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My view on BioWare, the demand for a new ending and the Retake movement.

Débuté par Guest_Luc0s_* , mars 23 2012 11:46

1311 réponses à ce sujet

#701
Grasich
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:50

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Cyph3rX wrote...

This thread again? What'd I miss?


Allow me to tl;dr for you:

Image IPB

#702
nyghtrunner
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:50

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pjotroos wrote...

Movie endings are being changed all the time. They screen it for test audience and if the reaction is negative, they try something else. There clearly was no impartial test audience for this one. We're the test audience. Our reaction is negative.


this

#703
Niemack Saarinen
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:51

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Sorry OP you completely lost base as soon as you sided with it being "art" as others have said, once it shipped with day one DLC as well with the intent to release future DLC it is no longer art it is a video game. if you can change a book you can change a video game. they blatantly lied to the entire fanbase about what was to be included which all those can be fact-checked on threads floating with direct quotes that they gave us to only be proven false with actual gameplay. So Goodbye, we "lost" you but someone else will take your place on the line.  which is happening DAILY as people continually are finishing the game and waking up from denile to realize they were ripped off.

Modifié par Niemack Saarinen, 24 mars 2012 - 02:52 .

#704
PHub88
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:51

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I agree. They are the ones making the game so its up to them what to do with it. Who the heck do we think we are paying their salary and being the sole reason they are making the product in the first place? We have no room to complain and if they want to tell lie and after to get us to buy their product so be it, freedom of speech duh.

For the record I also support Hitler.

EA you would get better feedback if you jsut did this. Release ME3 in 10 minute segments charging $15 a piece...you would cut development time and make more money...charge an extra $5 for online pass and make us renew it every month. Just think of the money you guys would be making. Plus each segment would be better because you could listen to the fan feedback and make it better...I know we have no right to suggest anything but just in case the fans had any good ideas you know?

Consumer rights? Accountability? You are alll just a bunch of whiney nerds stfu and go away.

#705
Cyph3rX
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:51

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Grasich wrote...

Cyph3rX wrote...

This thread again? What'd I miss?


Allow me to tl;dr for you:

Image IPB


Seems about right.

#706
Dreogan
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:51

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nyghtrunner wrote...

pjotroos wrote...

Movie endings are being changed all the time. They screen it for test audience and if the reaction is negative, they try something else. There clearly was no impartial test audience for this one. We're the test audience. Our reaction is catastrophically negative.


this


Fixed it for him.

#707
aliengmr1
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:52

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WarBaby2 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

I want to clarify, that I still absolutely HATE the ending of Mass Effect 3, but only now do I realize how silly it is that we demand that BioWare changes it. That does not mean that I think BioWare shouldn't change it. I think BioWare should make up their own mind and then THEY should decide what to do with the endings, NOT US.


You have a point there... *looks over to CDPR homepage*


And yet the games industry still lives  hmmmm;)

#708
Ziggeh
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:52

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malra wrote...

actually you do.  whether they change it is up to them but you'd be surprised at the things the big companies take into effect.  the company I work for takes customer suggestions all the time.  why do you think they have a number on the lables or websites with contact email listed.  companies cannot improve, making inroads into markets that they have never been able to capture before, without listening to the customer.

The key word there is "suggestions". I'm not saying that they shouldn't listen, indeed, I would really rather they did. What I'm saying is that they are under no obligation to do so. I am a customer buying a product, not a client engaging them in a service.

#709
Jackal7713
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:53

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Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting :o

Modifié par Jackal7713, 24 mars 2012 - 02:53 .

#710
Dreogan
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:54

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Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting :o


Artistic integrity is a crutch for the artist without integrity.

That needs a Keanu meme.

Modifié par Dreogan, 24 mars 2012 - 02:54 .

#711
Cyph3rX
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:54

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Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting


Personally, they lost the integrity portion when they blantantly ripped the endings from Deus Ex 1.

#712
Unit-Alpha
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:54

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Dreogan wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting :o


Artistic integrity is a crutch for the artist without integrity.


Deep.

#713
Shermos
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:54

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Luc0s wrote...
They are within their right to do whatever they want with the narrative in their games and we players have no say over that.


This is exactly what I've been arguing from the start. Good on you for changing your mind though :). This board needs more people capable of doing that.

