1311 réponses à ce sujet

[Nyaore]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Nyaore wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Nyaore wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting

Artistic integrity is a crutch for the artist without integrity.

Hilarious true, seeing as most of the artists I see using the term to describe why they refuse to improve or why they delivered a commission that didn't fit what they were asked for are usually the ones who can't take a constructive critique to save their lives. They also tend to be the ones with the largest number of white knights ready to stroke their egos.
Of course there is something to be said about staying true to yourself with your art, and I've seen some artists stay true to themselves without making complete asses out of themselves, but that tends to take a backseat when you're selling a product.

See that is the problem. If you can't take constructive critique, then you have truely failed as an artist. I love hear feed back about my paintings or photographs. How else will I get better at my art if I only listened to those that like it?

Agreed, tenfold. I'm much the same with my own art. I want you to critique it, I LIVE for critiques. Tear it apart and throw it back in my face if you have to. Just the fact that you're taking the time to give me your opinion on how to improve is worth more than it's weight in gold. Yet so many artists and non-artists just don't seem to understand this. They're happy with staying in a rut, and see any attempts to tell people how to improve as a slight against the artist's character. 
It's sorry day when more people associate critiques with blind bashing than with how helpful they're actually meant to be. Of course that doesn't excuse blind bashing in and of itself, but when people sit down and calmly tell you what you're doing wrong I think that you at least owe it to yourself to take their advice seriously.

I would really like to see your art sometime. What media do like to use?

My art really isn't anything to write home about, but it's mostly digital media and stock photography. 

[Jackal7713]

Grasich wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

its the feeling this community has that the decision to change the ending belongs to them, the consumers, rather than the authors of the story, that has caused people to start slinging around that "entitlement" insult.

I don't think anyone thinks that decision is ours, if they do they are deluding themselves. As customers, however, we have the right to demand that we are given the product that we were told we would get. If BioWare refuses... *shrug*... they can say goodbye to a lot of business.

Well said.

[Ziggeh]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Again with the straw man. That's just bland deflection. So tell me what you think of the ending.

You're saying my argument contradicts statements I've not made. Now you're misusing the word deflection.

I thought the ending was deeply unsatisfying and made little to no sense.

[MetalCargo999]

ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

This does not mean I like the ending, but I love the stories bioware tells. After this, why would they risk trying to do something diffrent? - ashdrake1

I don't think the problem here is the risk they took. Again, there are actually errors in the ending that need to be fixed. Personally, I would have preffered that they would have worked on the dark energy ending, but I know that's not gonna happen. That being said, whatever the ending actually is needs to at least be logically coherant.

They took a tremendous risk.  They killed your Shepard and shook the galaxy like an etch a sketch.  Leaving the fate of the galaxy and the characters so many were attached to up to speculation required a huge set of quads.

It had plot holes, but so what.  Lot's of story's have plot hole, some of them flat out make no sense.  Some times things are ignored in favor of telling the story you want. That is my opinion on that matter.

However going for the bummer ending instead of the feel good movie of the year one is always risky.  Getting the ending "fixed" is going to come at a huge cost in terms of games that want to tell unique stories.  More so for ones owned by the equivalent wall-mart of gaming.

I don't think you can equate "risk" in art direction with "error".  Also, I agree that they took a risk, and I don't really mind tht they did either.  My argument is based on the errors of the ending.  By the way, I only think there are only two plot holes in the ending.  A lot of the problems that are actually in the ending are continuity errors, not plot holes. 

But finally, I'd like to add that when an artist has to hijack his work of art to get a point across instead of doing it through his work, then it is poor art.  This is one of my problems with the ending as well, and with a lot of art that sacrifices itself for the sake of the point the artist is trying to make.  But certain art lends itself quite well to that medium, so I guess I'm not trying to make a blanket statement.  What I am saying is that Mass Effect does not lend itself to that form of artistic expression until the very end of the story.  The justification for this?  Because it is the end.  I don't like that logic.  If feels arbitrary, or... what's the word... but I thnk you know what I mean.

[Aiyie]

[quote]
i won't argue that... but in a way you kinda just made my point for me.

Mass Effect and everything related to it is not our property.  We own the disc or whatever that we experience it through, but it's still Bioware's intellectual property.

So yea, in the end... they are the only ones who can change whatever they want.  We can ask and give them our reasons for asking... but the decision isn't ours... and acting like it is is where the "entitlement" insults come from.

[/quote]

Nobody has claimed the decision is ours. People like me just think we have a "right" to a better ending.

