1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Pottumuusi]

Luc0s wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

Are movies art? If you answer is "yes" than you should also understand why the non-interactive parts of video-games are art.

Art is pretty much a bull**** word and a bull**** concept because it is so vague and subjective and it is in no way exempt from critique.

[Theb82]

Harry Potter or LOTR are not interactive games which include DLC that edits them and changes gameplay.

[Aesieru]

Luc0s wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?

Did you even read my entire opening post? You clearly didn't, did you?

Demanding a patch or change in gameplay =/= demanding a different story or a different end to that story.

Gameplay is not part of a video-games "artistic integrity". But narrative and cutscenes are very much part of a video-games "artistic integrity". I already explained this in my OP.

ART IS CHANGED ALL THE TIME

[Fruxie]

*holds the line x2!* Boooyah! You can't stop me.

[Unit-Alpha]

Luc0s wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?

Did you even read my entire opening post? You clearly didn't, did you?

Demanding a patch or change in gameplay =/= demanding a different story or a different end to that story.

Gameplay is not part of a video-games "artistic integrity". But narrative and cutscenes are very much part of a video-games "artistic integrity". I already explained this in my OP.

Lol, artistic integrity is for actual artists.

Mass Effect is not art. Period. There are a few games that actually are, but ME isn't one of them. Dear Ester, Child of Eden, etc. are.

[Taleroth]

Luc0s wrote...

Gameplay is not part of a video-games "artistic integrity". But narrative and cutscenes are very much part of a video-games "artistic integrity". I already explained this in my OP.

You are wrong. 100% wrong. The notion that art is only the non-variable elements is incredibly silly. Even gameplay is a guided experience. And cutscenes take into account variables, sure fewer variables, but the distinction is based on an arbitrary qualification of whether it is enough interactivity.

We have interactive books and movies. We have interactive cutscenes. Pretending there's a solid line between art and non-art in a game is simply absurd. Art is about conveying ideas. Gameplay does that as much as anything else.

Even bugs convey things. They are the brush style of programming. They tell you about the artist. The things he valued in his work. The things he felt were expendable. Just what he focused on or was willing to sacrifice.

Modifié par Taleroth, 23 mars 2012 - 11:58 .

[Hexley UK]

Luc0s wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?

Did you even read my entire opening post? You clearly didn't, did you?

Demanding a patch or change in gameplay =/= demanding a different story or a different end to that story.

Gameplay is not part of a video-games "artistic integrity". But narrative and cutscenes are very much part of a video-games "artistic integrity". I already explained this in my OP.

But dude....nobodies "Making" anyone do anything....we're criticising it and then its up to them....

[Reptilian Rob]

Luc0s wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

Are movies art? If you answer is "yes" than you should also understand why the non-interactive parts of video-games are art.

WRONG.

Movies are a two hours endeavor that cost around 12.99, games are anywhere from a ten to one hundred hour endeavor costing around 59.99.

When a company lies to it's consumer base and sells a defunct product it is no longer art and is no longer justified.

Also, games/=/movies in the slightest. One you mentallity participate in, the other you both mentally and physically partake in making it more or less a physical/emotional reaction rather than a critisism based notion. 

Cutscenes are in line with movies, and if the movie does not deliver on it's promises you usually either get a fixed product (IE Alien Anthology) or get your money back. 

[Drxx]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

'k, bye!

+1:O

[j78]

Really this again ?

[Unit-Alpha]

Linkforlife wrote...

At least we still have Marauder Shields as the final boss, that still matters lol.

Never forget.

[dantesfire10]

Pottumuusi wrote...

Hasn't this been covered before?
They have the right to make any sort of ending they want.
I have a right to think that their ending is terrible and say that it would be better if they did X.
They have the right to change or not change the endings if they want to. They just have to decide if they like their "artistic integrity" or whatever better than they like my money.

i can agree with this. though i have my own personal opinion on "art" and its "integrity"

[meteng]

A cutscene which plays out a player's choice is exactly the same as the rest of the gameplay.

