A contract is just a legally binding promise, Bioware made a promise so even if the promise isn't legally binding I can see where people are coming from.
My view on BioWare, the demand for a new ending and the Retake movement.
Débuté par
Guest_Luc0s_*
, mars 23 2012 11:46
-
Ce sujet est fermé
- Show only BioWare posts
Retour en haut
#552
Guest_Opsrbest_*
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:51
Guest_Opsrbest_*
Guest_Opsrbest_*
-
- Guests
Learn your legal implication.Marque De Leon wrote...
Opsrbest wrote...
-------------------------------------------------------
Actually claiming to do the following:
- Not purchase another Bioware product.
- Cancel a SWTOR subscrip.
- Return your ME3 copy.
- Violate forum TOS and be a prat on the forums by attacking Bioware, Bioware employees, etc.
Those above have all been stated factual evidentary statements made by the people who, if they don't get what they want, will respond in that manner. That is in fact forcing. It is in fact called coercion.
Are you insane? Aside from the last one all of the things you listed are RIGHTS THAT CONSUMERS HAVE! That's not forcing! That's not coercion! That's exercising your rights as a consumer!
In the laws governing wills, coercion is present when a testator is forced by another to make provisions in his or her will that he or she otherwise would not make if permitted to act according to free choice. It is an element of both duress and Undue Influence, two ways in which a testator is deprived of his or her free choice in making the will. If coercion is established in a proceeding to admit a will to probate, the document will be denied probate, thereby becoming void; and the property of the decedent will be distributed pursuant to the laws of Descent and Distribution.
I never actually ment to hit submit so adendum for fixing ~ As a consumer you have the right to refuse payment on any product you deem that does not meet the requirements or expectancy set by the manufacter or creator. As
a consumer you do not have the rights to legally use, in a proclimation of diservice or distrust or by any means to which you as the consumer feel the product recieved from the manufacturer does not meet expectations, to claim or invalidate any product under the duress or assertion that fiscal damage or harm may come to the representative of
or manufacter of any product. Once that statment is made by a consumer in a notorized fashion all rights of the consumer and product accountability end. The manufacter or creator of a product is then legally eligable to pursue means of restitution or recant against the complaintent once the consumer has gone beyond the means of acceptable consumer rights protection.
So to make the satement *(first paragrpah) of Wills IE:Artistic Intent it is derived to wholly be indivisable from the consumer. Should a product or service provided be less then expectancy or derived intention based on statement where the Testator(Bioware) manufacter creates an unideal procession or finds that it ends in a means unsatisfactiorily to the consumer the artist IE:Wills is protected against all means of injunction or duress from the
consumer. Any action taken to create discontent or slander towards the wills/Testator IE:Artistic Intent/Bioware is in breach of ...... a whole list of things that i'm not referencing ........ and commits the consumer to provision requirements represented in factual standing that can without intent or perception show that the Wills/Testator has failed to hold standing with the product or service no recanting shall be neccessary by the wills/testator. Any duress expressed from the consumer is wholly implied blah blah, basically the way it breaks down is this: A
piece of artwork can not be changed under any influence by the consumerwhere the statement made is based out of intent propositional or factual where the harm may be unintentional but still occuring in fiscal harm. All customer actions made can not be used against the Will/Testator in accordiance with consumer desires or applications of a
product or wills.
----------
There. Fixed the friggin post.
Modifié par Opsrbest, 24 mars 2012 - 01:53 .
#553
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:51
aliengmr1
-
- Members
- 737 messages
Rulid wrote...
Being vocal about disagreeing with the ending is providing feedback.
There is no realistic way that our demands will convey to Bioware's changes without Bioware's consent in the matter.
So, the OP's statement is actually moot.
We don't control Bioware: fact.
Bioware says they will listen to us: fact
We voice our opinion: fact
Hence, we hold the line
^ this guy
People think there is some space magic (had to) thats forcing Bioware to do anyhting. There isn't.
