1311 réponses à ce sujet

[Unit-Alpha]

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

I'm sorry BUT THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST STUPIDEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ON THIS DRAMA

WHAT CONTRACT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONTRACT IS?

I don't think *you* know what the reader-writer contract is.

There is no contract FULL STOP

Oh dear god...

Seriously, dear god.

A contract doesn't have to be a piece of paper. This is a metaphorical term for the idea behind it.

[Nicky 192]

The word artistic integrity has been thrown around a lot lately. So we as consumers have no right to criticise and request change if a product is not as advertised then?. It's a game marketed on the basis that you shape your own shepard, "your choices matter".and ultimately they don't endgame. Artistic integrity should not be used to defend a rushed unfinished product.

[Grasich]

TheGreenAlloy wrote...

 BioWare lied about the ending. Holding the line is fine.

There is way too much logic in this statement, you are clearly in the wrong place.

[Unit-Alpha]

Torrible wrote...

I love how people regard every bit of marketing puffery as false advertising. If instead Bioware had said "We can't give any guarantees about the game or its ending", would you have bought it solely based on the trailers, demo and other gameplay footage? If so, you can't claim misleading advertisement.

Yes, I would have, because it's Mass Effect, a fantastic franchise.

[aliengmr1]

Im trying to understand the logic here.

Ignoring the people who buy your "art" in favor of your own hubris...is good?

[Heather Cline]

Too long didn't read. I respect your decision to change your mind. However I disagree with your view and that is how it is. We as consumers were lied to. Also the game once it left the dev's hands and was sold as a product since stopped being 'art' and was considered a product and thus the lies and the ad campaigns were promises that Bioware didn't keep. It's the consumers rights in a capitalist economy to demand better, to demand a change.

Arthur Conan Doyle killed off originally Sherlock Holmes but due to fan outrage had to rewrite the book and kept him alive and going.

The writer of Harry Potter was going to kill off Harry Potter but because the fans loved his character so much she rewrote it so that he lived.

So this thing called art and artistic integrity for a PRODUCT is a load of crap and that is the bottom line truth.

Mail Box

This person here at time stamp 11:01 talks about the ME3 endings and your rights as a consumer in a capitalist world. Bioware made a game, if they made it for themselves it is art. But they did not. They made it for people to buy, to consume. As such the game is no longer art but a product. If you bought a defective product would you not want to get a refund or a replacement? What if the people told you no because it's considered a work of art and cannot be replaced or refunded? Would you accept that? No you would not.

So your argument and the argument of Bioware that it is art is a load of crap and therefore has no reasoning in the debate. Fact of the matter is Bethesda already set a precedence for this by creating Broken Steel an alternate endings DLC. What we are asking for and demanding is the same from Bioware.

This is my thoughts on this.

[Unit-Alpha]

aliengmr1 wrote...

Im trying to understand the logic here.

Ignoring the people who buy your "art" in favor of your own hubris...is good?

I feel like the OP and several others could teach a college course about how to not do business, except the college would have to tell them that they are supposed to talk about how to do business.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 01:46 .

[IcyDude]

I don't want the ending to be changed. I just want them to fix the plot-holes and show us our crew a little more.

[Grasich]

aliengmr1 wrote...

Im trying to understand the logic here.

Ignoring the people who buy your "art" in favor of your own hubris...is good?

According to a lot of the anti-retake people... yes, that is correct.

[Unit-Alpha]

IcyDude wrote...

I don't want the ending to be changed. I just want them to fix the plot-holes and show us our crew a little more.

AKA more sexy time.

Yeah, it's a bit unrealistic to think they'll change the endings.

[Cadiwen]

durasteel wrote...

Doesn't matter whether the OP changed his mind. I'm prepared to take him at his word and not doubt his sincerity. His current position, though, is really only different from the "retake" position in semantics, not substance.

