1316 réponses à ce sujet

[DemGeth]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Hahahaha, obvious? The question you were asked was "Then what is it then?" Not "what is it to you then?". Now you're just digging yourself into a hole, but keep going. I'm genuinely interested in seeing where you want to take this.

You asked for her opinion on something. When you wrote college papers, did you preface every supporting paragraph with "in my opinion?"

lol what classes you take where anything is your opinion.  

[Renoscott]

[quote]aliengmr1 wrote...

[quote]Renoscott wrote...


[/quote]

By destroying the universe? really?

[/quote] I never sed I didn't hate the ending hell I see the plot holes and everything, it was a stupide way to end it and it was clearly rushed for that, Mike just simply wanted a way for it to end so more fanfics will come out i guess[/quote]

I get what you are saying, but he left no room at all for that. This is one of my major gripes with it. Besides, I believe the Relays being destroyed was only supposed to happen in one of the RGB choices.

Listen the endings are a mess and need to be cleaned up, I know they can do better.
[/quote]And they are, just like theyv told every one, just hold on!

[Unit-Alpha]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Hahahaha, obvious? The question you were asked was "Then what is it then?" Not "what is it to you then?". Now you're just digging yourself into a hole, but keep going. I'm genuinely interested in seeing where you want to take this.

You asked for her opinion on something. When you wrote college papers, did you preface every supporting paragraph with "in my opinion?"

I'm a guy

But thanks for the support, either way.

[TuringPoint]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

It's no longer art?  Then its no longer worth my money.

@OP:  I think it's awesome you've been  enlightened.  Really, I do.  I respect that you would post about it too.

[FRancium]

oops double post

Modifié par FRancium, 24 mars 2012 - 05:50 .

[Jackal7713]

FRancium wrote...

maybe the movement started on too strong of a word in "demand", but I don't see a problem in voicing our "suggestions".

Is art so sacred that audiences don't even have the right to suggest and critique?
Why can't artists alter their art if they feel necessary? (to improve, to pander, etc)

Did I miss something? Did Art Galleries start selling ME 3 as prints? Or did gamestop start selling works of Art?

[Unit-Alpha]

DemGeth wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Hahahaha, obvious? The question you were asked was "Then what is it then?" Not "what is it to you then?". Now you're just digging yourself into a hole, but keep going. I'm genuinely interested in seeing where you want to take this.

You asked for her opinion on something. When you wrote college papers, did you preface every supporting paragraph with "in my opinion?"

lol what classes you take where anything is your opinion.  

You for serious? I take a business class where quite a bit is based on opinion of how to proceed in deals. I also took a science and technology class where it was entirely opinion.

And I'm a freaking hard science major.

[Dethead123]

Renoscott wrote...

Your going too clame down! Hell the hole "shepred was indoctrinated" was from the end of ME2. If the theroy is right, shepred was haveing a dream the hole time and just K.O.ed on the ground for a wile.

lol I'm calm bro. I just was using vulgarity to "zazz it up". Anyways so what if Shepard wakes up and it was all a dream? HE STILL HAS TO FACE THE REAPERS. If the whole point of the crucible is a trap in that theory then how is Shepard gonna defeat the reapers? That Deus Ex Machnia was supposedly the only thing able to defeat the reapers.

Modifié par Dethead123, 24 mars 2012 - 05:52 .

[DemGeth]

This poor OP said he was done and left. he'll check back in a week and see a 10k page thread heh

[CronoDragoon]

DemGeth wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Hahahaha, obvious? The question you were asked was "Then what is it then?" Not "what is it to you then?". Now you're just digging yourself into a hole, but keep going. I'm genuinely interested in seeing where you want to take this.

You asked for her opinion on something. When you wrote college papers, did you preface every supporting paragraph with "in my opinion?"

lol what classes you take where anything is your opinion.  

So you are saying you have never wrote a paper with supporting arguments?

[aliengmr1]

Dethead123 wrote...
I don't want no bull**** fanfic about how Shepard was indoctrinated. I want to go up on the citadel blow the reapers the **** up, get off of it, go to Rannoch and enjoy a nice touching cutscene with my squad. Whether it just be all of us helping the reconstruction of Earth and other planets or seeing Shepard build a house for Tali. Or hell Renegade Shep and Garrus killing some mercs together while saying "Just like old times". I can do this with my head of course but dammit I want to see it in front of my eyes instead. (Or something different then the **** we got at least)

This guy ^

[Unit-Alpha]

CronoDragoon wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Hahahaha, obvious? The question you were asked was "Then what is it then?" Not "what is it to you then?". Now you're just digging yourself into a hole, but keep going. I'm genuinely interested in seeing where you want to take this.

