1311 réponses à ce sujet

[Johnnycide]

Demanding a better ending is wrong, because better is a subjective term. What may be better to one person may not be to another. What should be demanded is what was originally intended multiple endings.

[Grasich]

FemmeShep wrote...

Grasich wrote...

FemmeShep wrote...

So why do people think that art can't be a collaboration? That it can't be changed....

Another loaded question.

Personally though I don't get it. I think some people have this view of artists as all being noble beings trying to teach moral messages through their art or something. Let's face it though, most art is done to please an audience, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I didn't mean for it to be loaded. I just think it's strange how people view "art" as this object that is only made for the gratification of the artist, and not for others. I especially find this weird, seeing as BioWare has built their company around fan participation and collaboration.

I agree that no one should force them to change anything. But I also don't see a problem with fans voicing their want for something different. And whatever BioWare decides, is what they decide. 

I agree. I just can't wrap my head around the concept of a commercial product being the same as "art for the artist".

[Ariaya]

First of all, I am not affiliated with any of the movements on the forum. I'm just a fan who would like an ending with more closure and, ideally, who would like some other ending options. Bioware has always been open to player feedback. In fact, they encourage it and have even incorporated some fan desires and ideas into their games.

The beauty of what Bioware has done with the Mass Effect series is that they've created a rich and vast world for players to not just watch--but to participate in and to experience first hand through Shepard's eyes. As an RPG ME is also unusual in that it's a trilogy. We've been with Shepard for a long time. We've participated in this universe for a long time. We feel that we are part of the narrative. I believe Bioware has even SAID that the player is part of of and participatory in creating their Shepard's story.

I think what Bioware has done is unprecedented in the richness of immersion that players feel. Perhaps that's one of the reasons that the game's controversial ending has sparked so much debate. Mass Effect isn't like a book or a movie. It's not a linear narrative. As the series has progressed and as our individual Shepards' stories have developed, I think we all feel even more attached to and a part of the series.

Many people feel unsatisfied regarding the conclusion of the Mass Effect series. There are far too many reasons for me to document in this post and there really is no need for me to do so. There are plenty of posts already on the forums surrounding this topic.

I understand what you are saying about artistic freedom being compromised but, given the unique nature of Mass Effect player-participatory narrative, I think that the individuals who play the game are not overstepping any bounds to say, "Hey, we really don't like how this ended. We'd like some more clarity and closure. We'd like some more ending options." Of course, constructive criticism is the best way to go about this.

Also, if the ending is expanded (given more context and clarity), I don't see how that compromises the artistic integrity of the writers. Art is often changed, adapted, re-interpreted, re-written, etc. It evolves.

If ending options are added, you still have the original endings. It doesn't tamper with the "artistic integrity of the original." It's a RPG so adding ending options only adds other ways to imagine, interact with, and participate in the ME experience.

[Cyph3rX]

aliengmr1 wrote...

ghostbusters101 wrote...

"So yes, when the story in a video-game is bad, or when the end to that story is bad, you just have to suck it up. You are free to express your dissapointment. You are even free to ask BioWare for change, but you are not within your right to DEMAND change."

I believe they are asking them to change it . If the company doesn't change it the customer goes elsewhere. That is the only thing that is going to happen.

And make Bioware cry!!!  th...tha...that's crazy. They might hate us and stop making things for us to buy. You're mad I tell you. *whispers*  they're listening. musn't upset them. shhhhhh:?

Personally, with what they've released lately, I think they should stop and take a moment to look at their past and present business models objectively. Starting with every game after ME2's release.

[Grasich]

Johnnycide wrote...

Demanding a better ending is wrong, because better is a subjective term. What may be better to one person may not be to another. What should be demanded is what was originally intended multiple endings.

i.e. Better endings

Besides, we're asking for it to be DLC, not a patch.

[Unit-Alpha]

FYI, there is actually an intangible asset in a company's balance sheet (which helps determine stock price and investor confidence, indirectly) that is called goodwill and is based off the perceived value of a company's customers and brand. Sure, it's recorded at historic cost, but the actual value takes a cut when stuff like this happens.

