1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Faunwea]

Hexley UK wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?

Did you even read my entire opening post? You clearly didn't, did you?

Demanding a patch or change in gameplay =/= demanding a different story or a different end to that story.

Gameplay is not part of a video-games "artistic integrity". But narrative and cutscenes are very much part of a video-games "artistic integrity". I already explained this in my OP.

But dude....nobodies "Making" anyone do anything....we're criticising it and then its up to them....

This. No one is "forcing" them to make a change. Nobody is going to fake their reactions/feelings just to keep a company from "feeling bad" or "feeling good" about a product they made.

Modifié par Faunwea, 24 mars 2012 - 12:01 .

[Porfirmir]

OP, there is a difference between a cutscene in itself and how the player arrives at that cutscene. We're not asking for existing cutscenes to be changed; we are asking for an entirely new cutscene as a tangible consequence of new choices.

The difference between that and a novel like Harry Potter is this: Mass Effect is a choose-your-own-adventure where each Shepard's history is guided by his or her player, whereas Harry Potter is a story told by one person from beginning to end. We were never given a chance to guide Harry's development and prepare him for his final confrontation with Voldemort. We were, however, able to choose our own Shepard's history, behavior and social circle, as well as the fate of entire civilizations. That is a big, big difference between a novel and an RPG.

Besides, when BioWare chose to withhold certain portions of the experience by monetizing them, Mass Effect ceased to be a piece of art. It would be like taking, say, Tonks' parts out of the book and offering them for an additional 99 cents on top of the cost of the novel. You just can't do that and still call your work "art."

[ShepnTali]

Another OP purposely made to brew up trouble.

[Japkap79]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Art is for the people. Paying for it makes it a commodity.

That statement is flawed, because then no art would actually be art but rather a commodity by your definition, you pay to gain entrance to see art at a museum, and they might have had to pay for getting the art too there museum so the paintings statues and such are a commodity now according to your logic.

Art is in a sense what ever you make of something that another person creates and what they convey is there feelings about what they created, if the item they made is something they put thought into and want to share it with people, and get feedback that is in a nutshell todays definition of art.

The definition of art is controversial in contemporary philosophy. Whether art can be defined has also been a matter of controversy. The philosophical usefulness of a definition of art has also been debated.

Source: http://plato.stanfor...art-definition/

[ryuasiu]

Here is my problem with this, and with most of the "They had an artistic vision" stuff. If this truely how they wished the ending to be, if this was truly the artistic way they wanted to end the game, they would have defended it. Lots of artists make things that people don't like, but they stand by them, defend them, discuss and explain their work. But all we got from them on the ending was "we are listening to your feed back" and "we will make new content based on your feedback" No one is forcing bioware to do this. Bioware had just as much right to tell us off as we had to tell them the ending sucked. If George Lucas and Stephen Spielberg is not getting rid of the "nuke the fridge" Scene and keeping in the aliens then Bioware could have stood by their choices too/

Pssssttttt...secret, the ending was made for DLC, otherwise they wouldn't have hinted at it from the very beginning on their facebook and twitter accounts.

[xxskyshadowxx]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

^This.

Additionally, writing, television and film mediums have peer and also non-peer panels to gauge audience response and make necessary changes based on that response before the work is released to consumers. Heck authors will often write multiple drafts of their own work to satisfy continuity requirements, again before the final work is released. You'll often see them thanking editors, and beta readers for catching those continuity and lore slip-ups.

They don't have to change their endings due to the fact that they ruined their own lore (and lied about it before taking their buyers' money), because that doesn't happen and the possibility of it is prevented before release.

Game devs and writers do not follow this process. The only time peers and non-peers can evaluate the work is after it's finished. They have no right to whine "Novelists and movie writers don't have to change their finished work, stop asking US to change our creative dream waaaah!" because those other mediums follow a completely different process.

If the writers had presented this to say Tor Publishing....Tor would have basically told them to draft most of it over because it didn't fit with the previous work. We would have gotten a more appropriate ending because the publisher would have demanded it.

People need to stop with the "you can't change art" arguments because it doesn't accurately fit with the situation, until game devs start following the same process.

[Reptilian Rob]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lucos many here will attack you for simply expressing a different opinion.

Uhhhhh, this guy again...

[Madecologist]

I agree with the OP but in a weird almost cruel and uncaring fashion. I will explain what I mean.

I never personally asked them to change the ending. I like hanging with the retakers cause it is nice to be with people that agree with you that the endings is bad. However I personaly believe Bioware needs to realise that the current endings are bad and that they will have to face the consequences of their actions, be it as unforgiving as they may be. What they do from here is their choice. If they never do realise it, then they shall when the long term consequences comes rolling in.

A movie producer can do 'what he wants' but if the costumer is unsatisfied, you get bet that will be his last movie (or his second to last movie if he is really lucky). I support the retakers because they are an instrument of 'consequences', only the first but they are a manifestation of the consequences that Bioware will have to face.

[cyrrant]

Mmm...the endings to Harry Potter and LotR were good, though. And if they weren't then they would t have as big of a following. I think you're misconstruing the Retake movement has hating Bioware for what they've done. In realty, for any other publisher they wouldn't have been given this chance. We love Bioware and we love Mass Effect. Many of us would like to see more games set in the universe, but we can't stomach the thought of playing more with the endings as they are.

Our Choices Should Matter - Hold the Line

[SupR G]

Luc0s wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

Are movies art? If you answer is "yes" than you should also understand why the non-interactive parts of video-games are art.