You asked for her opinion on something. When you wrote college papers, did you preface every supporting paragraph with "in my opinion?"

lol what classes you take where anything is your opinion.  

So you are saying you have never wrote a paper with supporting arguments?

Obviously he never took a literature class.

[Grasich]

Unit-Alpha wrote...


You for serious? I take a business class where quite a bit is based on opinion of how to proceed in deals. I also took a science and technology class where it was entirely opinion.

And I'm a freaking hard science major.

I wish my comp-sci classes cared about my opinion. Unfortunately computers have this funny way of not giving a damn.

[Cyph3rX]

DemGeth wrote...

This poor OP said he was done and left. he'll check back in a week and see a 10k page thread heh

Think the coolest part is I have no idea how we got to the current line of dialogues in this thread. Guess I'll just chalk it up to .

Betting Bioware regrets putting that emoticon in now.

[Renoscott]

Dethead123 wrote...

Renoscott wrote...

Your going too clame down! Hell the hole "shepred was indoctrinated" was from the end of ME2. If the theroy is right, shepred was haveing a dream the hole time and just K.O.ed on the ground for a wile.

lol I'm calm bro. I just was using vulgarity to "zazz it up". Anyways so what if Shepard wakes up and it was all a dream? HE STILL HAS TO FACE THE REAPERS. If the whole point of the crucible is a trap in that theory then how is Shepard gonna defeat the reapers? That Deus Ex Machnia was supposedly the only thing able to defeat the reapers.

Not sure but seeing how the pplot is going the crusable is still a key weapon and that beam is still going there, we may still be going inside it on the final fight and use the weapon to shut down the reapers, but I still don't know.

[Jackal7713]

DemGeth wrote...

This poor OP said he was done and left. he'll check back in a week and see a 10k page thread heh

Opps.

[DemGeth]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Hahahaha, obvious? The question you were asked was "Then what is it then?" Not "what is it to you then?". Now you're just digging yourself into a hole, but keep going. I'm genuinely interested in seeing where you want to take this.

You asked for her opinion on something. When you wrote college papers, did you preface every supporting paragraph with "in my opinion?"

lol what classes you take where anything is your opinion.  

You for serious? I take a business class where quite a bit is based on opinion of how to proceed in deals. I also took a science and technology class where it was entirely opinion.

And I'm a freaking hard science major.

I'd get roasted for having opinions.  Looking over my courses I get to have opinions in another year or so without getting roasted.  (History)

[Aznable Char]

 Background: I sent Luc a private message asking him for a conversation over skype to talk about the current thread and the current crisis of confidence . I addressed him respectfully and wanted candidly to listen to his words and his grievences . I did so because I believed and still firmly believe that the core of REtake is one of respect and reason . I firmly believe that Retake is in the right and if we are in the right then we have no need to fear from objections or questions even from our own ranks . Thus , I engaged with him in honest and candid conversation and after hours of talk we hereby draft this joint statement for the encouragement of REtake , all of BSN , and for the firm hope that this spirit of SINCERE respect for each other spreads and continues. Thus our 6 points for our joint statement:

1. Instead of continuing on in a flame war and engaging in conversation that was going nowhere we, Luc0s and AznableChar instead sat down and had a decent human to human conversation.

2. We, Luc0s and AznableChar  both listened to each other's points we both argued passionately , and we both let each other have full course to be heard unlike the fast paced nature of the thread.

3. Through respectful and fruitful discourse we realized that we both prefer BioWare to release a FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending and that satisfied what we had come to expect from BioWare's past writing.

4. That we have both come to realize that part of the underlying frustration we all were having was due to the quick and swift negativity that can occur because of the intense pressures on the community. 

5. We, AznableChar and Luc0s, both reaffirm our ardent and unyielding support the wish for BioWare to release FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending, but we also need to realize that all the negativity going on on BSN we only provoke more negativity, resulting in people eventually just giving up and/or leaving the Retake movement, such as was the case with me, Luc0s and unquestionably several others.

6. Understanding all of these elements we have come to realize that the Retake movement is not necessarily a bad thing. The movement can and WILL yield positive results for both us, the fans and BioWare, the developers, as long as we stay positive, calm and civil.

7. We want to state that through civil conversation, Luc0s and AznableChar came to an understanding. We both realize that ultimately we all want the same thing. With this we  prove and reaffirm that it IS INDEED POSSIBLE for calm dialogue and mutual respect can change minds and hearts and ultimately gain a better understanding, both among each other and hopefully also between BioWare and us, the fans.

As a personal note for myself I want to thank Luc for being willing to talk to me . I thank everyone who attempted in good faith to listen to him and I can understand being swamped by so many messages at once that it was very difficult for him to answer questions and to respond to others trying to talk to him .