[Unit-Alpha]

DemGeth wrote...

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

For a company like Bioware that is owned by a publically traded company, EA, which focuses on profits, yes, this is the case.

[malra]

Ariaya wrote...

First of all, I am not affiliated with any of the movements on the forum. I'm just a fan who would like an ending with more closure and, ideally, who would like some other ending options. Bioware has always been open to player feedback. In fact, they encourage it and have even incorporated some fan desires and ideas into their games.

The beauty of what Bioware has done with the Mass Effect series is that they've created a rich and vast world for players to not just watch--but to participate in and to experience first hand through Shepard's eyes. As an RPG ME is also unusual in that it's a trilogy. We've been with Shepard for a long time. We've participated in this universe for a long time. We feel that we are part of the narrative. I believe Bioware has even SAID that the player is part of of and participatory in creating their Shepard's story.

I think what Bioware has done is unprecedented in the richness of immersion that players feel. Perhaps that's one of the reasons that the game's controversial ending has sparked so much debate. Mass Effect isn't like a book or a movie. It's not a linear narrative. As the series has progressed and as our individual Shepards' stories have developed, I think we all feel even more attached to and a part of the series.

Many people feel unsatisfied regarding the conclusion of the Mass Effect series. There are far too many reasons for me to document in this post and there really is no need for me to do so. There are plenty of posts already on the forums surrounding this topic.

I understand what you are saying about artistic freedom being compromised but, given the unique nature of Mass Effect player-participatory narrative, I think that the individuals who play the game are not overstepping any bounds to say, "Hey, we really don't like how this ended. We'd like some more clarity and closure. We'd like some more ending options." Of course, constructive criticism is the best way to go about this.

Also, if the ending is expanded (given more context and clarity), I don't see how that compromises the artistic integrity of the writers. Art is often changed, adapted, re-interpreted, re-written, etc. It evolves.

If ending options are added, you still have the original endings. It doesn't tamper with the "artistic integrity of the original." It's a RPG so adding ending options only adds other ways to imagine, interact with, and participate in the ME experience.

very well thought out.

[Johnnycide]

Grasich wrote...

Johnnycide wrote...

Demanding a better ending is wrong, because better is a subjective term. What may be better to one person may not be to another. What should be demanded is what was originally intended multiple endings.

i.e. Better endings

Besides, we're asking for it to be DLC, not a patch.

See saying that though doesn't take into consideration the people who somehow enjoyed these endings. Having those still available, plus other sensical and logical endings is a win win for everyone.

[MetalCargo999]

DemGeth wrote...

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

You could obviously make it.  You probably won't make a lot of money off of it though.

[Grasich]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

For a company like Bioware that is owned by a publically traded company, EA, which focuses on profits, yes, this is the case.

This is rather sad, but it is true.

[Dethead123]

DemGeth wrote...

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

These situations you guys make aren't really good analogies.

[Madecologist]

When I see that picture.... the one with Tali and the paperbag remark.... I can just imagine the convo with Garrus.

Tali: Have you ever heard of the paper bag ritual?
Garrus: Oh yeah.. I have. It is quite popular.... *Garrus sneaks away and finds Shepard*
Garrus to Shepard: That bad huh?
Shepard: You wouldn't believe.

Modifié par Madecologist, 24 mars 2012 - 05:13 .

[DemGeth]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

For a company like Bioware that is owned by a publically traded company, EA, which focuses on profits, yes, this is the case.

So you're in favor of censorship of anything sold, that you haven't classified as art?


And I'm sorry what was that definition again?

[Cyph3rX]

Johnnycide wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Johnnycide wrote...

Demanding a better ending is wrong, because better is a subjective term. What may be better to one person may not be to another. What should be demanded is what was originally intended multiple endings.

i.e. Better endings

Besides, we're asking for it to be DLC, not a patch.

