by the original film.  I have yet to hear of one FTC complaint for Lucas to fix his endings.  I don't want to shoot the elusive man and hear him scream Nooooo!

[Grasich]

Mad-Hamlet wrote...

I actually do agree with the sentiment that it is not our place to demand a new ending, it isn't.

What is with you people? You can do, demand, define, devour, disdain, dismiss, disregard, and decry anything you bloody well please. (Well, don't devour a car- that would be painful...and futile) but, Christ on a ******, literally, Jesus Christ Snack Food!, you and I can do anything we God Damn Well Please!

But the people we are demanding things from don't have to listen.

And that's it.

You may not have the desire to, you may not have the urge, or need or willingness to do things but you always, always, Always, have the right.

Thinking differently is not only weak, but dangerous.

Very well put.

[xxskyshadowxx]

How come the dude complaining about people complaining about the ending has a "Retake" banner? Hell....I'd love Bioware to death if they gave us the endings they promised...but even I don't have a "Retake" banner.

Wonky.

[Madecologist]

durasteel wrote...

I'm not demanding anything from BioWare, and I never have. What I am saying is this: If BioWare looks at that rushed, sloppy, rip-off of an ending and says "We are sticking by our artistic integrity," then they have no integrity in my mind. Integrity, artistic or otherwise, requires an ability to admit when you've screwed up and a willingness to correct your mistakes.

What that will mean is that I will not purchase another BioWare game until I see positive fan reaction. That means no more pre-orders, and if I'm going to miss out on the pre-order bonus I might as well wait 9 months or a year to get the "ultimate" edition for $30.

On the other hand, if BioWare show integrity and fixes their mistake, it will give me confidence that they are responsive and responsible, and I can count on them to do right by their fans. I will absolutely continue my practice of pre-ordering collector's editions and buying all the DLC on the day it is released.

That's not a demand, it is simply providing notice of the way that BioWare's response to this almost universal dissatisfaction will influence my future purchasing behavior.

I am, in other words, exactly as entitled to a fixed ending as BioWare is entitled to my continued premium patronage. No more, no less.

This is exactly what I do support.

[crimzontearz]

no

sure they author cutscenes and key plot points but when something is nonsensical,out of place and just bad there is no sense in not changing it

[Dragoonlordz]

I find it interesting that the pack of hyenas in the group turn and cannibalize and ferociously attack their own ex-member the moment they no longer agree with them. Seems to appear now and again their true colours shine through.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 24 mars 2012 - 12:55 .

[Unit-Alpha]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

How come the dude complaining about people complaining about the ending has a "Retake" banner? Hell....I'd love Bioware to death if they gave us the endings they promised...but even I don't have a "Retake" banner.

Wonky.

I own Reptillian Bob a beer for your sig.

[Unit-Alpha]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I find it interesting that the pack of hyenas in the group turn and cannibalize and ferociously attack their own ex-member the moment they no longer agree with them. Seems to appear now and again their true colours shine through.

YOU'RE BACK! YAY!

He wasn't one of us. That's pretty obvious.

[wantedman dan]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I find it interesting that the pack of hyenas in the group turn and cannibalize and ferociously attack their own ex-member the moment they no longer agree with them. Seems to appear now and again their true colours shine through.

I'm curious as to what exactly you define "cannibalization" and "ferociously attack" as.

[Grasich]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I find it interesting that the pack of hyenas in the group turn and cannibalize and ferociously attack their own ex-member the moment they no longer agree with them. Seems to appear now and again their true colours shine through.

Of course we disagree with someone who uses a very poor argument against us. You find this odd, somehow?

[BIO18]

Shut the hell up all of ya, OP has a point of view, respect it.
I don(t understand why you can't calmly discus things ?

HurHurHur ! Durp Durp my opinion is what matters, oh wow yours does not ! Derpy derpy derp!

... anyway... I agree with the OP, and I do respect the others that gave a CONSTRUCTIVE counter argument and respect their point of view, even if I don't share it.

[Hexley UK]

durasteel wrote...

I'm not demanding anything from BioWare, and I never have. What I am saying is this: If BioWare looks at that rushed, sloppy, rip-off of an ending and says "We are sticking by our artistic integrity," then they have no integrity in my mind. Integrity, artistic or otherwise, requires an ability to admit when you've screwed up and a willingness to correct your mistakes.

