1311 réponses à ce sujet

[RDSFirebane]

Ziggeh wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Assuming you paid for their product, YES YOU ARE.

So if I don't like the flavour of Heinz Tomato Soup, I can ask them to change it, because having engaged their service by purchasing a can from my local Tescos, I have a two way relationship with the company and a say in the product?

um Heinz Tomato Soup never told me that they jointly made their soup with me but the answer is yes the can had a call number on it for your opnion also theres a website for it

[Jackal7713]

Ziggeh wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...
I thought Mass Effect was not a consumer good, but art?

You guys need to keep track of your arguments.

As one of the pro-enders used to say: checkmate.

"You guys", nice straw man you have there.

The straw man is your can of soup for $.89 and compairing it to $60 or $80 dollars.

Modifié par Jackal7713, 24 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[wikkedjester]

ashdrake1 wrote...

withneelandi wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

withneelandi wrote...

I don't necessesarily think they should change the ending to mass effect 3. I don't think it was a good ending, but I am uncomfortable with the idea of a writer being presured by the fanbase to change something they have written after the fact.

There are a few reasons I don't think this argument holds up with mass effect 3...

The idea of "authorship" is far more complicated in a game like mass effect than in novel or film in the sense that it asks the player to take part and make choices on how the narrative will progress, the problem with mass effect 3's ending is not that it is bleak, or even that it is open ended, but that it seems to render all the choices the game asked the player to make meaningless. For me looking at the game as a narrative, it sets up a sort of 2 way narative with the player then chooses to ignore that convention at the narratives conclusion.

The idea of amending a text after the fact is not a new one, the idea of the directors cut is long established in "proper" art like movies. Especially where technology or time constraints have curtailed what the director could do. I strongly suspect the ending we got in mass effect 3 was less the creative teams vision and more a compromise of time or tecnology. It would be very hard for the team to state that in public but I that is the impression I get from playing the game. The last section felt rushed and disjointed from the rest of the story.

Finally, I think video games can be "art". I'm not sure mass effect 3 is. One of the things that makes art, art is that the primary motivation is "art for arts sake", i.e not to make profit. I find it hard to let a writer fall back on "artistic integrity" when a game ends with a prompt to buy future DLC.

All that said I am still torn on the idea of an amended ending. I think the end was terrible, but I think it would set a horrible example and would frankly lead to a campaign like this any time a game ends in a well thought out, but perhaps leftfield or unexpected way.

Basically, the end is terrible and I don't think we should defend it on the basis of artistic integrity but while chaning this ending seems reasonable it would set a terrible precident and lead to an internet campain to change the end of EVERY major video game franchise that dared take an unexpected approach. It would have a chilling effect on creativity in viedo game in the long term.

A developer will be wary of sparking such a campaign, and getting bad publicity or paying out the costs of developing new content and so won't take any risks when making games. That is far worse for gamers than this ending being rubbish.

So by that logic you are saying many great film makers do not want to make a profit on their films.  That is ludicrous.  Artist want to keep being able to make art.  They very much would like to turn a profit to enable this. 

Also harry potter is dumb.  Could have used the time spinner to save just about everyone.  I don't demand that be changed.  I hate all of the star wars prequels.  I hate the additions to star wars (btw is exactly what people are asking for.)  I was originally sold a product where Han shot first.  I was lied to by the original film.  I have yet to hear of one FTC complaint for Lucas to fix his endings.  I don't want to shoot the elusive man and hear him scream Nooooo!

I didn't say something that looks to turn a profit isn't art, I was talking about the primary motivation. The point I'm making is that I find it difficult to buy the wounded artist argument from a game with such a strong commercial element. By that I mean the existence of enhanced collectors editions, day one DLC, dlc prompts at the end of a game.

Put simply when the narrative ends with a message about future DLC it becomes hard to argue that this is art for arts sake and defend the artistic integrity of the work.

I honestly think Me3 was concieved as product first art second, not the other way round.

I don't agree with this.  It is a diffrence of opinion.  It also is a precedence to make art less important in games.  Generic story games sell by the truckload.  Look at the modern war series, or even Halo.  Why take the effort to make a compelling story when mass shooter xiii sells just as well or better. 

You honestly don't think the story is important to the company?  There is probably a larger audience for a less intelligent story with the same mechanics.  Why do you think they have the skip RP option.  It's to try and draw in those crowds. 

