1311 réponses à ce sujet

[Unit-Alpha]

Luc0s wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

I noticed something.

This has become a need versus want debate. The most basic debate in psychology. I hope I am not the only one that realised this...

I'm also quite aware of this. That's why I no longer wish to continue this debate. This is pointless. We're all talking straight past each other instead of with each other.

I've voiced my opinion. I've said what I wanted to say. Now BSN can deal with it the way they want. They can spam this entire thread and get it locked if they want, it only shows how mature the BSN truly is.

You're back!

[Zix13]

Luc0s wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

I find it interesting that the pack of hyenas in the group turn and cannibalize and ferociously attack their own ex-member the moment they no longer agree with them. Seems to appear now and again their true colours shine through.

YOU'RE BACK! YAY!

He wasn't one of us. That's pretty obvious.

No true scotsman fallacy.

I truly was "one of you", but not anymore. Just look at my sig to see the proof that I indeed was part of the Retake movement. I even donated $10 to Child's Play to support the Retake movement (and to support Child's Play ofcourse).

You switched teams and are now outright attacking Retake people? Over one article? Yeah, you weren't fully on our side to begin with.

God, you would do so well in communist China or the Soviet Union.

Still a non-true scotsman fallacy.

I'm not attacking anyone directly. I'm only "attacking" the movement itself. YOU'RE the one who's attacking me personally. You're acting like a little child with a temper-tantrum. Grow up.

I just reported your post. Personal attacks are not premitted on the BSN.

Yeah, how did I attack you personally?

I didn't. Reported for attacking people with the WRONG statement.

You guys (especially you) are really childish.

I think I finally understand why this forum has such a bad reputation on the internet (on other forums and even outside forums BSN has a bad reputation).

I'm done with this. I'll be hanging on The Witcher forums for those who wish to speak with me without these children interfering.

See ya!

Gotta love 12 year olds who think they're smart.

Luc0s wrote...

Yes it it. The fact that you do not understand the difference only shows your ignorance.

Luc0s wrote...

Gosh, I didn't know BSN was so dumb and illiterate. 

Luc0s wrote...

GUYS PLEASE STOP FIGHTING!

My thread will get locked because you guys cannot behave like mature adults. Take your petty insults and childish behavior somewhere else please! THANK YOU!

[xxskyshadowxx]

ZodiEmish wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


You guys (especially you) are really childish.

I think I finally understand why this forum has such a bad reputation on the internet (on other forums and even outside forums BSN has a bad reputation).

I'm done with this. I'll be hanging on The Witcher forums for those who wish to speak with me without these children interfering.

See ya!

100 Quatloos says he replys again.

I'm not betting with those odds....

but then again...

....the priiiiize!

[Grakua]

The "cutscenes" and "endings" were advertised to be customized in a number of ways in regards to choices the player made throughout the series. They were not. This is the same tired "you can't change art" rhetoric that has fallen on its face already. The ending, as is, is poorly carried out.

This isn't a matter of artistic disagreement - but poorly written and poorly carried out storytelling. The ending was cliche, riddled with plot holes, and incredibly generic (in that all of the endings were the same and it didn't seem to matter what choices the player made.) If you were won over by the tired "oh no, the ending is exempt because it's art" argument, I find it hard to believe that you were ever "holding the line" to begin with.

[Unit-Alpha]

ZodiEmish wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


You guys (especially you) are really childish.

I think I finally understand why this forum has such a bad reputation on the internet (on other forums and even outside forums BSN has a bad reputation).

I'm done with this. I'll be hanging on The Witcher forums for those who wish to speak with me without these children interfering.

See ya!

100 Quatloos says he replys again.

Already did. Couldn't even hold off for a few minutes.

[ZodiEmish]

jreezy wrote...

Pottumuusi wrote...

Hasn't this been covered before?
They have the right to make any sort of ending they want.
I have a right to think that their ending is terrible and say that it would be better if they did X.
They have the right to change or not change the endings if they want to. They just have to decide if they like their "artistic integrity" or whatever better than they like my money.

They already got your money.

Yes and No. You forget that a large part of their profit will come from DLC. that is why Mass Effect  2 had 60 dollars worth of DLC, and why Mas Effect 3 has an ad at the end of the game saying that DLC is on the way. So they have half of our money.

[withneelandi]

I don't think it really makes sense to sort of remove the cut scene as utterly non interactive elements of the narrative, sure the player by it's nature doesn't have a direct impact on that part of the narrative but there is still only one narrative happening, and it is interactive in nature.

To explain, comic books tell a story in words and pictures, but you can't treat the words and pictures as seperate from each other even thought they may be created by different people, just like a cut scene they are just different tools used to tell the same story that work together.

I don't think you can't concider them in isolation in the way the OP wants us to. Non interactive cut scenes are just an element of a story which is still strongly interactive in nature, not a seperate non interactive element.