What that will mean is that I will not purchase another BioWare game until I see positive fan reaction. That means no more pre-orders, and if I'm going to miss out on the pre-order bonus I might as well wait 9 months or a year to get the "ultimate" edition for $30.

On the other hand, if BioWare show integrity and fixes their mistake, it will give me confidence that they are responsive and responsible, and I can count on them to do right by their fans. I will absolutely continue my practice of pre-ordering collector's editions and buying all the DLC on the day it is released.

That's not a demand, it is simply providing notice of the way that BioWare's response to this almost universal dissatisfaction will influence my future purchasing behavior.

I am, in other words, exactly as entitled to a fixed ending as BioWare is entitled to my continued premium patronage. No more, no less.

Couldn't have put it any better myself, i'm the proud owner of collectors edition for most of their games. This is because for the most part I love them to bits. However I feel as a loyal customer I not only have the right but also the OBLIGATION to tell them when I think they are making mistakes because I want to continue to love their games.

[Marque De Leon]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

How come the dude complaining about people complaining about the ending has a "Retake" banner? Hell....I'd love Bioware to death if they gave us the endings they promised...but even I don't have a "Retake" banner.

Wonky.

Hell, I'm not even a participant of the movement and I'm arguing against the dude.

Sad part is, I'm actually on his side except for the part of his brain that can't differentiate between demand and force.

[katamuro]

durasteel wrote...

I'm not demanding anything from BioWare, and I never have. What I am saying is this: If BioWare looks at that rushed, sloppy, rip-off of an ending and says "We are sticking by our artistic integrity," then they have no integrity in my mind. Integrity, artistic or otherwise, requires an ability to admit when you've screwed up and a willingness to correct your mistakes.

What that will mean is that I will not purchase another BioWare game until I see positive fan reaction. That means no more pre-orders, and if I'm going to miss out on the pre-order bonus I might as well wait 9 months or a year to get the "ultimate" edition for $30.

On the other hand, if BioWare show integrity and fixes their mistake, it will give me confidence that they are responsive and responsible, and I can count on them to do right by their fans. I will absolutely continue my practice of pre-ordering collector's editions and buying all the DLC on the day it is released.

That's not a demand, it is simply providing notice of the way that BioWare's response to this almost universal dissatisfaction will influence my future purchasing behavior.

I am, in other words, exactly as entitled to a fixed ending as BioWare is entitled to my continued premium patronage. No more, no less.

Yeah. As responsible consumers we have the control to either give rise to greatness or  doom to oblivion. It does not matter if the game is art. Its bought for money by multitude of people expecting a product with certain functionalty. if it does not provide such we are within our rights to withold our support and future bussiness from a company that does not meet our demands/needs.

[MystaisPC]

Elios wrote...

MystaisPC wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...
BioWare invoke the deus ex machina. That is NOT art.

Exactly.  And just to clarify:

A deus ex machina[/i] Latin: "god out of the machine"; plural: dei ex machina[/i]) is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. 

FUN FACT Shep him/her self is is this on top of every thing else
ending wars in a hours that have be simmering for 100s of years

Wait?  Wha?  

You actually consider Shephard, who has been the main character since the first second of the Mass Effect series, to be a deus ex machina?  Wow, just wow.

[DreamTension]

After reading this, I am still holding the line. It's insightful, but you cannot compare video games and movies. You cannot compare music and movies. Hell, you cannot compare TV and movies.
Stop comparing video games to movies.

Video games are INTERACTIVE experiences. Ever since Pong, Mario, Goldeneye, Halo, GTA, and Mass Effect.

As times have changed, the experience has become more cinematic due to the advancements in technology. But that does not make it a movie.

And many of these writers/developers are using generalizations and none have mentioned the issues anybody actually has. They are using blanket, "they don't like it" and not "they don't like it because..."
Eh. It's still a good read, but I think there was not an understanding of the actual issue (some even said they never played or don't know what the issue is).

[Unit-Alpha]

wantedman dan wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I find it interesting that the pack of hyenas in the group turn and cannibalize and ferociously attack their own ex-member the moment they no longer agree with them. Seems to appear now and again their true colours shine through.

I'm curious as to what exactly you define "cannibalization" and "ferociously attack" as.

Anything that the pro-Retake movement says, does, or insinuates.