1311 réponses à ce sujet

[Grasich]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

You know what I think we have a right to? Having lewd mandible promiscuous sexy time with Garrus' sister. I have yet to see a Turian female and the ending should end with me conquering that shiz.

Edi: "That was a joke."

Bioware, you need to listen to this man. THIS is what we need!!! 

That would be... entertaining. Though those plates... damn.

Ya... on second thought it sounds kind of painful.

[aliengmr1]

ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

This does not mean I like the ending, but I love the stories bioware tells. After this, why would they risk trying to do something diffrent? - ashdrake1

I don't think the problem here is the risk they took. Again, there are actually errors in the ending that need to be fixed. Personally, I would have preffered that they would have worked on the dark energy ending, but I know that's not gonna happen. That being said, whatever the ending actually is needs to at least be logically coherant.

They took a tremendous risk.  They killed your Shepard and shook the galaxy like an etch a sketch.  Leaving the fate of the galaxy and the characters so many were attached to up to speculation required a huge set of quads.

It had plot holes, but so what.  Lot's of story's have plot hole, some of them flat out make no sense.  Some times things are ignored in favor of telling the story you want. That is my opinion on that matter.

However going for the bummer ending instead of the feel good movie of the year one is always risky.  Getting the ending "fixed" is going to come at a huge cost in terms of games that want to tell unique stories.  More so for ones owned by the equivalent wall-mart of gaming.

But how? AAA titles don't allow for risks.

AAA titles cost so much to make that they are forced to appeal to the widest audience. Its not a place that promotes much creativity at all. Was it wise to create an ending to a very important franchise like ME knowing it would be polarizing? I don't think it was at all. Just because you can write a unique story doesn't mean people will buy it.

[Dethead123]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

You know what I think we have a right to? Having lewd mandible promiscuous sexy time with Garrus' sister. I have yet to see a Turian female and the ending should end with me conquering that shiz.

Edi: "That was a joke."

Bioware, you need to listen to this man. THIS is what we need!!! 

If he gets that then I want little blue babies with Liara and one kid with Ash. 

The universe is big and needs many little Shepards running around!

That's the beautiful thing about Mass Effect. We should be allowed to have BOTH. Here's to us the indiscriminating alien enthusiasts. (aka horndogs)

[MetalCargo999]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

malra wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

Faunwea wrote...

This thread is still open? Wow!

Mods are on holiday. Although technically the whole thread has just been a debate, not a lot of personal attacks or anything. Although stupidity has ran rampant.

yes but that seems to be readily available everywhere on the forums and this is still better than the love wars from back between me1 and me2.  :-) just saying

This has probably the most intelligent debate that I've seen in a while.

Not saying much, but whatever.

OUCH.  Yea thanks for that, appreciate it...

[mghjr6]

ManiacShoteR wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?

If any part of the game fails, we have the right to ask for something better. It is then their right to say no. And our right to evaluate whether we want to buy future products.

well written 

QFT.

[de3ex]

OP was indoctrinated. INDOCTRINATED!!!!!!!!!

[Unit-Alpha]

Luc0s wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

its the feeling this community has that the decision to change the ending belongs to them, the consumers, rather than the authors of the story, that has caused people to start slinging around that "entitlement" insult.

Indeed. Even I, as part of the community, started to feel this way. That's why I no longer support the Retake movement, nor do I want to be part of the same group as most of the folks who are posting in this thread. I'm still a Mass Effect fan and I still hate the endings, but I no longer wish to be associated with this group.


PS: I miss the good old days when we still had Paragon v.s Renegade debates. Does anyone miss those good old days too?

Yes, obviously. I just wish you hadn't outright attacked the ideas of the Retake movement, which are parallel to the ideas of unassociated groups hoping for new endings.

In the end, it hurts both those affliated with RME and those who are not.

[Unit-Alpha]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

malra wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

Faunwea wrote...

This thread is still open? Wow!

Mods are on holiday. Although technically the whole thread has just been a debate, not a lot of personal attacks or anything. Although stupidity has ran rampant.

yes but that seems to be readily available everywhere on the forums and this is still better than the love wars from back between me1 and me2.  :-) just saying

This has probably the most intelligent debate that I've seen in a while.

Not saying much, but whatever.

OUCH.  Yea thanks for that, appreciate it...

Haha, 'tis the truth.

[Dethead123]

Luc0s wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

its the feeling this community has that the decision to change the ending belongs to them, the consumers, rather than the authors of the story, that has caused people to start slinging around that "entitlement" insult.

Indeed. Even I, as part of the community, started to feel this way. That's why I no longer support the Retake movement, nor do I want to be part of the same group as most of the folks who are posting in this thread. I'm still a Mass Effect fan and I still hate the endings, but I no longer wish to be associated with this group.


