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My view on BioWare, the demand for a new ending and the Retake movement.


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#876
ashdrake1

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MetalCargo999 wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

This does not mean I like the ending, but I love the stories bioware tells. After this, why would they risk trying to do something diffrent? - ashdrake1

I don't think the problem here is the risk they took. Again, there are actually errors in the ending that need to be fixed. Personally, I would have preffered that they would have worked on the dark energy ending, but I know that's not gonna happen. That being said, whatever the ending actually is needs to at least be logically coherant.


They took a tremendous risk.  They killed your Shepard and shook the galaxy like an etch a sketch.  Leaving the fate of the galaxy and the characters so many were attached to up to speculation required a huge set of quads.

It had plot holes, but so what.  Lot's of story's have plot hole, some of them flat out make no sense.  Some times things are ignored in favor of telling the story you want. That is my opinion on that matter.

However going for the bummer ending instead of the feel good movie of the year one is always risky.  Getting the ending "fixed" is going to come at a huge cost in terms of games that want to tell unique stories.  More so for ones owned by the equivalent wall-mart of gaming.


I don't think you can equate "risk" in art direction with "error".  Also, I agree that they took a risk, and I don't really mind tht they did either.  My argument is based on the errors of the ending.  By the way, I only think there are only two plot holes in the ending.  A lot of the problems that are actually in the ending are continuity errors, not plot holes. 

But finally, I'd like to add that when an artist has to hijack his work of art to get a point across instead of doing it through his work, then it is poor art.  This is one of my problems with the ending as well, and with a lot of art that sacrifices itself for the sake of the point the artist is trying to make.  But certain art lends itself quite well to that medium, so I guess I'm not trying to make a blanket statement.  What I am saying is that Mass Effect does not lend itself to that form of artistic expression until the very end of the story.  The justification for this?  Because it is the end.  I don't like that logic.  If feels arbitrary, or... what's the word... but I thnk you know what I mean.


Eh, I can think of a few memorable stories that ignore facts for favor of story, but that is just personal perspective an agree to disagree sort of thing.  Most of the times I can fill them in with speculation.  

It would be wonferfull if people were just clamoring for correction of actual error.  The ending has a few.  This is not what people are unified in asking for.  They want to change the way the ending is told.  They want a completely different ending.  One that ignores trying to tell a unique story.

 I would bet money that bioware had a great concept for the next game in the universe and that the ending was a setup for the next chapter in this setting.  After what EA will make them do, I can't help but wonder how this will impact the original concept.  I image it will be a lot like a pregnant women smoking.  Satisfying right now, but dire long term effects.






At worst, we just won't be as surprised as we would have otherwise been by however Bioware chooses to continue the story.



At worst is going to be a homogenized story or planned DLC for alternate endings.  Day one DLC is going to seem great after the repercussions of this.  This is a whole new lucrative option for making money and you can bet EA is already drooling over it.  Look at how many people are shouting take my money, change your story.  I can see buy your own adventure's coming soon, extra choices for small fee's.

#877
Unit-Alpha

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Chronor wrote...

All this bs about cutscenes and similar being art and whatnot is just that, bs. It stopped being "art" once we bought the game. Plus, those cutscenes do not happen on their own. There's always some sort of prompt or trigger.

Guess what? Player choice (prompt) gets you to that end (singular) so as to trigger your favorite colored explosion. I'll give you that any cutscenes and similar is artistic. But, with this game, they have to follow a cohesive narrative. BW did an excellent job, right up to the point where we unfortunately killed the last boss, Marauder Shields. See where our bad decision got us.... :-/


Right, if that was the case, then MW would be about 50% art, because about 50% of gameplay is actually cutscene-like.

#878
Cyph3rX

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malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.


Personally, I was expecting more of a DA:O ending where someone had to die, but it would be worth it at least.

Instead we got Deus Ex 1 copypasta with plothole sauce. :sick:

#879
Dethead123

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firebreather19 wrote...

I don't get it, they did you a favor. Collector's Editions almost ALWAYS gets extra DLC which is released later on. By releasing Javik on Day One, they gave everyone--even those who didn't get a CE--the chance to at least use the character.

No offense inteded, but sounds pretty ungrateful.