Most of you guys seem to be missing the point when it comes to artistic integrity. Bioware can do whatever they want with THEIR game. It is their piece of art, and we as fans, have no right to demand it be changed for whatever reason. For one, it would pollute or even destroy the messages Bioware wish to convey in the game and it would set a very bad precedent.

Modifié par Shermos, 24 mars 2012 - 03:02 .

#714
Blind2Society
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:54

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Great read. Still holding the line.

#715
Grasich
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:55

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Dreogan wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting :o


Artistic integrity is a crutch for the artist without integrity.

That needs a Keanu meme.


That is a fantastic quote.

#716
Dreogan
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:55

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Grasich wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting :o


Artistic integrity is a crutch for the artist without integrity.

That needs a Keanu meme.


That is a fantastic quote.


You can quote it on my epitaph. Also, please cite me on Wikipedia.

#717
MetalCargo999
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:56

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting :o


Artistic integrity is a crutch for the artist without integrity.


Deep.


All this being said though, I don't think the writing staff at Bioware intentionally wanted to give us an ending we would hate.  They did have integrity when making the ending, and I think the fact that they are moving to resolve the issue shows that they continue to have integrity.

#718
Guest_Opsrbest_*
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:56

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withneelandi wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...

Marque De Leon wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...


-------------------------------------------------------
Actually claiming to do the following:

- Not purchase another Bioware product.
- Cancel a SWTOR subscrip.
- Return your ME3 copy.
- Violate forum TOS and be a prat on the forums by attacking Bioware, Bioware employees, etc.

Those above have all been stated factual evidentary statements made by the people who, if they don't get what they want, will respond in that manner. That is in fact forcing. It is in fact called coercion.


Are you insane? Aside from the last one all of the things you listed are RIGHTS THAT CONSUMERS HAVE! That's not forcing! That's not coercion! That's exercising your rights as a consumer!

Learn your legal implication.

In the laws governing wills, coercion is present when a testator is forced by another to make provisions in his or her will that he or she otherwise would not make if permitted to act according to free choice. It is an element of both duress and Undue Influence, two ways in which a testator is deprived of his or her free choice in making the will. If coercion is established in a proceeding to admit a will to probate, the document will be denied probate, thereby becoming void; and the property of the decedent will be distributed pursuant to the laws of Descent and Distribution.


I never actually ment to hit submit so adendum for fixing ~ As a consumer you have the right to refuse payment on any product you deem that does not meet the requirements or expectancy set by the manufacter or creator. As
a consumer you do not have the rights to legally use, in a proclimation of diservice or distrust or by any means to which you as the consumer feel the product recieved from the manufacturer does not meet expectations, to claim or invalidate any product under the duress or assertion that fiscal damage or harm may come to the representative of
or manufacter of any product. Once that statment is made by a consumer in a notorized fashion all rights of the consumer and product accountability end. The manufacter or creator of a product is then legally eligable to pursue means of restitution or recant against the complaintent once the consumer has gone beyond the means of acceptable consumer rights protection.

So to make the satement *(first paragrpah) of Wills IE:Artistic Intent it is derived to wholly be indivisable from the consumer. Should a product or service provided be less then expectancy or derived intention based on statement where the Testator(Bioware) manufacter creates an unideal procession or finds that it ends in a means unsatisfactiorily to the consumer the artist IE:Wills is protected against all means of injunction or duress from the
consumer. Any action taken to create discontent or slander towards the wills/Testator IE:Artistic Intent/Bioware is in breach of ...... a whole list of things that i'm not referencing ........ and commits the consumer to provision requirements represented in factual standing that can without intent or perception show that the Wills/Testator has failed to hold standing with the product or service  no recanting shall be neccessary by the wills/testator. Any duress expressed from the consumer is wholly implied blah blah, basically the way it breaks down is this: A
piece of artwork can not be changed under any influence by the consumerwhere the statement made is based out of intent propositional or factual where the harm may be unintentional but still occuring in fiscal harm. All customer actions made can not be used against the Will/Testator in accordiance with consumer desires or applications of a
product or wills.

----------
There. Fixed the friggin post.


I've got a law degree and that makes absolutely no sense to me.

What juristiction is that from, why are you throwing terminology from consumer law and the law of succession together? The laws regarding the creation of a will reffer to situations involving .... the creation of a will but I don't see the application here.