#554
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:52
Giantdeathrobot
-
- Members
- 2 945 messages
Chris Avellone (who wrote in Fallout, Planescape:Torment, Neverwinter Nights 2, and New Vegas, among others) is more or less the closest the games industry has to a respectable writer. If he considers it fine, I will tend to listen to him over a level designer (no offense intended, and no this not an argument of authority but of experience).
Not only that, but Mass Effect being a choice-based game mean that, while the cutscenes themselves are non-interactice sans interrupts, the road one takes to egt to said cutscenes is not. You don't get the same cutscenes at all if you support the Geth or the Quarians. The ending to this story arc is entirely player-decided. The player-developper contribution is completely intact, it's simply made beforehand instead of right on the fly.
Not only that, but Mass Effect being a choice-based game mean that, while the cutscenes themselves are non-interactice sans interrupts, the road one takes to egt to said cutscenes is not. You don't get the same cutscenes at all if you support the Geth or the Quarians. The ending to this story arc is entirely player-decided. The player-developper contribution is completely intact, it's simply made beforehand instead of right on the fly.
#555
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:53
Unit-Alpha
-
- Members
- 4 015 messages
Giantdeathrobot wrote...
Chris Avellone (who wrote in Fallout, Planescape:Torment, Neverwinter Nights 2, and New Vegas, among others) is more or less the closest the games industry has to a respectable writer. If he considers it fine, I will tend to listen to him over a level designer (no offense intended, and no this not an argument of authority but of experience).
Not only that, but Mass Effect being a choice-based game mean that, while the cutscenes themselves are non-interactice sans interrupts, the road one takes to egt to said cutscenes is not. You don't get the same cutscenes at all if you support the Geth or the Quarians. The ending to this story arc is entirely player-decided. The player-developper contribution is completely intact, it's simply made beforehand instead of right on the fly.
Second guy whose made this statement.
Please think for yourself.
#556
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:53
Dav3VsTh3World
-
- Members
- 567 messages
Dreogan wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Reptilian Rob wrote...
That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.
I'm sorry BUT THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST STUPIDEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ON THIS DRAMA
WHAT CONTRACT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONTRACT IS?
I don't think *you* know what the reader-writer contract is.
There is no contract FULL STOP
Oh dear god...
Seriously, dear god.
A contract doesn't have to be a piece of paper. This is a metaphorical term for the idea behind it.
And yet people are still using it like it has some sort of legal binding which is complete BullS#!# Not to mention that the theory of such contract is extremly flawed since not everyone treats the content in the same way, need I remind you that there a still a large handful of people that did like the endings, the ones who are too afraid to come onto these forums because of the angry mob that has taken it over.
The very fact that a good portion of Bioware's audience lost their suspension of disbelief is proof enough that Bioware should've followed the rules. They aren't a great artist that can get away with breaking the contract to make a "point."
I'm saying this right now to use terms like "breaking the contract" when there is no contract to speak of other than a metophorical theory and hold NO LEGAL OBLIGATION and is only implimented by those who want the story to work the way they want it to.
#557
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:54
John1musPr1me
-
- Members
- 6 messages
Pottumuusi wrote...
Hasn't this been covered before?
They have the right to make any sort of ending they want.
I have a right to think that their ending is terrible and say that it would be better if they did X.
They have the right to change or not change the endings if they want to. They just have to decide if they like their "artistic integrity" or whatever better than they like my money.
+1 to this
#558
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:54
ashdrake1
-
- Members
- 152 messages
wikkedjester wrote...
What page is it on?ashdrake1 wrote...
wikkedjester wrote...
If you believe that then you have missed the point of games becoming art, games are not art because they can do the exact same thing film, music, and literature can do, its art because of the one thing it can do that no other from can. Adapt, adapt to the fan base, adapt to the will of said fan base, it is the interaction, and the maker/player relationship that dictated this from of art.ashdrake1 wrote...
withneelandi wrote...
I don't necessesarily think they should change the ending to mass effect 3. I don't think it was a good ending, but I am uncomfortable with the idea of a writer being presured by the fanbase to change something they have written after the fact.