[aliengmr1]

I will accept whatever decision they make. But I will also challenge them to do the absolute best job they can. That ending was not there best, period.

Journalists, writers, bloggers, and whoever else can coddle Bioware all they want, but it won't make the product the best it can be. Fans aren't always right, but you ignore them at your peril (financially). The best games build a community where feedback is encouraged. All we have done is ask them to change fix a poor ending, they have every right to ignore us. Just like we have every right not to buy DLC from them. If we all start to sit back not challenge developers to their best they won't.

[RazorrX]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

RazorrX wrote...
(snip)
But I digress - In short: Chris Avellone says it is okay so it is okay. 

Glad you're thinking for yourself

Yep!  Just like Chris Avellone told me to! 

[Rockpopple]

A few temporary bans should be handed out, the way people are acting in this thread. Fortunately the mods have gone home for the weekend, so it's like a party with the parents away. Have at it!

Modifié par Rockpopple, 24 mars 2012 - 01:22 .

[ZodiEmish]

xxskyshadowxx wrote...

ZodiEmish wrote...

Luc0s wrote...


You guys (especially you) are really childish.

I think I finally understand why this forum has such a bad reputation on the internet (on other forums and even outside forums BSN has a bad reputation).

I'm done with this. I'll be hanging on The Witcher forums for those who wish to speak with me without these children interfering.

See ya!

100 Quatloos says he replys again.

I'm not betting with those odds....

but then again...

....the priiiiize!

Okay... 400 Quatloos say that he will make another thread, or post in another thread. 500 if he does about the same topic.

Bets are up.

[Grasich]

durasteel wrote...

The worst part is that in this case, there is no "seemingly unsolvable problem." The AI/Organic issue has already been resolved in the Legion and EDI plot lines--synthetics are people, too. This unit has a soul. Joker has a girlfriend. We have closure, already.

Not only does the Star Child Reaper God appear to suddenly and abruptly solve the problem, it first announces by devine fiat that the problem still exists, unsolved and menacing. It's one thing to use your plot device to suddenly solve the big problem, it is quite another to use your plot device to derail the plot, announce a new central conflict in the narrative that the protagonist doesn't care anything about, and then conclude the entire story by forcing a choice among nonsensical "solutions" to this new irrelevant problem.

Did anyone go into the final act thinking "Damn, what am I going to do about artificial intelligence--it's such a threat to organic life!"? No, you didn't. You went into the final act wondering how Shepard was going to stop the giant space monsters from destroying all the space-faring races of the galaxy, starting with the humans.

The giant space monsters were, of course, robots... but it didn't really matter. If the Reapers were giant psychic space cockroaches and indoctrination was some kind of space cockroach hive mind thing, Shepard and the rest of the galaxy would have done exactly the same thing. AI was a complete non-issue. Keeping the galaxy from getting trashed, that was the central motivating factor of my Shepard. You cannot prevent the Star Child Reaper God from trashing the galaxy, so the end just offered three colors of failure.

Now, after putting all those hours into each of my several Shepards, I am not satisfied with inevitable, unavoidable failure. I don't care about AI. My Shepard has AI friends. I care about saving the galaxy, and if there is no ability, no matter what choices I have made, to actually save the God damn galaxy in the end, then the end is a steaming pile of crap. That's not art, that's insulting.

I approve of this post. Well said, sir.

[wantedman dan]

Luc0s wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

I noticed something.

This has become a need versus want debate. The most basic debate in psychology. I hope I am not the only one that realised this...

I'm also quite aware of this. That's why I no longer wish to continue this debate. This is pointless. We're all talking straight past each other instead of with each other.

I've voiced my opinion. I've said what I wanted to say. Now BSN can deal with it the way they want. They can spam this entire thread and get it locked if they want, it only shows how mature the BSN truly is.

wb

[Ender99]

They may be artists, but they are not "just" artists, they are also a company. A company which made specific promises, and then did not deliver on them. I, as a customer, have the right to demand what they originally promised. If they refuse to do this, then I also have the right to refuse to spend another penny on this company again.

Hold the line for as long as it takes.

[Marque De Leon]

RazorrX wrote...

Yep!  Just like Chris Avellone told me to! 

Nice! +1:wizard:

[Unit-Alpha]

Rockpopple wrote...

A few temporary bans should be handed out, the way people are acting in this thread. Fortunately the mods have gone home for the weekend, so it's like a party with the parents away. Have at it!

Rockpopple's approval is as good as any mod's.

[poundoffleshaa]

I think people should demand things be made better and have the right to protest something they believe is wrong in any way legal. There is evidence such a ret-con could help both sides it certainly helped Bethesda make more money (Broken Steel and all the subsequent DLC being made possible by the retcon).

[Surprise Guest]

If Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings had flawed, contradictory endings?

The Publishers would not have released them until they were changed.

If a movie has a flawed, contradictory ending?

It would generally not make it past the screenplay stage. Otherwise recieve poor sales and poor reviews.