People start demanding that a company spend money to "fix" a story makes a company take less chances.  Most people like simple stories more.  Last year cars 2 made over a 100 million more than Hugo.  I can't imagine anyone could state cars 2 was a better movie, It just would make zero sense from my perspective, but there it is. 

I agree, but I don’t. it’s a slippery road.

It a  cluster **** of many positives and negatives, and only time can tell what will happen.

On one hand we have the art argument, and you know my views, but in short, with out “this” and many other struggles like ‘this‘, games can‘t be art, it will always set in the we think were art, with out any of the struggle that makes art. . . Art.

We also have the gamer taking back the game. With the mess Capcom is in over their last few games, Marval VS Capcom, UM.v.C, Street FighterXTekken, $30 of day one DLC for Resident Evil ORC. With online passes, and day one single player DLC, with being nickel and dimmed, This is the gamer taking back the game, if we wont let Mass Effect get away with not delivering at least on what was promised, other companies might take pause before doing this same thing.

On the other hand this opens for the possibility of safe games and, lack of innovation.    OR for DC Project Red to make fun of Bioware in a round about way when taking about how the Witcher 2 has 12 more endings than before. So. . . It could like everything go both ways.

[Unit-Alpha]

Ziggeh wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...
I thought Mass Effect was not a consumer good, but art?

You guys need to keep track of your arguments.

As one of the pro-enders used to say: checkmate.

"You guys", nice straw man you have there.

I thought so.

Wasn't intended as such, just a figure of speech.

How about you respond to my actual argument instead of deflecting?

[Ziggeh]

Grasich wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Assuming you paid for their product, YES YOU ARE.

So if I don't like the flavour of Heinz Tomato Soup, I can ask them to change it, because having engaged their service by purchasing a can from my local Tescos, I have a two way relationship with the company and a say in the product?

Of course you do. Companies need end consumer feedback in order to improve their product.

And they would of course change it based on my specific demands, because I'm a client and they are providing a soup based service rather than a product.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 24 mars 2012 - 02:28 .

[Unit-Alpha]

Dreogan wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Assuming you paid for their product, YES YOU ARE.

So if I don't like the flavour of Heinz Tomato Soup, I can ask them to change it, because having engaged their service by purchasing a can from my local Tescos, I have a two way relationship with the company and a say in the product?

I thought Mass Effect was not a consumer good, but art?

You guys need to keep track of your arguments.

Tomato soup is obviously art. Duh.

You are right!

[MetalCargo999]

Dreogan wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Assuming you paid for their product, YES YOU ARE.

So if I don't like the flavour of Heinz Tomato Soup, I can ask them to change it, because having engaged their service by purchasing a can from my local Tescos, I have a two way relationship with the company and a say in the product?

As a matter of fact, you can!  They likely won't listen though because you would be in the minority.  If a large group of people say they don't like the soup, then Heinz would actually change it!

It doesn't even have to be a majority! It just needs to be a big enough group of angry people to influence sales!

Very good point

[RDSFirebane]

Jackal7713 wrote...

The straw man is your can of soup for $2.89 and compairing it to $60 or $80 dollars.

cough 100 dollars some of us had to ship it.

[MrAtomica]

Thanks for your opinion, Luc0s. You're a regular around here, and you never came off as unreasonable. I don't agree with your stance, but it's your right to think it.

As to why I don't agree, there are plenty of other posts refuting the "Artistic integrity" and "entitlement" arguments. Video games are a highly collaborative process between fans and devs, and it isn't wrong for fans to get upset when their position is discounted.

I believe it was Mike Gamble that was quoted as saying "This is as much their [the fans'] story as ours." He's right. Many of us have been following and commenting on this story from the launch of the first title. We have certain expectations of what a satisfying conclusion would be, and we believe that these current endings do not meet those expectations. That sounds arrogant, but our ideas really aren't that far out there.

I'd suggest reading the suggestions thread for alternate ending ideas, and reading some other posts about our position. Retake is a big movement, and not everyone comes off as polite or well-informed. Though the same goes for our detractors.

Just wanted to chime in and let you know that some of us can respect your position. In return, I would ask that you respect ours. That's all anyone can ask, really.

[Unit-Alpha]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Assuming you paid for their product, YES YOU ARE.