See saying that though doesn't take into consideration the people who somehow enjoyed these endings. Having those still available, plus other sensical and logical endings is a win win for everyone.

The only thing I can think of is that they secretly hate it too, but want us all to suffer equally.

Just hope the DLC is free, spent enough money to get a complete ending.

[Grasich]

Madecologist wrote...

When I see that picture.... the one with Tali and the paperbag remark.... I can just imagine the convo with Garrus.

Tali: Have you ever heard of the paper bag ritual?
Garrus: Oh yeah.. I have it is quite popular.... *Garrus sneaks away and finds Shepard*
Garrus to Shepard: That bad huh?
Shepard: You wouldn't believe.

ROFL. I almost want to see this now.

Garrus FTW.

[Dethead123]

Johnnycide wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Johnnycide wrote...

Demanding a better ending is wrong, because better is a subjective term. What may be better to one person may not be to another. What should be demanded is what was originally intended multiple endings.

i.e. Better endings

Besides, we're asking for it to be DLC, not a patch.

See saying that though doesn't take into consideration the people who somehow enjoyed these endings. Having those still available, plus other sensical and logical endings is a win win for everyone.

Agreed but if they're gonna keep their current endings it'd be nice if they made them make actual sense.

[Unit-Alpha]

DemGeth wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

For a company like Bioware that is owned by a publically traded company, EA, which focuses on profits, yes, this is the case.

So you're in favor of censorship of anything sold, that you haven't classified as art?


And I'm sorry what was that definition again?

I didn't say censorship. From a business perspective, this is the logical thing to do. Period.

I'm not gonna argue morality.

[Grasich]

DemGeth wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

For a company like Bioware that is owned by a publically traded company, EA, which focuses on profits, yes, this is the case.

So you're in favor of censorship of anything sold, that you haven't classified as art?


And I'm sorry what was that definition again?

I think you misunderstood what he said.

[MetalCargo999]

Dethead123 wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

These situations you guys make aren't really good analogies.

LOL.  Agreed.

[Johnnycide]

Dethead123 wrote...

Johnnycide wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Johnnycide wrote...

Demanding a better ending is wrong, because better is a subjective term. What may be better to one person may not be to another. What should be demanded is what was originally intended multiple endings.

i.e. Better endings

Besides, we're asking for it to be DLC, not a patch.

See saying that though doesn't take into consideration the people who somehow enjoyed these endings. Having those still available, plus other sensical and logical endings is a win win for everyone.

Agreed but if they're gonna keep their current endings it'd be nice if they made them make actual sense.

Well maybe they should include two versions of these endings as well, the original (for the people who want to be able to fill in the blanks themselves) and a revised edition (where there aren't enormous leaps in logic).

[Unit-Alpha]

MetalCargo999 wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

These situations you guys make aren't really good analogies.

LOL.  Agreed.

Haha, yeah. Too bad this actually happens.

[aliengmr1]

You know EA just love this argument. Seriously. By all means, surrender whatever influence you have, which is almost nothing anyway. Giving yourself moral limits when dealing with EA is the silliest thing I have ever heard of. EA looks at you and sees ---------> $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[Amaradus]

Regardless of whether the endings were written right is a moot point to me, the sheer laziness of how similar the ending were is what I am most pissed off about, about how they didn't even put any effort into actually MAKING them different, and the gaping plot holes. If they fix those two things I can stomach the star child and the weak options and the retarded logic that went behind the reapers. I won't like it but I also wont feel so strongly as to see it changed.

Modifié par Amaradus, 24 mars 2012 - 05:16 .

[DemGeth]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

So your saying if there's more bigoted people out there, that you couldn't make a game with gay romances...because it would cost you sales?

For a company like Bioware that is owned by a publically traded company, EA, which focuses on profits, yes, this is the case.

So you're in favor of censorship of anything sold, that you haven't classified as art?


And I'm sorry what was that definition again?

I didn't say censorship. From a business perspective, this is the logical thing to do. Period.

I'm not gonna argue morality.

yes.  with what you are saying I wouldn't want to argue morality either.