[/quote]

If your neighbor's house is painted a color you can't stand, you have the "right" to request he change it.  but you don't have the "right" to have it changed.

its a fine line, but... as much as we hate the ending, we don't have the right to a better ending.  We only have the right to ask for a better ending.

maybe nobody is claiming outright its our decision, but the way people are phrasing their arguments are making it look that way to everybody not directly involved in the Retake movement.... including the developers.

[Dreogan]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

This does not mean I like the ending, but I love the stories bioware tells. After this, why would they risk trying to do something diffrent? - ashdrake1

I don't think the problem here is the risk they took. Again, there are actually errors in the ending that need to be fixed. Personally, I would have preffered that they would have worked on the dark energy ending, but I know that's not gonna happen. That being said, whatever the ending actually is needs to at least be logically coherant.

They took a tremendous risk.  They killed your Shepard and shook the galaxy like an etch a sketch.  Leaving the fate of the galaxy and the characters so many were attached to up to speculation required a huge set of quads.

It had plot holes, but so what.  Lot's of story's have plot hole, some of them flat out make no sense.  Some times things are ignored in favor of telling the story you want. That is my opinion on that matter.

However going for the bummer ending instead of the feel good movie of the year one is always risky.  Getting the ending "fixed" is going to come at a huge cost in terms of games that want to tell unique stories.  More so for ones owned by the equivalent wall-mart of gaming.

I don't think you can equate "risk" in art direction with "error".  Also, I agree that they took a risk, and I don't really mind tht they did either.  My argument is based on the errors of the ending.  By the way, I only think there are only two plot holes in the ending.  A lot of the problems that are actually in the ending are continuity errors, not plot holes. 

But finally, I'd like to add that when an artist has to hijack his work of art to get a point across instead of doing it through his work, then it is poor art.  This is one of my problems with the ending as well, and with a lot of art that sacrifices itself for the sake of the point the artist is trying to make.  But certain art lends itself quite well to that medium, so I guess I'm not trying to make a blanket statement.  What I am saying is that Mass Effect does not lend itself to that form of artistic expression until the very end of the story.  The justification for this?  Because it is the end.  I don't like that logic.  If feels arbitrary, or... what's the word... but I thnk you know what I mean.

Forced. Which is poor storytelling. Which is bad (invalid, "wrong") art.

Modifié par Dreogan, 24 mars 2012 - 03:27 .

[Jackal7713]

Nyaore wrote...

My art really isn't anything to write home about, but it's mostly digital media and stock photography. 

I would still like to see it sometime.

Modifié par Jackal7713, 24 mars 2012 - 03:28 .

[Iconoclaste]

The funny thing about this "artistic integrity" meme is the variability of it depending of the context to which it will apply. If a character is poorly graphically designed to a point everyone can see it, it will be redesigned with no questioning, and I'm sure everyone can agree on this. Even "patches" can address this after initial release, in fact lots of things can be changed from the original, and nobody would argue about that . But now, when it comes to the "writing" part, "artistic integrity" is "untouchable".

Why?

Maybe some authors need to question their own ego. A visual artist is such an employee to a company making games that his "art" is but a mere product to be tailored to the customer's satisfaction, to the pixel level. But the "text" artists, no way are they going to be directed, either by the imperatives of the logic they created themselves, or by the "gamers"?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 24 mars 2012 - 03:29 .

[Torrible]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Is it just when I feel that there a subtle difference between 'deserving an ending' and 'being owed an ending'? If so, which is the default position of the movement?

Why do I have to ask like a simp for something they promised pre-launched? If they want my money again then add to the ending and give me a happy one. I'm not asking . I'm telling them as a consumer.

I think your forgeting who is paying who here.

No need to get after him, he was merely asking a question.

Sorry I should have wrote that better Torrible. Didn't mean to offened you and if I did my bad buddy.

Hey no worries. As said by someone, this is probably one of the better threads.

[Dethead123]

You know what I think we have a right to? Having lewd mandible promiscuous sexy time with Garrus' sister. I have yet to see a Turian female and the ending should end with me conquering that shiz.

Edi: "That was a joke."

Modifié par Dethead123, 24 mars 2012 - 03:30 .

[malra]

Ziggeh wrote...

malra wrote...

i never though they were, i don't think most f us are under the impression that we can legally force them to rewrite the game, i think we are standing up for ourselves however and saying "Hey your game sucked, you lied to us and took our money.  Make it right."  since their are so many of us, i think we have a pretty fair chance.  otherwise, i have no problem never giving them my money again. 