There are a few reasons I don't think this argument holds up with mass effect 3...
The idea of "authorship" is far more complicated in a game like mass effect than in novel or film in the sense that it asks the player to take part and make choices on how the narrative will progress, the problem with mass effect 3's ending is not that it is bleak, or even that it is open ended, but that it seems to render all the choices the game asked the player to make meaningless. For me looking at the game as a narrative, it sets up a sort of 2 way narative with the player then chooses to ignore that convention at the narratives conclusion.
The idea of amending a text after the fact is not a new one, the idea of the directors cut is long established in "proper" art like movies. Especially where technology or time constraints have curtailed what the director could do. I strongly suspect the ending we got in mass effect 3 was less the creative teams vision and more a compromise of time or tecnology. It would be very hard for the team to state that in public but I that is the impression I get from playing the game. The last section felt rushed and disjointed from the rest of the story.
Finally, I think video games can be "art". I'm not sure mass effect 3 is. One of the things that makes art, art is that the primary motivation is "art for arts sake", i.e not to make profit. I find it hard to let a writer fall back on "artistic integrity" when a game ends with a prompt to buy future DLC.
All that said I am still torn on the idea of an amended ending. I think the end was terrible, but I think it would set a horrible example and would frankly lead to a campaign like this any time a game ends in a well thought out, but perhaps leftfield or unexpected way.
Basically, the end is terrible and I don't think we should defend it on the basis of artistic integrity but while chaning this ending seems reasonable it would set a terrible precident and lead to an internet campain to change the end of EVERY major video game franchise that dared take an unexpected approach. It would have a chilling effect on creativity in viedo game in the long term.
A developer will be wary of sparking such a campaign, and getting bad publicity or paying out the costs of developing new content and so won't take any risks when making games. That is far worse for gamers than this ending being rubbish.
So by that logic you are saying many great film makers do not want to make a profit on their films. That is ludicrous. Artist want to keep being able to make art. They very much would like to turn a profit to enable this.
Also harry potter is dumb. Could have used the time spinner to save just about everyone. I don't demand that be changed. I hate all of the star wars prequels. I hate the additions to star wars (btw is exactly what people are asking for.) I was originally sold a product where Han shot first. I was lied to by the original film. I have yet to hear of one FTC complaint for Lucas to fix his endings. I don't want to shoot the elusive man and hear him scream Nooooo!
And will ether be the reason for its success or failure.
As for your film argument, your right no one if forcing Bioware to change the ending. If they so believed they were right they would stand buy it, but if they change it, its not because a “lack of artistic integrity” it because the integrity never existed, and they want fans to keep buying their products.
They can look at this from the view of an artist or a business. What do you think will win?
It is because of buisness that doing this is such a bad idea. I dont' want to get reported as a troll for copy pasting my response to his response. But I made my views on that there. please read that and respond to it. I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
Page 18.
#559
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:55
Unit-Alpha
-
- Members
- 4 015 messages
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
I'm saying this right now to use terms like "breaking the contract" when there is no contract to speak of other than a metophorical theory and hold NO LEGAL OBLIGATION and is only implimented by those who want the story to work the way they want it to.
I'm guessing someone here didn't enjoy don't classic literature in school.
It's symbolic. Metaphorical. An analogy. Period.
Nobody but yourself thinks (or in your case, thought) it was an actual written contract.
#560
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:55
Dav3VsTh3World
-
- Members
- 567 messages
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Reptilian Rob wrote...
That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.
I'm sorry BUT THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST STUPIDEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ON THIS DRAMA
WHAT CONTRACT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONTRACT IS?
I don't think *you* know what the reader-writer contract is.
There is no contract FULL STOP
Oh dear god...
Seriously, dear god.
A contract doesn't have to be a piece of paper. This is a metaphorical term for the idea behind it.
And yet people are still using it like it has some sort of legal binding which is complete BullS#!# Not to mention that the theory of such contract is extremly flawed since not everyone treats the content in the same way, need I remind you that there a still a large handful of people that did like the endings, the ones who are too afraid to come onto these forums because of the angry mob that has taken it over.