I used to think the same until I realized just how much of a main character Javik is. He got excluded from the game for a profit/time not being managed wisely not because he was a add-on character. Zaeed and Kasumi are characters you don't really need for the experiance. Javik isn't the same.

#880
Unit-Alpha

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MetalCargo999 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.


Well, there's no chance they would ever change them unless a significant number of people were unhappy, so that's the case here. We are not arguing for happy or sad, we're arguing for sensible endings.


Agreed.  But I think I also have a good argument for happy vs sad endings, and how ideally they should be presented as options.  One thing at a time, though.


Oh, I would *love* a happy ending. But I think most of us can deal with not having that if the endings are logical.

#881
Grasich

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MetalCargo999 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.


Well, there's no chance they would ever change them unless a significant number of people were unhappy, so that's the case here. We are not arguing for happy or sad, we're arguing for sensible endings.


Agreed.  But I think I also have a good argument for happy vs sad endings, and how ideally they should be presented as options.  One thing at a time, though.


This. Sensible AND happy/sad, please? :innocent:

#882
Jackal7713

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Dethead123 wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.

I'd like to have a choice to keep Shepard alive pretty much because 16 different endings is a lot to fill (unless you're just gonna do different colored explosions and having a different teamate come out of the normandy for each one <_<) but I can understand the whole killing off the hero mentality. Besides my shepard was renegade so he never wore protection. You can be sure there's a minishep in the galaxy :police:


Both of my Shepards are paragons and they didn't ware one either. :o

Someone has to have a bun in the oven.

Modifié par Jackal7713, 24 mars 2012 - 03:57 .


#883
Unit-Alpha

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Grasich wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.


Well, there's no chance they would ever change them unless a significant number of people were unhappy, so that's the case here. We are not arguing for happy or sad, we're arguing for sensible endings.


Agreed.  But I think I also have a good argument for happy vs sad endings, and how ideally they should be presented as options.  One thing at a time, though.


This. Sensible AND happy/sad, please? :innocent:


That would be fantastic...

#884
Grasich

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.


Well, there's no chance they would ever change them unless a significant number of people were unhappy, so that's the case here. We are not arguing for happy or sad, we're arguing for sensible endings.


Agreed.  But I think I also have a good argument for happy vs sad endings, and how ideally they should be presented as options.  One thing at a time, though.


Oh, I would *love* a happy ending. But I think most of us can deal with not having that if the endings are logical.


It would certainly be a step in the right direct. But totally honestly, I require at least 1 happy ending to be able to replay the series more than just once.

#885
malra

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.


Well, there's no chance they would ever change them unless a significant number of people were unhappy, so that's the case here. We are not arguing for happy or sad, we're arguing for sensible endings.

exactly.  we can all agree on one thing, there is something wrong. so strength in numbers.

#886
Grasich

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Jackal7713 wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.

I'd like to have a choice to keep Shepard alive pretty much because 16 different endings is a lot to fill (unless you're just gonna do different colored explosions and having a different teamate come out of the normandy for each one <_<) but I can understand the whole killing off the hero mentality. Besides my shepard was renegade so he never wore protection. You can be sure there's a minishep in the galaxy :police:


Both of my Shepards are paragons and they didn't ware one either. :o


Just go blue, then it isn't even an issue. B)

#887
Dethead123

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[quote]Grasich wrote...

Agreed.  But I think I also have a good argument for happy vs sad endings, and how ideally they should be presented as options.  One thing at a time, though.[/quote]

This. Sensible AND happy/sad, please? :innocent:

[/quote]This. Reality is depressing and poopy enough. Can't we have a happy virtual one? :blush:

#888
Unit-Alpha

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Dethead123 wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.

I'd like to have a choice to keep Shepard alive pretty much because 16 different endings is a lot to fill (unless you're just gonna do different colored explosions and having a different teamate come out of the normandy for each one <_<) but I can understand the whole killing off the hero mentality. Besides my shepard was renegade so he never wore protection. You can be sure there's a minishep in the galaxy :police:


Well, with Liara or Miranda you don't because...

that went somewhere dirty very fast.

#889
Chronor

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I would be happy with "wildly" different endings as promised. Happy one included, which will just be the cherry on top.

#890
Unit-Alpha

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Grasich wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.