People change movies by rebooting them or remaking them. Filmmakers like George Lucas change entire scenes from movies solely on his own discretion and at the request of nobody. Musicians constantly remix their music or other people's music, or change lyrics to include new artists. Books get revisions. Screenwriters write screenplays that are re-written by two or three other screenwriters. I can go on and on, but just because something is art doesn't mean that it's final. Whoever owns the peice, being a writer, photographer, painter, musician or whatever can change this or make it free for someone else to change at any time if they want. People rallied, asked for a new ending, Bioware listened and decided to change it. They could have said no, but they didn't. They actually care what their fans want instead of maintaining their own "artistic vision" if we want to call it that.

You say you support whatever their decision is, yet you argue against it? I think you're just proving you don't really know what you want or what this is all about really.

Modifié par SupR G, 24 mars 2012 - 12:03 .

[Raptor_Thirteen]

I think when a writer decides whether or not they should change something, they take all sorts of things into account... such as their audience's reaction. The reaction doesn't guarantee a change, but it can influence one. That influence doesn't mean the writer was forced, just that they made their decision on all known variables. It is still ultimately Bioware's choice TO change things, and inevitably must be their writers' choice what changes to make.

[Unit-Alpha]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lucos many here will attack you for simply expressing a different opinion.

Uhhhhh, this guy again...

Oh no, he's come out of his cave! RUN!

[Baronesa]

Luc0s? Can I get your opinion on this?

http://kotaku.com/58...a-ton-of-errors

Also.. uhmm what is the stance of kotaku on changing the game?

Modifié par Baronesa, 24 mars 2012 - 12:03 .

[wright1978]

Luc0s wrote...

RogueBot wrote...

Maybe you should read the whole article. They all make good points-- no need to latch onto one quote in particular.

I did read the whole article. And it seems pretty clear to me that though the developers are not against changing the ending in a game, they do think that demanding a change in the ending is wrong. I agree with that.

Then i draw your attention to Susan O'connor quote(below). If your game's about player agency it is not acceptable to just strip it out at the lat second.

"Speaking more generally, this issue feels like one of player expectation. The takeaway, for me, is that if players are promised player agency, they’re going to want to see that promise delivered all the way to the (bitter) end.
If players know from the get-go that they’re playing an authored game—or if they’re lulled into complacency with the illusion of agency—then they’ll accept an authored ending, as we’ve seen with other successful games. The trick is to know up front which kind of game the team is making, so that they can set player expectation—AND TEAM expectation as well. If the creatives know up front that they’re not the ones telling the story—that their job is to give players the tools to tell their own story, and then get out of the way—then they’ll come at the work from a completely different place. And the end result will be dramatically different."

[Unit-Alpha]

Luc0s wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Lucos many here will attack you for simply expressing a different opinion. If you switch stances the ones you once called allies end up turning on you as shown here. Just remember the only opinion that matters is your own regarding how you see and view the world and elements within.

I don't care. If that's how it is than that's how it is. I rather stay true to my own beliefs than follow a movement that I no longer agree with. My beliefs have changed and with this topic I wanted to explain why my beliefs have changed. If people do not respect that, than that's their problem, not mine.

I doubt you ever agreed with it in the first place.

[krogstor]

Baronesa wrote...

uhmm What is your opinion on Mass Effect Deception?

BioWare and Del Rey Books are changing the book to accommodate costumer's feedback.

Why is it ok for BioWare to do that on the 4th Book of Mass Effect, but not good for ME3 endings?

Mass Effect Deception:  The story of the Mass Effect 3 ending.

Modifié par krogstor, 24 mars 2012 - 12:04 .

[TexasToast712]

 Lucos is indoctrinated. You know what must be done, BSN.

[Iwillbeback]

Bioware is allowed to make up their own mind.
We can influence them to make up their mind on something.

We reserve the right to tell them where to go and that we will not buy DLC for mass effect 3 until it is up to standards of what we want.

[Tazzmission]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

says who you?


get over yourself because i would love some evidence to back up your claim like a legislation that says such a thing

[CronoDragoon]

Luc0s wrote...

I did not like the way Harry Potter ended. Do I now have the right to demand that J.K. Rowling changes the end? Wouldn't I look like a complete retard when I would do that?

JK Rowling was going to kill off Harry Potter. Fans begged her not to and she changed her mind. Please stop pretending that artistic integrity trumps all.

[StarGateGod]

Luc0s wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

Are movies art? If you answer is "yes" than you should also understand why the non-interactive parts of video-games are art.

are you saying that they didnt lie to us, and break the promises about the game, becuase i can quite easily pull up ythe list

[mpgeist]

BioWare is free to keep their terrible ending. I will just choose never to patronize any of their products again, because I feel this ending has betrayed everything they promised and offered with their previous games. Like some relationships I've had, sometimes things change and it just isn't what you used to to love anymore.

[ArcanistLibram]

Luc0s wrote...

Let me ask you this: Are we in our right to demand a new ending for Lord of The Rings? Is it fair if we demand a new ending for Harry Potter?

If Harry Potter ended with Remus and Tonks having dinner with Harry one chapter after they died, then yeah, I would demand a new ending to the Harry Potter series.

[Spectre-00N7]

Taleroth wrote...

If the ending is bad, sure, we're in the right to ask for something better. If the gameplay is bad, do you have the right to ask for a patch? If there are bugs, do you have a right? If the classes are unbalanced, are we to shut up and not say anything?

If any part of the game fails, we have the right to ask for something better. It is then their right to say no. And our right to evaluate whether we want to buy future products.

This is how I feel about it.  We are not forcing them to make the decision, we only ask them if they could make our gaming experience better.