Oh god.
No, we have not. And if you think we are, you are wrong. We all know it's unwritten, something you yourself didn't know.
Also, "a large handful." Analogous to jumbo shrimp.
FULL STOP!
I'm sorry but yes you guys have
http://www.kotaku.co...e-games-ending/
This also doesn't help that a previous poster used the term "breaking the contract"
#561
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:56
Dreogan
-
- Members
- 1 415 messages
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Dreogan wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Reptilian Rob wrote...
That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.
I'm sorry BUT THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST STUPIDEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ON THIS DRAMA
WHAT CONTRACT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONTRACT IS?
I don't think *you* know what the reader-writer contract is.
There is no contract FULL STOP
Oh dear god...
Seriously, dear god.
A contract doesn't have to be a piece of paper. This is a metaphorical term for the idea behind it.
And yet people are still using it like it has some sort of legal binding which is complete BullS#!# Not to mention that the theory of such contract is extremly flawed since not everyone treats the content in the same way, need I remind you that there a still a large handful of people that did like the endings, the ones who are too afraid to come onto these forums because of the angry mob that has taken it over.
The very fact that a good portion of Bioware's audience lost their suspension of disbelief is proof enough that Bioware should've followed the rules. They aren't a great artist that can get away with breaking the contract to make a "point."
I'm saying this right now to use terms like "breaking the contract" when there is no contract to speak of other than a metophorical theory and hold NO LEGAL OBLIGATION and is only implimented by those who want the story to work the way they want it to.
Then in that case, I'll change the term the world uses to "writer-reader compact" (just for you) to make it seem less legal. And if you are seriously negating the importance of the suspension of disbelief, you seriously have no understanding of storytelling.
Modifié par Dreogan, 24 mars 2012 - 01:59 .
#562
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:56
Cadiwen
-
- Members
- 71 messages
John1musPr1me wrote...
Pottumuusi wrote...
Hasn't this been covered before?
They have the right to make any sort of ending they want.
I have a right to think that their ending is terrible and say that it would be better if they did X.
They have the right to change or not change the endings if they want to. They just have to decide if they like their "artistic integrity" or whatever better than they like my money.
+1 to this
+2. Y'all are reading my mind, here.
(maybe it's Space Magic?
)
#563
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:56
Blindspy
-
- Members
- 133 messages
Am I the only one that's pretty tired of hearing people trying to define what art is or is not? You can't say that "cutscenes are art and interactive media is not art", and then tell people that they're wrong if they disagree. Just because you (and a large chunk of other people on these forums) seem to have your own special definitions of what constitutes art, doesn't mean that it's correct.
Modifié par Blindspy, 24 mars 2012 - 01:57 .
#564
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:56
Jackal7713
-
- Members
- 1 661 messages
Read the definition people.
A verbal contract is any contract which is expressed in words (written or spoken). ... An implied contract can be either implied in fact or implied in law.
Does it apply here maybe maybe not. But don't act like that aren't found in the legal system.
A verbal contract is any contract which is expressed in words (written or spoken). ... An implied contract can be either implied in fact or implied in law.
Does it apply here maybe maybe not. But don't act like that aren't found in the legal system.
Modifié par Jackal7713, 24 mars 2012 - 01:57 .
#565
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:57
Unit-Alpha
-
- Members
- 4 015 messages
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
I'm sorry but yes you guys have
http://www.kotaku.co...e-games-ending/
This also doesn't help that a previous poster used the term "breaking the contract"
Lord, read the damn articles you link.
This was about false advertising, something the FTC deals with, not some metaphorical reader-writer contract.
Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 01:57 .
#566
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:58
MHBILLS_Endurell
-
- Members
- 17 messages
For the love of all that's holy people stop feeding the trolls!
#567
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:58
ZodiEmish
-
- Members
- 861 messages
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Dav3VsTh3World wrote...
Reptilian Rob wrote...
That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.
