1311 réponses à ce sujet

[MetalCargo999]

DemGeth wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

DA:O wasn't art?

I still think we are all getting in the mindset that any game is art. That's simply not true. No, DAO is not art. There are very few that actually are.

Games like Journey, fl0wer, Child of Eden, etc are.

So what makes it art?

Look at those games and tell me they aren't art. They were built to be art almost entirely. DAO was built around a plot and characters, not art, as is more than evident visually.

Ok, so consumer stuff like DA:O should be determined by what consumers like.  

So now explain why the gay romances weren't taken out when the CC complained.  That is a substantial consumer base that didn't buy the game as a result.  The game loses nothing substantial by taking MM FF out of it.  There's no REASON to keep them in from a PRODUCT stand point.  

Actually, being inclusive likely helped their sales in the long run, and anyone worth their paycheck at EA/bioware took the gaybashing community into consideration.

[FemmeShep]

So why do people think that art can't be a collaboration? That it can't be changed....

[malra]

Veryth wrote...

The main thing that a lot of people don't understand about this, including some that were interviewed in the article, was that players were promised a story, from day 1, in which there was no canon and that was their own story.

That was the main pitch for the entire Mass Effect series, and really, you could potentially consider that their artistic vision for the series as well.

yes, but it isn't it really naive to expect a bunch of scifi people to not invent canon if the writers don't?

[Jackal7713]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Art is never finished, only abandoned.
~Leonardo da Vinci

Da Vinci also changed his art several times. This includes the Mona Lisa and The Adoration of the Magi.

So people are saying they can't change the ending because of "Artist integrity"? Interesting

I hate reposting something, but the art argument has come up again so I will crush it again.

If Da Vinci could change his artwork, why can't Bioware? They aren't even close to Da Vinci's talent or standing.

[Unit-Alpha]

KustomDeluxe wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

I'm afraid I went for Tali. I'll leave the tentacle-monsters to you adventurous types.

Hey now, asari are the mnost human-like things in game

Actually, I believe that honor falls to Ashley Williams/Kaidan Alenko.
They're the most human-like things in the game!

Tricky you

Cyph3rX wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

I leave for half an hour and this thread becomes much more angry.

Allow me to make things better.

I'm afraid I went for Tali. I'll leave the tentacle-monsters to you adventurous types.

Tentacle hair is hot. Just saying.

No judgement here.

Did someone confuse Hanar with Asari? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/blushing.png[/smilie]

I've seen enough....

Nevermind.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 05:02 .

[The Wumpus]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Thanks; I was looking for that. Saved.

Modifié par The Wumpus, 24 mars 2012 - 05:02 .

[Grasich]

FemmeShep wrote...

So why do people think that art can't be a collaboration? That it can't be changed....

Another loaded question.

Personally though I don't get it. I think some people have this view of artists as all being noble beings trying to teach moral messages through their art or something. Let's face it though, most art is done to please an audience, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Dethead123]

Grasich wrote...

Personally, this is what I think of as Tali. I ignore that silly photoshop they did.

Please this is Tali.

[DemGeth]

Ok, so consumer stuff like DA:O should be determined by what consumers like.  

So now explain why the gay romances weren't taken out when the CC complained.  That is a substantial consumer base that didn't buy the game as a result.  The game loses nothing substantial by taking MM FF out of it.  There's no REASON to keep them in from a PRODUCT stand point.  



[/quote]

If there is a push by the fans for something to be added, and the magnitude is greater than the push against it, it is within logical business sense to comply.

[/quote]

So you're saying the correct thing to do would of been to take them out.  That was a very big push too.  It was bigger than the Retake thing going on now if you remember.  This was something discussed a lot by the national media in the US and it DID cost them sales.

[Unit-Alpha]

Dethead123 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Personally, this is what I think of as Tali. I ignore that silly photoshop they did.

Please this is Tali.

OH GOD! AHHHHHHH!!! RUN FOR THE HILLS!

[Grasich]

Dethead123 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Personally, this is what I think of as Tali. I ignore that silly photoshop they did.

Please this is

[MetalCargo999]

Veryth wrote...

The main thing that a lot of people don't understand about this, including some that were interviewed in the article, was that players were promised a story, from day 1, in which there was no canon and that was their own story.

That was the main pitch for the entire Mass Effect series, and really, you could potentially consider that their artistic vision for the series as well.

Fantastic point.  You took the words right out of my mouth!

[AnsinJung]

RedundantAccount wrote...

If all of this is really about semantics, respectfully, I don't think you really understand that point of protests... If someone or a group of someones dislikes something enough to actually form a cohesive protest, we've moved beyond the point of passive words. No, I'm not saying we've escalated to Syrian level violence in the streets either. But, protesting 101: there has to be a strong unifying cause or it will collapse. This "movement" would never have been able to rally the support for Childs Play that it did, for example, based on a bunch of dissatisfied customers "really asking nicely, but it's totally up to you if you want to, but if you could possibly change the endings that'd be great 'cuz a bunch of us really didn't like them".  Imagine the banners. I'm being slightly facetious, but I hope my point is made.

Google "resume action words," for example. Passive wishy-washy words do not get results - on resumes or in protests. If the word "demand" was not used, I promise this whole entire movement would not have received one iota of press coverage or the very attention from BioWare that is its raison d'etre. That's fact. Every protest has a demand. Every single one does - whether it's voiced loudly (i.e "What do we want ___, when do we want it, NOW) variety or softly with passive resistance type movements. 

Just my $.02

Thank you. 

If Harry Potter ended like this, fans would have demanded a change.  They might not have gotten one, but they'd have clamored for it. 