We all agree that the end sucks. We all agree that BioWare should fix it. Whether you think that we should specifically petition BioWare for the fix, or we should simply register our dislike and BioWare, being responsive to their customers, should decide on their own to fix it is just blah blah blah hot air.

If I make something for someone and it is so crappy that the other person expresses dissatisfaction, I should fix it. It isn't an issue of entitlement, or demands, or obligation. It's a simple matter of taking pride in my work, admitting my mistakes, and being willing to correct them.

This isn't rocket surgery.

+1

[Dreogan]

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

I'm sorry BUT THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST STUPIDEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ON THIS DRAMA

WHAT CONTRACT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONTRACT IS?

I don't think *you* know what the reader-writer contract is.

There is no contract FULL STOP

There is, actually. It's not printed on paper, but it doesn't need to be. For Mass Effect to be "valid" fiction for the masses, it cannot break the suspension of disbelief. The writer-reader contract is a simple way of stating the author cannot break the suspension of disbelief of his audience without the audience rejecting the fiction.

Of course, if you break the suspension of disbelief, fiction ceases to exist. A fictive world doesn't exist on a disc or on paper, it exists in the fictive dream: in the audience's mind.

Modifié par Dreogan, 24 mars 2012 - 01:47 .

[Dark Cider]

Goals may be different, but the theme is the same, ultimately everyone who was holding the line wanted the ending to change, regardless of degree. Doesn't mean you aren't holding the line anymore, your just holding it in a different way. Good for you. Ultimately it'll come down to Bioware to rectify the solution, we can only offer advice and solutions. Once they make their decision, the community will either love or hate it, but the ultimate goal is still to inform them of the horrible end and hope they fix it.

And software is NOT ART.  It's software.  The whole art argument is MOOT.  Photoshop makes ART, it itself isn't the art.  When it's missing features it's up to the users to inform the designers until it meets their criteria.

Modifié par Dark Cider, 24 mars 2012 - 01:49 .

[Dav3VsTh3World]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

I'm sorry BUT THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST STUPIDEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ON THIS DRAMA

WHAT CONTRACT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONTRACT IS?

I don't think *you* know what the reader-writer contract is.

There is no contract FULL STOP

Oh dear god...

Seriously, dear god.

A contract doesn't have to be a piece of paper. This is a metaphorical term for the idea behind it.

And yet people are still using it like it has some sort of legal binding which is complete BullS#!# Not to mention that the theory of such contract is extremly flawed since not everyone treats the content in the same way, need I remind you that there a still a large handful of people that did like the endings, the ones who are too afraid to come onto these forums because of the angry mob that has taken it over.

[Apathy1989]

Luc0s wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

Are movies art? If you answer is "yes" than you should also understand why the non-interactive parts of video-games are art.

They can't be both? Films and games are group projects, with many voices. Films often will have viewings of the ending so they can get reactions, and change it accordingly. The audience becomes part of the voice.

Nothing is pure, any attempts to impose superficial rules over something because of a single attribute is foolish and will do more damage than good.

[Jackal7713]

Torrible wrote...

I love how people regard every bit of marketing puffery as false advertising. If instead Bioware had said "We can't give any guarantees about the game or its ending", would you have bought it solely based on the trailers, demo and other gameplay footage? If so, you can't claim misleading advertisement.

Do I have to pull the quotes?  Bioware flat out said some BS. Please don't go saying they didn't, its insulting.

[wikkedjester]

ashdrake1 wrote...

wikkedjester wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

withneelandi wrote...

I don't necessesarily think they should change the ending to mass effect 3. I don't think it was a good ending, but I am uncomfortable with the idea of a writer being presured by the fanbase to change something they have written after the fact.

There are a few reasons I don't think this argument holds up with mass effect 3...

The idea of "authorship" is far more complicated in a game like mass effect than in novel or film in the sense that it asks the player to take part and make choices on how the narrative will progress, the problem with mass effect 3's ending is not that it is bleak, or even that it is open ended, but that it seems to render all the choices the game asked the player to make meaningless. For me looking at the game as a narrative, it sets up a sort of 2 way narative with the player then chooses to ignore that convention at the narratives conclusion.