So if I don't like the flavour of Heinz Tomato Soup, I can ask them to change it, because having engaged their service by purchasing a can from my local Tescos, I have a two way relationship with the company and a say in the product?

As a matter of fact, you can!  They likely won't listen though because you would be in the minority.  If a large group of people say they don't like the soup, then Heinz would actually change it!

It doesn't even have to be a majority! It just needs to be a big enough group of angry people to influence sales!

Very good point

Fine. Let's look at New Coke. Consumer good, backlash caused it to be changed.

Argument invalid.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 02:34 .

[Dreogan]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Assuming you paid for their product, YES YOU ARE.

So if I don't like the flavour of Heinz Tomato Soup, I can ask them to change it, because having engaged their service by purchasing a can from my local Tescos, I have a two way relationship with the company and a say in the product?

I thought Mass Effect was not a consumer good, but art?

You guys need to keep track of your arguments.

Tomato soup is obviously art. Duh.

You are right!

Oh my god, a different label!:

[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://media.nj.com/business_impact/photo/8633817-large.jpg&sa=X&ei=0TFtT9LwD4aTtwfagqyuBg&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNENd1unOxRdk1iMvToZiv0PLxFt0A[/img]

QUICK QUICK FOR THE LOVE OF BABY STARCHILD DON'T LET THE CHANGE STAND! ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!

Modifié par Dreogan, 24 mars 2012 - 02:32 .

[Redban103]

Grasich wrote...

This. There seems to be a trend of people wanting to be "true fans" and support a gaming company no matter what they do. All that leads to is bad games.

If the gaming industry is to thrive, it needs vocal(and moderately civil ) gamers that don't take ****, no matter how much they like the company.

They're lucky to have gamers that are so vocal, lets them know where their weak points are not to mention that they're being given a chance to improve.

The reason we don't hear about this AS MUCH from other "****ty" games is that most people just shrug when they finish, tell their friends it was crap, then stop buying products from that company all together. The fact that so many people don't want to see that happen here also shows how much more loved the series is.

[Jackal7713]

RDSFirebane wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

The straw man is your can of soup for $2.89 and compairing it to $60 or $80 dollars.

cough 100 dollars some of us had to ship it.

I paid  $100 for mine cause it was shipped. So I feel your pain. And I sure as hell am not going to enterain the comparison to a can of F***ing soup.

[Unit-Alpha]

Dreogan wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Assuming you paid for their product, YES YOU ARE.

So if I don't like the flavour of Heinz Tomato Soup, I can ask them to change it, because having engaged their service by purchasing a can from my local Tescos, I have a two way relationship with the company and a say in the product?

I thought Mass Effect was not a consumer good, but art?

You guys need to keep track of your arguments.

Tomato soup is obviously art. Duh.

You are right!

Oh my god, a different label!:

[img]http://www.google.com/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://media.nj.com/business_impact/photo/8633817-large.jpg&sa=X&ei=0TFtT9LwD4aTtwfagqyuBg&ved=0CAkQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNENd1unOxRdk1iMvToZiv0PLxFt0A[/img]

QUICK QUICK FOR THE LOVE OF BABY STARCHILD DON'T LET THE CHANGE STAND! ARTISTIC INTEGRITY!

OH JESUS! I'M PRO-OLD SOUP LABEL FROM NOW ON! STUPID CUSTOMERS WANTING TO MODERNIZE THE LABEL!

[Ziggeh]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...
I thought Mass Effect was not a consumer good, but art?

You guys need to keep track of your arguments.

As one of the pro-enders used to say: checkmate.

"You guys", nice straw man you have there.

I thought so.

Wasn't intended as such, just a figure of speech.

How about you respond to my actual argument instead of deflecting?

I'm sorry. I shall be clearer: That is not an point I have ever made. I am a person and not an amalgamation of other peoples arguments tied loosely together with the theme of being for or against something.

[MetalCargo999]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Assuming you paid for their product, YES YOU ARE.

So if I don't like the flavour of Heinz Tomato Soup, I can ask them to change it, because having engaged their service by purchasing a can from my local Tescos, I have a two way relationship with the company and a say in the product?

As a matter of fact, you can!  They likely won't listen though because you would be in the minority.  If a large group of people say they don't like the soup, then Heinz would actually change it!

It doesn't even have to be a majority! It just needs to be a big enough group of angry people to influence sales!