Well, there's no chance they would ever change them unless a significant number of people were unhappy, so that's the case here. We are not arguing for happy or sad, we're arguing for sensible endings.


Agreed.  But I think I also have a good argument for happy vs sad endings, and how ideally they should be presented as options.  One thing at a time, though.


Oh, I would *love* a happy ending. But I think most of us can deal with not having that if the endings are logical.


It would certainly be a step in the right direct. But totally honestly, I require at least 1 happy ending to be able to replay the series more than just once.


Oh, I completely agree. It's just I've been trained not to ask for a happy ending by all those rainbow and butterfly people who mock those who want a happy ending.

#891
Cyph3rX

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.

I'd like to have a choice to keep Shepard alive pretty much because 16 different endings is a lot to fill (unless you're just gonna do different colored explosions and having a different teamate come out of the normandy for each one <_<) but I can understand the whole killing off the hero mentality. Besides my shepard was renegade so he never wore protection. You can be sure there's a minishep in the galaxy :police:


Well, with Liara or Miranda you don't because...

that went somewhere dirty very fast.


Cannot. Be. Unseen.

#892
Jackal7713

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Grasich wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.

I'd like to have a choice to keep Shepard alive pretty much because 16 different endings is a lot to fill (unless you're just gonna do different colored explosions and having a different teamate come out of the normandy for each one <_<) but I can understand the whole killing off the hero mentality. Besides my shepard was renegade so he never wore protection. You can be sure there's a minishep in the galaxy :police:


Both of my Shepards are paragons and they didn't ware one either. :o


Just go blue, then it isn't even an issue. B)


She totally tricked my Shepard that was with Ash though. The "gift" was her getting some of my Shapard DNA. I remember what she said in ME 1.:blink:

#893
Unit-Alpha

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Jackal7713 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.

I'd like to have a choice to keep Shepard alive pretty much because 16 different endings is a lot to fill (unless you're just gonna do different colored explosions and having a different teamate come out of the normandy for each one <_<) but I can understand the whole killing off the hero mentality. Besides my shepard was renegade so he never wore protection. You can be sure there's a minishep in the galaxy :police:


Both of my Shepards are paragons and they didn't ware one either. :o


Just go blue, then it isn't even an issue. B)


She totally tricked my Shepard that was with Ash though. The "gift" was her getting some of my Shapard DNA. I remember what she said in ME 1.:blink:


Oh, my conniving Liara...

#894
Aiyie

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LegatoSkyheart wrote...

So it's ok to make everyone believe that your choices matter and to tell everyone there are 16 different endings when there are really just 3/1?


i can promise you anything... if you believe i ****** liquid gold and can bring the dead back to life, is it my fault you were gullible?

sorry... i have the overwhelming urge to play devil's advocate right now.:unsure:

#895
Dethead123

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

Oh, I completely agree. It's just I've been trained not to ask for a happy ending by all those rainbow and butterfly people who mock those who want a happy ending.

How dare you want a happy ending!

#896
malra

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Cyph3rX wrote...

malra wrote...

this may get me drawn and quartered (well hopefully not in this thread) but I personally don't think we should ask for a new ending simply because its "sad" or "dark" so while I may find things in common with retake I don't have everything in common. which is okay. for me the more important thing was for them to know that there is a significant number of people unhappy and this in itself may prompt them to rethink what they have done.


Personally, I was expecting more of a DA:O ending where someone had to die, but it would be worth it at least.

Instead we got Deus Ex 1 copypasta with plothole sauce. :sick:

nice image with the DE (lol).

#897
MetalCargo999

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ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

ashdrake1 wrote...

MetalCargo999 wrote...

This does not mean I like the ending, but I love the stories bioware tells. After this, why would they risk trying to do something diffrent? - ashdrake1

I don't think the problem here is the risk they took. Again, there are actually errors in the ending that need to be fixed. Personally, I would have preffered that they would have worked on the dark energy ending, but I know that's not gonna happen. That being said, whatever the ending actually is needs to at least be logically coherant.


They took a tremendous risk.  They killed your Shepard and shook the galaxy like an etch a sketch.  Leaving the fate of the galaxy and the characters so many were attached to up to speculation required a huge set of quads.

It had plot holes, but so what.  Lot's of story's have plot hole, some of them flat out make no sense.  Some times things are ignored in favor of telling the story you want. That is my opinion on that matter.