The idea of amending a text after the fact is not a new one, the idea of the directors cut is long established in "proper" art like movies. Especially where technology or time constraints have curtailed what the director could do. I strongly suspect the ending we got in mass effect 3 was less the creative teams vision and more a compromise of time or tecnology. It would be very hard for the team to state that in public but I that is the impression I get from playing the game. The last section felt rushed and disjointed from the rest of the story.

Finally, I think video games can be "art". I'm not sure mass effect 3 is. One of the things that makes art, art is that the primary motivation is "art for arts sake", i.e not to make profit. I find it hard to let a writer fall back on "artistic integrity" when a game ends with a prompt to buy future DLC.

All that said I am still torn on the idea of an amended ending. I think the end was terrible, but I think it would set a horrible example and would frankly lead to a campaign like this any time a game ends in a well thought out, but perhaps leftfield or unexpected way.

Basically, the end is terrible and I don't think we should defend it on the basis of artistic integrity but while chaning this ending seems reasonable it would set a terrible precident and lead to an internet campain to change the end of EVERY major video game franchise that dared take an unexpected approach. It would have a chilling effect on creativity in viedo game in the long term.

A developer will be wary of sparking such a campaign, and getting bad publicity or paying out the costs of developing new content and so won't take any risks when making games. That is far worse for gamers than this ending being rubbish.

So by that logic you are saying many great film makers do not want to make a profit on their films.  That is ludicrous.  Artist want to keep being able to make art.  They very much would like to turn a profit to enable this. 

Also harry potter is dumb.  Could have used the time spinner to save just about everyone.  I don't demand that be changed.  I hate all of the star wars prequels.  I hate the additions to star wars (btw is exactly what people are asking for.)  I was originally sold a product where Han shot first.  I was lied to by the original film.  I have yet to hear of one FTC complaint for Lucas to fix his endings.  I don't want to shoot the elusive man and hear him scream Nooooo!

If you believe that then you have missed the point of games becoming art, games are not art because they can do the exact same thing film, music, and literature can do, its art because of the one thing it can do that no other from can. Adapt, adapt to the fan base, adapt to the will of said fan base, it is the interaction, and the maker/player relationship that dictated this from of art.  

And will ether be the reason for its success or failure. 

As for your film argument, your right no one if forcing Bioware to change the ending. If they so believed they were right they would stand buy it, but if they change it, its not because a “lack of artistic integrity” it because the integrity never existed, and they want fans to keep buying their products.

They can look at this from the view of an artist or a business. What do you think will win?  

It is because of buisness that doing this is such a bad idea.  I dont' want to get reported as a troll for copy pasting my response to his response.  But I made my views on that there. please read that and respond to it.  I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

What page is it on?

[Rulid]

Being vocal about disagreeing with the ending is providing feedback.

There is no realistic way that our demands will convey to Bioware's changes without Bioware's consent in the matter.

So, the OP's statement is actually moot.

We don't control Bioware: fact.
Bioware says they will listen to us: fact
We voice our opinion: fact

Hence, we hold the line

[Zen_Mojo]

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

I'm sorry BUT THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST STUPIDEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ON THIS DRAMA

WHAT CONTRACT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONTRACT IS?

I don't think *you* know what the reader-writer contract is.

There is no contract FULL STOP

Oh dear god...

Seriously, dear god.

A contract doesn't have to be a piece of paper. This is a metaphorical term for the idea behind it.

And yet people are still using it like it has some sort of legal binding which is complete BullS#!# Not to mention that the theory of such contract is extremly flawed since not everyone treats the content in the same way, need I remind you that there a still a large handful of people that did like the endings, the ones who are too afraid to come onto these forums because of the angry mob that has taken it over.

Ah, the old Silent Majority line....

[Jackal7713]

Rulid wrote...

Being vocal about disagreeing with the ending is providing feedback.