I'm sorry BUT THAT HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST STUPIDEST COMMENT I'VE SEEN ON THIS DRAMA
WHAT CONTRACT? DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHAT A CONTRACT IS?
I don't think *you* know what the reader-writer contract is.
There is no contract FULL STOP
Oh dear god...
Seriously, dear god.
A contract doesn't have to be a piece of paper. This is a metaphorical term for the idea behind it.
And yet people are still using it like it has some sort of legal binding which is complete BullS#!# Not to mention that the theory of such contract is extremly flawed since not everyone treats the content in the same way, need I remind you that there a still a large handful of people that did like the endings, the ones who are too afraid to come onto these forums because of the angry mob that has taken it over.
Oh god.
No, we have not. And if you think we are, you are wrong. We all know it's unwritten, something you yourself didn't know.
Also, "a large handful." Analogous to jumbo shrimp.
FULL STOP!
I'm sorry but yes you guys have
http://www.kotaku.co...e-games-ending/
This also doesn't help that a previous poster used the term "breaking the contract"
You like kotaku should get your facts straight... That was one person who posted a thread here on how to contact the feds, about three other people agreeing with him, and a TON of retake Mass Effect 3 memebers disagreeing saying that he was going to bring negitive press and was doing the wrong thing.
The thread is still here on the BSN. just search for it, and please fact check first.
#568
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:58
Ziggeh
-
- Members
- 4 360 messages
Guys, this is really simple.
Demanding? Yes, that's wrong. Asking, no, that's not.
Demanding? Yes, that's wrong. Asking, no, that's not.
#569
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:59
Cadiwen
-
- Members
- 71 messages
MHBILLS_Endurell wrote...
For the love of all that's holy people stop feeding the trolls!
+100,000,000.
Thank you.
#570
Guest_All Dead_*
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 01:59
Guest_All Dead_*
Guest_All Dead_*
-
- Guests
Chris Avellone is really cool.
#571
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:00
Unit-Alpha
-
- Members
- 4 015 messages
Ziggeh wrote...
Guys, this is really simple.
Demanding? Yes, that's wrong. Asking, no, that's not.
They are just words. Intent is the same.
#572
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:01
Grasich
-
- Members
- 1 671 messages
MHBILLS_Endurell wrote...
For the love of all that's holy people stop feeding the trolls!
You seem to have forgotten that this is the BSN. Posting is synonymous with feeding trolls.
#573
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:01
aliengmr1
-
- Members
- 737 messages
Ziggeh wrote...
Guys, this is really simple.
Demanding? Yes, that's wrong. Asking, no, that's not.
They are the same. Demanding won't grease the wheels, sure, but it doesn't force them anymore than asking.
#574
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:01
ZodiEmish
-
- Members
- 861 messages
Ziggeh wrote...
Guys, this is really simple.
Demanding? Yes, that's wrong. Asking, no, that's not.
Umm demanding is not wrong...
Here is what would be wrong. If we stormed Bioware and FORCED them to change the ending..
Demanding they change the ending is the same as Asking, but it is telling them that if they don't give in we will take our money some place else. That is the free market in it's most pure form. We have a right to demand a product to change or we take our money some place else, and they have a right to not give into our demands.
but no one is forcing them to change the ending.
#575
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:01
kalerab
-
- Members
- 166 messages
Look, I have to agree here. I HATE the ending. However demanding something doesnt seem right. Asking them to change it and especially asking them to engage in discussion with community is alright with me (there is a huge difference between asking something and demanding something), break finally the embargo, come here, explain why in the world did they think that this is the best ME franchise can offer, recieve feedback and respond to it etc. etc. That does not mean laying down and be silent, engage in discussion, create new threads, actively participate, find more promises about the game and especially the ending that BioWare developers promised and did not happen (right at the moment I can think of Casey Hudson, Ray Muzyka and mr. Gamble quotes). If they will decide to ignore all that and their one and only statement will be - this is how it is going to be than fine, it is their right. However for myself I can say I am done with BioWare products. That is my right.