PS: I miss the good old days when we still had Paragon v.s Renegade debates. Does anyone miss those good old days too?

Y'know what OP that's fine. You don't need to be part of a group. This whole taking sides thing is taking away from what we all really want anyways (well those of us who dislike the ending anyways) and that's a DLC changing/adding/or clarifying the endings. If you don't want to be part of retake that's fine. But it's also ignorant to lump all of us in as entitled children. I hope we all can come away from this with a new ending and all still buddies.

[Jackal7713]

Dethead123 wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

You know what I think we have a right to? Having lewd mandible promiscuous sexy time with Garrus' sister. I have yet to see a Turian female and the ending should end with me conquering that shiz.

Edi: "That was a joke."

Bioware, you need to listen to this man. THIS is what we need!!! 

If he gets that then I want little blue babies with Liara and one kid with Ash. 

The universe is big and needs many little Shepards running around!

That's the beautiful thing about Mass Effect. We should be allowed to have BOTH. Here's to us the indiscriminating alien enthusiasts. (aka horndogs)

Cheers!

[ashdrake1]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

This does not mean I like the ending, but I love the stories bioware tells. After this, why would they risk trying to do something diffrent? - ashdrake1

I don't think the problem here is the risk they took. Again, there are actually errors in the ending that need to be fixed. Personally, I would have preffered that they would have worked on the dark energy ending, but I know that's not gonna happen. That being said, whatever the ending actually is needs to at least be logically coherant.

They took a tremendous risk.  They killed your Shepard and shook the galaxy like an etch a sketch.  Leaving the fate of the galaxy and the characters so many were attached to up to speculation required a huge set of quads.

It had plot holes, but so what.  Lot's of story's have plot hole, some of them flat out make no sense.  Some times things are ignored in favor of telling the story you want. That is my opinion on that matter.

However going for the bummer ending instead of the feel good movie of the year one is always risky.  Getting the ending "fixed" is going to come at a huge cost in terms of games that want to tell unique stories.  More so for ones owned by the equivalent wall-mart of gaming.

I don't think you can equate "risk" in art direction with "error".  Also, I agree that they took a risk, and I don't really mind tht they did either.  My argument is based on the errors of the ending.  By the way, I only think there are only two plot holes in the ending.  A lot of the problems that are actually in the ending are continuity errors, not plot holes. 

But finally, I'd like to add that when an artist has to hijack his work of art to get a point across instead of doing it through his work, then it is poor art.  This is one of my problems with the ending as well, and with a lot of art that sacrifices itself for the sake of the point the artist is trying to make.  But certain art lends itself quite well to that medium, so I guess I'm not trying to make a blanket statement.  What I am saying is that Mass Effect does not lend itself to that form of artistic expression until the very end of the story.  The justification for this?  Because it is the end.  I don't like that logic.  If feels arbitrary, or... what's the word... but I thnk you know what I mean.

Eh, I can think of a few memorable stories that ignore facts for favor of story, but that is just personal perspective an agree to disagree sort of thing.  Most of the times I can fill them in with speculation.  

It would be wonferfull if people were just clamoring for correction of actual error.  The ending has a few.  This is not what people are unified in asking for.  They want to change the way the ending is told.  They want a completely different ending.  One that ignores trying to tell a unique story.

 I would bet money that bioware had a great concept for the next game in the universe and that the ending was a setup for the next chapter in this setting.  After what EA will make them do, I can't help but wonder how this will impact the original concept.  I image it will be a lot like a pregnant women smoking.  Satisfying right now, but dire long term effects.

[Aiyie]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

its the feeling this community has that the decision to change the ending belongs to them, the consumers, rather than the authors of the story, that has caused people to start slinging around that "entitlement" insult.

I don't think anyone thinks that decision is ours, if they do they are deluding themselves. As customers, however, we have the right to demand that we are given the product that we were told we would get. If BioWare refuses... *shrug*... they can say goodbye to a lot of business.

Well said.

Problem is the way Retake is viewed in the court of public opinion.  We want to continue our business with Bioware... but from the way our stance is being portrayed by some of our less eloquent supporters/members that's not the image we're portraying.

Instead of looking like a client waiting in the board room to negotiate a contract, we look like a thug holding a gun to someone's head yelling at them to give us their purse or else.

[Unit-Alpha]

Dethead123 wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

You know what I think we have a right to? Having lewd mandible promiscuous sexy time with Garrus' sister. I have yet to see a Turian female and the ending should end with me conquering that shiz.

Edi: "That was a joke."

Bioware, you need to listen to this man. THIS is what we need!!! 

If he gets that then I want little blue babies with Liara and one kid with Ash. 

The universe is big and needs many little Shepards running around!