[WeAreLegionWTF]

bioware doesnt need to change the ending persay...just make it7 make sense.

not this....

[AllergevKev]

I agree, we shouldn't be too pissed that we don't, but we are completely fine in complaining about the ending and expressing our desire for some changes.

[Karrie788]

No, we can't demand a new ending to LOTR. It's a movie. The difference here is that video games are interactive, and that we have been promised FROM DAY ONE that our choices would matter in the end.

They clearly didn't.

So when we're being lied to, I think we do have the right to request for a new ending. Especially since we threw, for some of us, no less than 80 bucks for ME3.

Now I agree that Bioware can do as they damn well please. But from a business point of view, I think it's in their best interest to not ****** off their vocal fanbase.

Modifié par Karrie788, 23 mars 2012 - 11:56 .

[Baronesa]

uhmm What is your opinion on Mass Effect Deception?

BioWare and Del Rey Books are changing the book to accommodate costumer's feedback.

Why is it ok for BioWare to do that on the 4th Book of Mass Effect, but not good for ME3 endings?

[Panicomatic]

Well, based on what we've been provided by Mr. Muzyka they aren't changing the ending, instead they are expanding on the current one. So It's a nice compromise, we'll get closure and they can keep their artistic integrity.

And who know, maybe the indoctrination theory holds true and we haven't really experienced the full ending yet. "Lots of speculation for everyone" as many have recently said.

[Atmospeer]

They can hardly do whatever they want when it's the consumer that decides whether their company survives or not.

[krogstor]

They can design the ending however the hell they want, but if I don't like it, I won't pay for one of their endings again. It's a matter of economics, you see, if developer ___ wants $___ for their software, but their software doesn't accomplish what I want it to accomplish I cannot justify paying (and continuing) to pay for it. In most cases, if I do invest in a product, I want it to be of a specific standard and value. I will or will not make future purchases based on whether or not that standard and value has been met.

With Mass Effect 1, they set the bar very high, with 2 it was slightly lower, but still incredibly high, 3 lived up to these expectations as well, though the ending to 3 did not. Now if they make future games, taking into consideration how high this bar has already been set, they need to clear it with flying colors, not below expectation.

Economics are a matter of supply and demand, I'm not going to demand a product that doesn't supply what I wanted, thus making any potential purchase null & void.

Modifié par krogstor, 23 mars 2012 - 11:57 .

[Panicomatic]

WeAreLegionWTF wrote...

*snip*

Your picture, sir, is epic and genius. 

Modifié par Panicomatic, 23 mars 2012 - 11:58 .

[Unit-Alpha]

Luc0s wrote...

RogueBot wrote...

Maybe you should read the whole article. They all make good points-- no need to latch onto one quote in particular.

I did read the whole article. And it seems pretty clear to me that though the developers are not against changing the ending in a game, they do think that demanding a change in the ending is wrong. I agree with that.

Wait, so you are saying they are spineless for caving?

Good job defending Bioware!

[Hexley UK]

Luc0s wrote...

RogueBot wrote...

Maybe you should read the whole article. They all make good points-- no need to latch onto one quote in particular.

I did read the whole article. And it seems pretty clear to me that though the developers are not against changing the ending in a game, they do think that demanding a change in the ending is wrong. I agree with that.

Yea but it's not like anyones holding a gun to their head....they don't have to change anything...

[RogueBot]

Mass Effect 3 is commercial art. Hell, they even hired JESSICA CHOBOT to play a character because of the publicity and marketing it would bring, instead of an actual voice actor. Do you think they were concerned with "artistic integrity" when they did that?

They can change the ending without compromising the integrity of commercial art. It might hurt Bioware's feelings, but it's completely normal (and expected) to alter a piece of commercial art when customers are unsatisfied.