Mass Effect's ending was somehow avoided all of this, so the trilogy's legacy will remain as "That Science Fiction series with the Poor/Controversial (for the wrong reasons) endings".

It derserves to be remembered as one of the best science fiction franchises of all time, so while the damage has already been done I really hope bioware does their best to fix it.

While gaming press and companies seem keen to discuss the notion of games being art etc. I don't think we've ever denied that Mass Effect is art. It is. But art is something transformable, art is a commodity, and art like Mass Effect deserves to be remembered for the right reasons. Not the agenda of publishers and press.

[justlogme]

Luc0s wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

Are movies art? If you answer is "yes" than you should also understand why the non-interactive parts of video-games are art.

  except movie and book endings can and have been changed. Bioware saying it wants to be a starving artist is all well in good doesn't mean we have to support them anymore and buy their art sight unseen especially when they make it out to be something it isn't

[ashdrake1]

Surprise Guest wrote...

If Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings had flawed, contradictory endings?

The Publishers would not have released them until they were changed.

If a movie has a flawed, contradictory ending?

It would generally not make it past the screenplay stage. Otherwise recieve poor sales and poor reviews.

Mass Effect's ending was somehow avoided all of this, so the trilogy's legacy will remain as "That Science Fiction series with the Poor/Controversial (for the wrong reasons) endings".

It derserves to be remembered as one of the best science fiction franchises of all time, so while the damage has already been done I really hope bioware does their best to fix it.

While gaming press and companies seem keen to discuss the notion of games being art etc. I don't think we've ever denied that Mass Effect is art. It is. But art is something transformable, art is a commodity, and art like Mass Effect deserves to be remembered for the right reasons. Not the agenda of publishers and press.

Harry potter is flawed.  They have a time spinner.  There is no reason any of the good guys had to die.  It is a huge plot hole put there to tell a compelling story.

[MeganHunter]

wantedman dan wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
You guys (especially you) are really childish.

I think I finally understand why this forum has such a bad reputation on the internet (on other forums and even outside forums BSN has a bad reputation).

I'm done with this. I'll be hanging on The Witcher forums for those who wish to speak with me without these children interfering.

See ya!

Yeah, you sure do have a lot of valence in labeling others as children.

I feel bad for him, because there's nothing wrong with his initial assertion, even if I disagree. But he wasn't expecting the speed or severity of the response (trying to watch pages were jumping up left and right) and spent his whole time here just sniping at people. The internet, she is a harsh mistress that makes us dance for her amusement.

[Dreogan]

Due to a lack of consistency, competence, and clarity Mass Effect 3 is failed art. Ergo, it can be changed and must be changed to preserve the artist's integrity.

Can I force Bioware to do this? No. Should Bioware force itself to do this? Yes. Is it fine for me to give Bioware an economic push? Absolutely, that's my right as a consumer.

[AzaZeLgaming]

blah blah blah blah

http://gotgame.com/2...fect-3s-ending/

... read & learn plz.

[acidic-ph0]

Luc0s wrote...

This is not about sense, this is about us demanding BioWare to change it. Just now do I realize how wrong that is.


Yes, the ending is bad, but it's on BioWare to decide what they want to do with it.

If they want ot change the ending, then AWESOME, more respect for BioWare and a lot of happy fans.

If they don't want to change the ending, then to bad, but I'll still requally respect BioWare as fellow game-developers.

Except Bioware SHOULD change the ending if they want to keep such a large and loyal fanbase. When a company blatantly lies through numerous advertisements about their product and then refuses to change it when faced with overwhelming criticism and anger, then, as a company, they are commiting suicide. 

Or at the very least, destroying a huge fanbase and ruining their credibility for years and years to come. And believe me, Bioware is first and foremost a business and should be treated as such. As Forbes has constantly pointed out... everything Bioware has done regarding this whole ending debacle is VERY bad for long term business/customer satisfaction. 

And saying that you will respect them if they don't change the ending... Not to be mean or anything, but don't you think that's a little naive? Seriously, Bioware just handed you a turd that you paid anyehere from 60-80 bucks on and every statement they've publically made regarding our dissatisfaction has been condescending, passive-aggressive and patronizing. Do you honestly think that they deserve respect for treating us like that? 

Sorry, but they lost my respect entirely the moment I saw that Starchild bit, regardless of how awesome everything up till that point was. It was like finding a giant rat turd at the bottom of a cup of icecream that you just spent 300 hours eating for over five years. 

But I digress, if you honestly DO NOT feel burned or lied to then it makes complete sense to continue to believe in Bioware. In fact, I would completely support your stance if I felt the same way about the company.

Unfortunately for me, that is not the case... So I for one, and I'm sure many others feel the same, will no longer trust a company that has treated it's audience with such blatant disrespect. From trying to pass off a schlocky ending which was falsely advertised, to every patronizing statement released in the past couple of weeks... Bioware should and will be held accountable.