That's the beautiful thing about Mass Effect. We should be allowed to have BOTH. Here's to us the indiscriminating alien enthusiasts. (aka horndogs)

As long as we sound classy, it's all good.

[Dreogan]

Luc0s wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

its the feeling this community has that the decision to change the ending belongs to them, the consumers, rather than the authors of the story, that has caused people to start slinging around that "entitlement" insult.

Indeed. Even I, as part of the community, started to feel this way. That's why I no longer support the Retake movement, nor do I want to be part of the same group as most of the folks who are posting in this thread. I'm still a Mass Effect fan and I still hate the endings, but I no longer wish to be associated with this group.


PS: I miss the good old days when we still had Paragon v.s Renegade debates. Does anyone miss those good old days too?

I actually agree with you, which is why I removed my banner. The thing that did it for me was people suggesting specific solutions to the devs to change the endings: worst of these are the Indoctrination-ites begging for their beliefs to be justified.

I don't like the endings, but I simply reject them on the grounds that they violate the writer-reader contract and break the suspension of disbelief. This is the same grounds I'd reject any other work of fiction.

Considering the ending invalid is one of the strongest insults I can throw at a storyteller. I don't need to try to "help" them fix it; to do otherwise would be to suggest Bioware hasn't shown me they know how to tell a story in the past.

Modifié par Dreogan, 24 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[Grasich]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

its the feeling this community has that the decision to change the ending belongs to them, the consumers, rather than the authors of the story, that has caused people to start slinging around that "entitlement" insult.

Indeed. Even I, as part of the community, started to feel this way. That's why I no longer support the Retake movement, nor do I want to be part of the same group as most of the folks who are posting in this thread. I'm still a Mass Effect fan and I still hate the endings, but I no longer wish to be associated with this group.


PS: I miss the good old days when we still had Paragon v.s Renegade debates. Does anyone miss those good old days too?

Yes, obviously. I just wish you hadn't outright attacked the ideas of the Retake movement, which are parallel to the ideas of unassociated groups hoping for new endings.

In the end, it hurts both those affliated with RME and those who are not.

This. There are always going to be some bad apples in a large group, especially one that anyone can join. The point is to see past them and see what the bulk of the group really stands for.

[Unit-Alpha]

Aiyie wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

its the feeling this community has that the decision to change the ending belongs to them, the consumers, rather than the authors of the story, that has caused people to start slinging around that "entitlement" insult.

I don't think anyone thinks that decision is ours, if they do they are deluding themselves. As customers, however, we have the right to demand that we are given the product that we were told we would get. If BioWare refuses... *shrug*... they can say goodbye to a lot of business.

Well said.

Problem is the way Retake is viewed in the court of public opinion.  We want to continue our business with Bioware... but from the way our stance is being portrayed by some of our less eloquent supporters/members that's not the image we're portraying.

Instead of looking like a client waiting in the board room to negotiate a contract, we look like a thug holding a gun to someone's head yelling at them to give us their purse or else.

We can't do anything about that, just as we can't do anything about the media bias that has occurred.

[MetalCargo999]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

malra wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

Faunwea wrote...

This thread is still open? Wow!

Mods are on holiday. Although technically the whole thread has just been a debate, not a lot of personal attacks or anything. Although stupidity has ran rampant.

yes but that seems to be readily available everywhere on the forums and this is still better than the love wars from back between me1 and me2.  :-) just saying

This has probably the most intelligent debate that I've seen in a while.

Not saying much, but whatever.

OUCH.  Yea thanks for that, appreciate it...

Haha, 'tis the truth.

Alrighty then.  I challenge you to a debate-off.  Pick a topic.

[DrowVampyre]

They have the right to leave the ending as it is. I've never argued they don't have that right. They have the right to change it, too, either because they want to or in response to us.

But I have the right to not buy anything from them again because the ending was that atrocious, too. Given that, and that my sentiment is shared by a large portion of their fanbase, they're better off exercising their right to change the ending and give us a good one than keep what's in place.

[Siegdrifa]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

Since apparently some people do not under a contract does not necessarily equate to a legal document but can be a simple promises just not legally binding. I shall educate you.

con·tract
noun
1. an agreement between two or more parties for the doing or not doing of something specified.

Notice this definition makes no distinction between a document but specifically notes an agreement? By BioWare promising us various things in their marketing, it constitutes a contract, which they breached by failing to deliver. Therefore, we have every right to call them on it.

You are refering to a "moral contract" may be ?

Sadly in many country, if it's out of the "legale branche" the validity is void, and we have a sayng describing it perfectly :
"promises engage only those who belive them", and it's pretty clear, you can promise moraly anything you want, if you are not bound by a contract, you don't have to honor what you say (and it's paining me, as a believe true men should honor their words, people who lies can't be trusted, you can't have anything constructive from unstrusted individual).