You may come from a jurisdiction that does thing very, very differently to the UK legal system, but seriously, cite cases, texts legal journals, i'll understand them. I'm genuinely curiuous, perhaps its just too late at night but your post makes no sense to me.

I want to understand....

Image IPB

I'll try to clarify as best I can. The portion of law of succession or the part that goes on about wills was basically the best way I know or at least knew how to represent what I was saying. Maybe I just paraphrased to many things.

But what I was trying to say was the Wills represents the Artistic Integrity of the game and Bioware as Testator. And that by people on the forums making claims of not purchasing products, yadda yadda is coercion to Bioware as it's implied duress placed on the company so they get what they want. And that consumer law doesn't extend into protecting consumers from difference of value towards the content provided based on expectation. I guess it's the online game play may very warning when you purchase an MMO, even though thats not a good example either. Thats the just of it. As for the case citations none exist that I know of or that I used specifically and the legal text is the 4th binder out of ..... alot of them.

But I don't get what Juristiction you are asking about. Most law is based of UK law so? Im going to answer with Provincial, Bob. Not that I think the binder I pulled that stuff from has anything to do with what you are asking for.

#719
Torrible
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:56

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Dreogan wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting :o


Artistic integrity is a crutch for the artist without integrity.

That needs a Keanu meme.


Sanity is just another kind of madness

Life is a often a form of death

The ordinary is extraordinary 

#720
Ziggeh
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:56

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

And they aren't under an obligation to change it here. The point of the pro-enders is that we have no right to demand a change. If I paid for a mattress and couldn't return it, I would have the right to demand a change be made.

Also, again with the broken circular logic.

Firstly: how is the logic circular? You might have to expand on that.

Secondly: I think you'll find that would depend on the specific legal position of the mattress purchase. There isn't some natural law covering consumer rights.

#721
Unit-Alpha
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:57

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MetalCargo999 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting :o


Artistic integrity is a crutch for the artist without integrity.


Deep.


All this being said though, I don't think the writing staff at Bioware intentionally wanted to give us an ending we would hate.  They did have integrity when making the ending, and I think the fact that they are moving to resolve the issue shows that they continue to have integrity.


Problem is, they aren't really going to resolve it at all, just deflect it using a few bits of clarification.

#722
Cyph3rX
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:57

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Shermos wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
They are within their right to do whatever they want with the narrative in their games and we players have no say over that.


This is exactly what I've been arguing from the start. Good on you for changing your mind though :).


Actually we do, my wallets closed to them atm, and they're a for profit company. I'm sure I'm not alone.

#723
Nyaore
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:57

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Dreogan wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting :o


Artistic integrity is a crutch for the artist without integrity.

Hilarious true, seeing as most of the artists I see using the term to describe why they refuse to improve or why they delivered a commission that didn't fit what they were asked for are usually the ones who can't take a constructive critique to save their lives. They also tend to be the ones with the largest number of white knights ready to stroke their egos.
Of course there is something to be said about staying true to yourself with your art, and I've seen some artists stay true to themselves without making complete asses out of themselves, but that tends to take a backseat when you're selling a product.

#724
SandTrout
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:58

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Let me ask you this: Are we in our right to demand a new ending for Lord of The Rings? Is it fair if we demand a new ending for Harry Potter?

Fans did demand a better ending for Harry Potter because the original had Harry dead. The ending got changed, and there was much rejoicing.

#725
Almostfaceman
Posté 24 mars 2012 - 02:58

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So, let's see. I turned in one of my copies of ME3 to go towards Skyrim. I put off Skyrim, 'cause I was going to be playing a butt-load of ME3.

Well, so much for that.

And, you know, the thing I notice about Skyrim, check that, about Bethesda, is that if you want to change anything about their game - they let you. They promote mod communties. They put out DLC (like for Fallout 3). In other words, they are totally cool with their fans and let them do whatever they want pretty much with their "art".

I think Bethesda is on to something, and this of course blows a hole through this art argument. Games are made to sell to people. If they make a Monopoly game, and it doesn't sell, then they change the game or make another game.

People who try and tell me that Bioware would be infringing upon something sacred - I just don't buy it. Will never buy it. You go ahead and make something and try to sell it and if it stinks and the market doesn't want it and they tell you to change it and you don't - watch how fast you go out of business.
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