However going for the bummer ending instead of the feel good movie of the year one is always risky.  Getting the ending "fixed" is going to come at a huge cost in terms of games that want to tell unique stories.  More so for ones owned by the equivalent wall-mart of gaming.


I don't think you can equate "risk" in art direction with "error".  Also, I agree that they took a risk, and I don't really mind tht they did either.  My argument is based on the errors of the ending.  By the way, I only think there are only two plot holes in the ending.  A lot of the problems that are actually in the ending are continuity errors, not plot holes. 

But finally, I'd like to add that when an artist has to hijack his work of art to get a point across instead of doing it through his work, then it is poor art.  This is one of my problems with the ending as well, and with a lot of art that sacrifices itself for the sake of the point the artist is trying to make.  But certain art lends itself quite well to that medium, so I guess I'm not trying to make a blanket statement.  What I am saying is that Mass Effect does not lend itself to that form of artistic expression until the very end of the story.  The justification for this?  Because it is the end.  I don't like that logic.  If feels arbitrary, or... what's the word... but I thnk you know what I mean.


Eh, I can think of a few memorable stories that ignore facts for favor of story, but that is just personal perspective an agree to disagree sort of thing.  Most of the times I can fill them in with speculation.  

It would be wonferfull if people were just clamoring for correction of actual error.  The ending has a few.  This is not what people are unified in asking for.  They want to change the way the ending is told.  They want a completely different ending.  One that ignores trying to tell a unique story.

 I would bet money that bioware had a great concept for the next game in the universe and that the ending was a setup for the next chapter in this setting.  After what EA will make them do, I can't help but wonder how this will impact the original concept.  I image it will be a lot like a pregnant women smoking.  Satisfying right now, but dire long term effects.






At worst, we just won't be as surprised as we would have otherwise been by however Bioware chooses to continue the story.



At worst is going to be a homogenized story or planned DLC for alternate endings.  Day one DLC is going to seem great after the repercussions of this.  This is a whole new lucrative option for making money and you can bet EA is already drooling over it.  Look at how many people are shouting take my money, change your story.  I can see buy your own adventure's coming soon, extra choices for small fee's.


I disagree with the homogenized story.  This form of story telling lends itself to presenting several options the story can go.  Look at Mass Effect 2, for example.  You can actually die, as Shepard, in the end game.  I actually found this ending to be very powerful, and twhen Shepard's role in the conversation was filled by Joker?  Fantastic!  Risk isn't the problem.  Getting it right is the problem.  Do you think Bioware would be making changes or additions if people weren't poking holes through the endings like swiss cheese?  Probably not, because while people may personally dislike the ending, they can't really argue against its validity as an ending.

As for the DLC thing, I totally agree, and it scares me.  But I'm likely not going to play a lot of video games after ME3 because of how terrible it has made me feel about the gaming industry as a whole.

#898
Unit-Alpha

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Dethead123 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Oh, I completely agree. It's just I've been trained not to ask for a happy ending by all those rainbow and butterfly people who mock those who want a happy ending.

How dare you want a happy ending!


DAMN IT! I exposed myself to that!

Back into my shell.

#899
Grasich

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

Jackal7713 wrote...


She totally tricked my Shepard that was with Ash though. The "gift" was her getting some of my Shapard DNA. I remember what she said in ME 1.:blink:


Oh, my conniving Liara...


She's a devious one she is.

"What? No!"

Image IPB

#900
firebreather19

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mghjr6 wrote...

ManiacShoteR wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?

If any part of the game fails, we have the right to ask for something better. It is then their right to say no. And our right to evaluate whether we want to buy future products.

well written 



You have the right to do a lot of things, but it doesn't mean it's in good conscience. The part of the game doesn't fail--it isn't a machine that stops working--you just don't like it, and when you're mad it's easy to associate extreme terminology with something that doesn't fit. 

Multiplayer or gameplay--ie. the glitchy cut scenes--are one thing, but narrative is something else. You're describing technical glitches or overlooked exploits, which happens. But asking to change a story is more a priviledge than a right. I think in this situation, just as many people who swear they'll never buy another Bioware game again would be offset by the folks who find Bioware taking a stand ballsy and worth supporting.