Indeed, and I entirely agree with you there. My point was simply that we don't have a client/service relationship with bioware. I'm not even sure that's what the post I was responding to was implying, but I felt the clarification important.

you would be correct in thinking that ther are differing dimensions in a service relationship that are not apparent or readily available in a consumer relationship based on manufacturing or prodcution. one of the difficulties with this medium is that once a game or other similar medium is opened there is little recourse to getting a full refund regardless of how flawed the product is.  i usually don't pre-order anything, especially software, just for this reason.  anyhow, the difficulties in obtaining a full refund are what prevented me from already returning my games, otherwise I would have returned it the day i discovered ending A, B, and C were all the same except for the blue, green, and red streamers.  now i find myself hanging on to it, just on the hope that Bioware will do the right thing even though all of my friends are encouraging me to take advantage of the Amazon 30 day grace period or whatever.

[Paparob]

Torrible I saw your response to my post but then you edited it. :sadface:

[Faunwea]

This thread is still open? Wow!

[ManiacShoteR]

Taleroth wrote...

If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?

If any part of the game fails, we have the right to ask for something better. It is then their right to say no. And our right to evaluate whether we want to buy future products.

well written 

[Unit-Alpha]

Dreogan wrote...

STRAW MAN!!!!

Sorry, I needed to use that argument. We don't. Period. We feel we are deserved a better ending.

Mmm, I feel ME3 deserves a better ending. I feel Bioware is obligated (by its commitment to ME3) to fix ME3's ending. I'd like a better ending, but I don't deserve one. If I don't get one I'll certainly take my business elsewhere (which is a demand, which Bioware can also ignore).

For me, it's a bit like a presidential mandate. We made ME a success, so we deserve to have our wishes carried out to some degree.

[Jackal7713]

Torrible wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Torrible wrote...

Is it just when I feel that there a subtle difference between 'deserving an ending' and 'being owed an ending'? If so, which is the default position of the movement?

Why do I have to ask like a simp for something they promised pre-launched? If they want my money again then add to the ending and give me a happy one. I'm not asking . I'm telling them as a consumer.

I think your forgeting who is paying who here.

No need to get after him, he was merely asking a question.

Sorry I should have wrote that better Torrible. Didn't mean to offened you and if I did my bad buddy.

Hey no worries. As said by someone, this is probably one of the better threads.

Thanks for being cool buddy. I agree this is one of the better threads on BSN.  At the end of the day we all are fans of ME. I hope that we can all remain as such.

Modifié par Jackal7713, 24 mars 2012 - 03:32 .

[Dethead123]

Faunwea wrote...

This thread is still open? Wow!

Mods are on holiday. Although technically the whole thread has just been a debate, not a lot of personal attacks or anything. Although stupidity has ran rampant.

[Dreogan]

Faunwea wrote...

This thread is still open? Wow!

It is, but we've pretty much reached consensus. Ending is bad, plot is bad, writing should feel bad. We're arguing over wording now.

[de3ex]

Assuming direct control?

[Grasich]

Dethead123 wrote...

You know what I think we have a right to? Having lewd mandible promiscuous sexy time with Garrus' sister. I have yet to see a Turian female and the ending should end with me conquering that shiz.

Edi: "That was a joke."

Bioware, you need to listen to this man. THIS is what we need!!! 

[malra]

Dethead123 wrote...

Faunwea wrote...

This thread is still open? Wow!

Mods are on holiday. Although technically the whole thread has just been a debate, not a lot of personal attacks or anything. Although stupidity has ran rampant.

yes but that seems to be readily available everywhere on the forums and this is still better than the love wars from back between me1 and me2.  :-) just saying

[Grasich]

de3ex wrote...

Assuming direct control?

www.youtube.com/watch

[Unit-Alpha]

Grasich wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

You know what I think we have a right to? Having lewd mandible promiscuous sexy time with Garrus' sister. I have yet to see a Turian female and the ending should end with me conquering that shiz.

Edi: "That was a joke."

Bioware, you need to listen to this man. THIS is what we need!!! 

That would be... entertaining. Though those plates... damn.

[Jackal7713]

Grasich wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

You know what I think we have a right to? Having lewd mandible promiscuous sexy time with Garrus' sister. I have yet to see a Turian female and the ending should end with me conquering that shiz.

Edi: "That was a joke."

Bioware, you need to listen to this man. THIS is what we need!!! 

If he gets that then I want little blue babies with Liara and one kid with Ash. 

The universe is big and needs many little Shepards running around!

Modifié par Jackal7713, 24 mars 2012 - 03:35 .

[Unit-Alpha]

malra wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

Faunwea wrote...

This thread is still open? Wow!

Mods are on holiday. Although technically the whole thread has just been a debate, not a lot of personal attacks or anything. Although stupidity has ran rampant.

yes but that seems to be readily available everywhere on the forums and this is still better than the love wars from back between me1 and me2.  :-) just saying

This has probably the most intelligent debate that I've seen in a while.

Not saying much, but whatever.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 03:35 .