There is no realistic way that our demands will convey to Bioware's changes without Bioware's consent in the matter.

So, the OP's statement is actually moot.

We don't control Bioware: fact.
Bioware says they will listen to us: fact
We voice our opinion: fact

Hence, we hold the line

Agreed!

[Dreogan]

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

I'm sorry BUT THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST STUPIDEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ON THIS DRAMA

WHAT CONTRACT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONTRACT IS?

I don't think *you* know what the reader-writer contract is.

There is no contract FULL STOP

Oh dear god...

Seriously, dear god.

A contract doesn't have to be a piece of paper. This is a metaphorical term for the idea behind it.

And yet people are still using it like it has some sort of legal binding which is complete BullS#!# Not to mention that the theory of such contract is extremly flawed since not everyone treats the content in the same way, need I remind you that there a still a large handful of people that did like the endings, the ones who are too afraid to come onto these forums because of the angry mob that has taken it over.

The very fact that a good portion of Bioware's audience lost their suspension of disbelief is proof enough that Bioware should've followed the rules. They aren't a great artist that can get away with breaking the contract to make a "point."

And yes, there is a contract whether or not Bioware wants there to be. It exists for all fiction. For Mass Effect to be "valid" fiction for the masses, it cannot break the suspension of disbelief. The writer-reader contract is a simple way of stating the author cannot break the suspension of disbelief of his audience without the audience rejecting the fiction.

Of course, if you break the suspension of disbelief, fiction ceases to exist. A fictive world doesn't exist on a disc or on paper, it exists in the fictive dream: in the audience's mind.

Modifié par Dreogan, 24 mars 2012 - 01:50 .

[chris fenton]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

'k, bye!

[Unit-Alpha]

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dav3VsTh3World wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

I'm sorry BUT THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST STUPIDEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ON THIS DRAMA

WHAT CONTRACT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONTRACT IS?

I don't think *you* know what the reader-writer contract is.

There is no contract FULL STOP

Oh dear god...

Seriously, dear god.

A contract doesn't have to be a piece of paper. This is a metaphorical term for the idea behind it.

And yet people are still using it like it has some sort of legal binding which is complete BullS#!# Not to mention that the theory of such contract is extremly flawed since not everyone treats the content in the same way, need I remind you that there a still a large handful of people that did like the endings, the ones who are too afraid to come onto these forums because of the angry mob that has taken it over.

Oh god.

No, we have not. And if you think we are, you are wrong. We all know it's unwritten, something you yourself didn't know.

Also, "a large handful." Analogous to jumbo shrimp.

FULL STOP!

[Surprise Guest]

ashdrake1 wrote...

Surprise Guest wrote...

If Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings had flawed, contradictory endings?

The Publishers would not have released them until they were changed.

If a movie has a flawed, contradictory ending?

It would generally not make it past the screenplay stage. Otherwise recieve poor sales and poor reviews.

Mass Effect's ending was somehow avoided all of this, so the trilogy's legacy will remain as "That Science Fiction series with the Poor/Controversial (for the wrong reasons) endings".

It derserves to be remembered as one of the best science fiction franchises of all time, so while the damage has already been done I really hope bioware does their best to fix it.

While gaming press and companies seem keen to discuss the notion of games being art etc. I don't think we've ever denied that Mass Effect is art. It is. But art is something transformable, art is a commodity, and art like Mass Effect deserves to be remembered for the right reasons. Not the agenda of publishers and press.

Harry potter is flawed.  They have a time spinner.  There is no reason any of the good guys had to die.  It is a huge plot hole put there to tell a compelling story.

The time spinners were destroyed after the third book so had little impact on the series ending. Harry Potter also has magic so doesn't have the same expectations of logic and versimilitude. But I hope you get what what I mean anyway, that generally publishers will ensure literature doesn't have the same response as Mass Effect 3 did.

Modifié par Surprise Guest, 24 mars 2012 - 01:51 .