In general, we're not "demanding" an ending like we're little kids screaming for mommy to buy us treats or let us hold her cell phone.  It's just a word.  We're not holding anyone hostage.

This is just supply and "demand" at work, whether or not anything changes with the ME endings.  Although I may buy from Bioware again, these endings lowered those odds, particularly if this movement is unsuccessful. 

I still have hope that there was some plan for indoc theory from the beginning and that Bioware may "wow" us.  It's too soon after release to go into mourning and doomsaying things like "every day my hope dies a little."  Patience is good.

[Unit-Alpha]

DemGeth wrote...

So you're saying the correct thing to do would of been to take them out.  That was a very big push too.  It was bigger than the Retake thing going on now if you remember.  This was something discussed a lot by the national media in the US and it DID cost them sales.

No, the bigger push was for them to remain. It cost them sales among the slightly overbearing religious right, but those people hardly ever buy games anyway; however, it was more than made up by goodwill and other sales from those who wanted this.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 05:05 .

[malra]

FemmeShep wrote...

So why do people think that art can't be a collaboration? That it can't be changed....

well, i think we are reaching consensus that it can be collaboration (just look at the numbers of different people that had their hands in writing this story) and that apparently it can be changed (just look at the numbers of different people that had their hands in writing this story and the discontinuity of it) and that overall when the writers on the writing team change multiple times between episodes, it is possible to say that "too many cooks spoiled the broth" but i fail to follow the OP into how demanding something better is actually worse than the awful thing to begin with.

[Lugaidster]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

DA:O wasn't art?

I still think we are all getting in the mindset that any game is art. That's simply not true. No, DAO is not art. There are very few that actually are.

Games like Journey, fl0wer, Child of Eden, etc are.

So what makes it art?

Look at those games and tell me they aren't art. They were built to be art almost entirely. DAO was built around a plot and characters, not art, as is more than evident visually.

That's just a subjective definition. Art is art, whether you like it or not. Maybe those games are examples of fine art, so what? Crappy art has existed forever, it's still art (that's why it has art as part of the name). Everything you quoted is the result of creative work and art is:

"the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also :works so produced" - Merriam Webster

What is aesthetic is subjective, so you can't objectively disregard a work as not art because it's not subjectively appealing to you. At most, you can say this isn't art for me. But that's about it. 

[Cyph3rX]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Personally, this is what I think of as Tali. I ignore that silly photoshop they did.

Please this is Tali.

OH GOD! AHHHHHHH!!! RUN FOR THE HILLS!

That's almost as bad as the edited Diana Allers pic on that fake twitter account lol.

[Unit-Alpha]

Lugaidster wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

DA:O wasn't art?

I still think we are all getting in the mindset that any game is art. That's simply not true. No, DAO is not art. There are very few that actually are.

Games like Journey, fl0wer, Child of Eden, etc are.

So what makes it art?

Look at those games and tell me they aren't art. They were built to be art almost entirely. DAO was built around a plot and characters, not art, as is more than evident visually.

That's just a subjective definition. Art is art, whether you like it or not. Maybe those games are examples of fine art, so what? Crappy art has existed forever, it's still art (that's why it has art as part of the name). Everything you quoted is the result of creative work and art is:

"the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also :works so produced" - Merriam Webster

What is aesthetic is subjective, so you can't objectively disregard a work as not art because it's not subjectively appealing to you. At most, you can say this isn't art for me. But that's about it. 

Fine, so everything is art, including stuff people scribble on the walls of bathroom stalls. If you want that to be your definition, so be it.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 05:06 .

[aliengmr1]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

"So yes, when the story in a video-game is bad, or when the end to that story is bad, you just have to suck it up. You are free to express your dissapointment. You are even free to ask BioWare for change, but you are not within your right to DEMAND change."

I believe they are asking them to change it . If the company doesn't change it the customer goes elsewhere. That is the only thing that is going to happen.

And make Bioware cry!!!  th...tha...that's crazy. They might hate us and stop making things for us to buy. You're mad I tell you. *whispers*  they're listening. musn't upset them. shhhhhh:?

Modifié par aliengmr1, 24 mars 2012 - 05:07 .

[Grasich]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

So you're saying the correct thing to do would of been to take them out.  That was a very big push too.  It was bigger than the Retake thing going on now if you remember.  This was something discussed a lot by the national media in the US and it DID cost them sales.

No, the bigger push was for them to remain. It cost them sales among the slightly overbearing religious right, but those people hardly ever buy games anyway; however, it was more than made up by goodwill and other sales from those who wanted this.

This. Most people really didn't care one way or the other, or were for it. Only a very very tiny number of people were really against it, they just shouted really loudly.

[FemmeShep]

Grasich wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

So why do people think that art can't be a collaboration? That it can't be changed....

Another loaded question.

Personally though I don't get it. I think some people have this view of artists as all being noble beings trying to teach moral messages through their art or something. Let's face it though, most art is done to please an audience, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I didn't mean for it to be loaded. I just think it's strange how people view "art" as this object that is only made for the gratification of the artist, and not for others. I especially find this weird, seeing as BioWare has built their company around fan participation and collaboration.

I agree that no one should force them to change anything. But I also don't see a problem with fans voicing their want for something different. And whatever BioWare decides, is what they decide. 

[Murrytmds]

Art is art, but when you buy something you do so expecting to have what was promised delivered to you. There is nothing wrong in demanding someone make good on their original agreement.

[DemGeth]

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

[Jackal7713]

@Lugaidster If Da Vinci could change his art, and has a greater standing then a video game company, why can't Bioware?

[JasonDaPsycho]

Personally, I'm holding the line because BioWare has lied in its advertising campaigns. It's not a matter of visions.