Very good point

I just realized you were making fun of me for my use of exclamation marks.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aiyie]

been saying what the op just realized for awhile.

i hate the ending, would like it changed... but in no way am i entitled to demand they do so.

as well crafted as the illusion of writing our own story was done in this series, its still not my story.  its their story, i can just experience it in different ways.

so in the end, they have every right to do what they want with it, regardless of my feelings.  change it or not, its up to them.  they just need to be prepared for the consequences of making a decision not to listen to the fanbase.

[Unit-Alpha]

Ziggeh wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...
I thought Mass Effect was not a consumer good, but art?

You guys need to keep track of your arguments.

As one of the pro-enders used to say: checkmate.

"You guys", nice straw man you have there.

I thought so.

Wasn't intended as such, just a figure of speech.

How about you respond to my actual argument instead of deflecting?

I'm sorry. I shall be clearer: That is not an point I have ever made. I am a person and not an amalgamation of other peoples arguments tied loosely together with the theme of being for or against something.

Still deflecting. Original argument, please?

Maybe just talk about your broken circular logic, at least.

[aliengmr1]

Jackal7713 wrote...

RDSFirebane wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

The straw man is your can of soup for $2.89 and compairing it to $60 or $80 dollars.

cough 100 dollars some of us had to ship it.

I paid  $100 for mine cause it was shipped. So I feel your pain. And I sure as hell am not going to enterain the comparison to a can of F***ing soup.

LOL

[Dreogan]

Jackal7713 wrote...

RDSFirebane wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

The straw man is your can of soup for $2.89 and compairing it to $60 or $80 dollars.

cough 100 dollars some of us had to ship it.

I paid  $100 for mine cause it was shipped. So I feel your pain. And I sure as hell am not going to enterain the comparison to a can of F***ing soup.

Of course, because reductio ad absurdum is just too angsty artistic logic to make much sense.

Modifié par Dreogan, 24 mars 2012 - 02:35 .

[TheGreenAlloy]

Ziggeh wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Assuming you paid for their product, YES YOU ARE.

So if I don't like the flavour of Heinz Tomato Soup, I can ask them to change it, because having engaged their service by purchasing a can from my local Tescos, I have a two way relationship with the company and a say in the product?

Of course. I'm not sure if anyone would feel so strongly for soup, but still...

[Ck213]

If 90% of your customers dislikes it, art integrity flies out the window and it becomes economic integrity.

The potential impact to their name and reputation will dictate if they change or not. As the game is now, I will not buy DLC to add to it. And I certainly don't have much faith in future product. That's how much I dislike how this series ended. They can keep the ending if they want. I just won't buy any fuure series until it's complete and seems worth buying.

I've already changed my spending habits when it comes to games because I've been burned before or bought something that I didn't think was worth the price. There are very few that I pre-order. There are some that I might wait a year or two to buy. Only AAA titles are bought right away. Mass Effect was one of those. It's a shame how it ended. In truth, when it comes to games, it's better to wait. They're cheaper, they've been patched, the modding communtiy has probably made them more enjoyable, and you have plenty of info to make a good decision on if they are worth buying.

The video game industry should consider themselves lucky. They are the one medium that can respond to their customers quickly and far reaching. Also the games "Art Integrity" is intact. The game has shipped and will alwasy be so. It's only customers that download the changes who will have a different game.

[Unit-Alpha]

aliengmr1 wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

RDSFirebane wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

The straw man is your can of soup for $2.89 and compairing it to $60 or $80 dollars.

cough 100 dollars some of us had to ship it.

I paid  $100 for mine cause it was shipped. So I feel your pain. And I sure as hell am not going to enterain the comparison to a can of F***ing soup.

LOL

Let me tell you, $100 Campbells is *fantastic.*

[Ziggeh]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Assuming you paid for their product, YES YOU ARE.

So if I don't like the flavour of Heinz Tomato Soup, I can ask them to change it, because having engaged their service by purchasing a can from my local Tescos, I have a two way relationship with the company and a say in the product?

I'm sorry but you are really reaching with this. Soup doesn't cost $60 or $80.  Can't compair the two.

That's wonderful.

How about a mattress? If I ask the mattress manufacturer to change his mattress making process based upon my specific requirements? Does the increase in value make my purchase a mattress based service?