So for me, Bioware keeping their promises is just a coutesy from them as human being, not because they have to.
The only bond we got with them is the warranty that gave use some right if the product we bought wasn't working as intended.
That said, every man who can't stick to their words should get the backslash in a way. As i said, if we can't trust anybody and check everything and bla bla bla, it would be a damn pain to make something positive out of it (especialy team work).
Legal they didn't do anything wrong, but if they sacrificed some of their reputation to achive that... that's not something to be proud of, and that's not something those who were "promised" will forget.
As the sayng goes "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me".

[Unit-Alpha]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Alrighty then.  I challenge you to a debate-off.  Pick a topic.

Potatoes.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 03:43 .

[Jackal7713]

Dethead123 wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

its the feeling this community has that the decision to change the ending belongs to them, the consumers, rather than the authors of the story, that has caused people to start slinging around that "entitlement" insult.

Indeed. Even I, as part of the community, started to feel this way. That's why I no longer support the Retake movement, nor do I want to be part of the same group as most of the folks who are posting in this thread. I'm still a Mass Effect fan and I still hate the endings, but I no longer wish to be associated with this group.


PS: I miss the good old days when we still had Paragon v.s Renegade debates. Does anyone miss those good old days too?

Y'know what OP that's fine. You don't need to be part of a group. This whole taking sides thing is taking away from what we all really want anyways (well those of us who dislike the ending anyways) and that's a DLC changing/adding/or clarifying the endings. If you don't want to be part of retake that's fine. But it's also ignorant to lump all of us in as entitled children. I hope we all can come away from this with a new ending and all still buddies.

Well said buddy! Well Said!

[Cyph3rX]

Went away to eat, and this is still going strong. My God what has the OP done.

[MetalCargo999]

ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

This does not mean I like the ending, but I love the stories bioware tells. After this, why would they risk trying to do something diffrent? - ashdrake1

I don't think the problem here is the risk they took. Again, there are actually errors in the ending that need to be fixed. Personally, I would have preffered that they would have worked on the dark energy ending, but I know that's not gonna happen. That being said, whatever the ending actually is needs to at least be logically coherant.

They took a tremendous risk.  They killed your Shepard and shook the galaxy like an etch a sketch.  Leaving the fate of the galaxy and the characters so many were attached to up to speculation required a huge set of quads.

It had plot holes, but so what.  Lot's of story's have plot hole, some of them flat out make no sense.  Some times things are ignored in favor of telling the story you want. That is my opinion on that matter.

However going for the bummer ending instead of the feel good movie of the year one is always risky.  Getting the ending "fixed" is going to come at a huge cost in terms of games that want to tell unique stories.  More so for ones owned by the equivalent wall-mart of gaming.

I don't think you can equate "risk" in art direction with "error".  Also, I agree that they took a risk, and I don't really mind tht they did either.  My argument is based on the errors of the ending.  By the way, I only think there are only two plot holes in the ending.  A lot of the problems that are actually in the ending are continuity errors, not plot holes. 

But finally, I'd like to add that when an artist has to hijack his work of art to get a point across instead of doing it through his work, then it is poor art.  This is one of my problems with the ending as well, and with a lot of art that sacrifices itself for the sake of the point the artist is trying to make.  But certain art lends itself quite well to that medium, so I guess I'm not trying to make a blanket statement.  What I am saying is that Mass Effect does not lend itself to that form of artistic expression until the very end of the story.  The justification for this?  Because it is the end.  I don't like that logic.  If feels arbitrary, or... what's the word... but I thnk you know what I mean.

Eh, I can think of a few memorable stories that ignore facts for favor of story, but that is just personal perspective an agree to disagree sort of thing.  Most of the times I can fill them in with speculation.  

It would be wonferfull if people were just clamoring for correction of actual error.  The ending has a few.  This is not what people are unified in asking for.  They want to change the way the ending is told.  They want a completely different ending.  One that ignores trying to tell a unique story.

 I would bet money that bioware had a great concept for the next game in the universe and that the ending was a setup for the next chapter in this setting.  After what EA will make them do, I can't help but wonder how this will impact the original concept.  I image it will be a lot like a pregnant women smoking.  Satisfying right now, but dire long term effects.

At worst, we just won't be as surprised as we would have otherwise been by however Bioware chooses to continue the story.

[Dreogan]

Cyph3rX wrote...

Went away to eat, and this is still going strong. My God what has the OP done.

This is actually a pretty cheery thread now, considering the people that remain seem to have a longer attention span.


Edit: SQUIRREL!

Modifié par Dreogan, 24 mars 2012 - 03:44 .