I wanted to demonstrate to people that behind everyone who asks a sincere question is NOT a traitor but a MAN OF THE LINE . Heck , a SHIP OF THE LINE . This is not a time to be depressed but a time to FIGHT both harder AND SMARTER .

I am not attempting to shame or act superior to anyone who tried to post in this thread ; I recognize all of you .
Despite my disappointments with some of the rabidness of the response , I sincerely understand it . We have been betrayed SO MUCH already . The ending betrayed us , certain review websites called us names , certain events forced other events that felt like betrayal . BUT THE MOVEMENT CONTINUES . WE HOLD THE LINE STILL . And I know that for so many people first reading this thread it seemed like another betrayal , but I was determined that TRUTH and RESPECT trump doubt and anger any day .

I want to applaud everyone for their energy even if it was a bit fervent . Keep it up , but like I said , don't just fight harder , fight smarter .

BioWare snatched defeat from the jaws of victory , let us NOT repeat their example .

Modifié par Aznable Char, 24 mars 2012 - 05:54 .

[eldertaco]

Luc0s wrote...

 Because this article has opened my eyes: http://www.pcgamer.c...-writers-think/ 


I've read that article 3 times and I've read really carefully what each developer had to say. Now I have to say that I agree with them, especially this part:

"But things like “cutscenes” and “endings” are completely authored by the developers, and the developers altering the authored content of a game after the fact has nothing to do with the systemic player-developer collaboration described above. "

I want to clarify, that I still absolutely HATE the ending of Mass Effect 3, but only now do I realize how silly it is that we demand that BioWare changes it. That does not mean that I think BioWare shouldn't change it. I think BioWare should make up their own mind and then THEY should decide what to do with the endings, NOT US.

So if BioWare wishes to change the endings for us, then I fully support them.
If BioWare doesn't want to change the endings but instead they choose to expand the current endings, I fully support them.
If BioWare decides to do nothing, I'll be hugely dissapoined, but I'll still fully support them.
They are within their right to do whatever they want with the narrative in their games and we players have no say over that.


If we players demanded a change within the gameplay, then I'd fully support that, because that is part of the interactive  relationship between player and developer. The developer creates an interactive product, we as the players interact with it and the result of that interactive relationship is gameplay. 


But is it fair and/or realistic for players to demand a new ending, especially when the ending is a non-interactive part of the game, a cut-scene that is part of the narrative, the story? Are we players within our right to demand changes in that?

Let me ask you this: Are we in our right to demand a new ending for Lord of The Rings? Is it fair if we demand a new ending for Harry Potter?


And before you come with the argument that games aren't the same as movies, I advice you to read my entire post again, until you understand that demanding a different ending in a game is the same as demanding a different ending for a movie. Yes, games are different, but I already explained why an ending or any cutscene within a game is not part of the interactive experience, it's not part of the interactive relationship between the player and developer. A cutscene is an artistic expression and in my opinion, art should not be changed because the viewer demands it. Art should only be changed if the artist decides that it should be changed.

 A thing to also keep in mind is movies of a similar
scale to mass effect often undergo test screening pre-release to gauge reaction.
Given the amount of dissatisfaction and/or confusion surrounding the ending, it
is hard not to believe that these issues would have been brought up after a
test screening (if mass effect was a movie) and dealt with. That is ultimately
the issue with the art argument, games are generally compared to movies or
books both of which have some form of critique pre-release. Maybe that is something that needs to be looked into by game developers, outside critique of work to ensure that it is consistent and makes sense.

[Unit-Alpha]

Grasich wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...


You for serious? I take a business class where quite a bit is based on opinion of how to proceed in deals. I also took a science and technology class where it was entirely opinion.

And I'm a freaking hard science major.

I wish my comp-sci classes cared about my opinion. Unfortunately computers have this funny way of not giving a damn.

Yeah, same. At least my professor is an absolute boss, so it more than makes up for it.

I should ask him his opinion on the endings; I'm pretty sure he got it.

Edit: Damn, can't spell or put together sentences anymore.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 05:57 .

[CronoDragoon]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Hahahaha, obvious? The question you were asked was "Then what is it then?" Not "what is it to you then?". Now you're just digging yourself into a hole, but keep going. I'm genuinely interested in seeing where you want to take this.

You asked for her opinion on something. When you wrote college papers, did you preface every supporting paragraph with "in my opinion?"

I'm a guy

But thanks for the support, either way.

Damn, heh. I always associate posters with their avatars. It's why I automatically distrust volus posters....

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 24 mars 2012 - 05:55 .

[Encarmine]

all of you little pawns who are now calling games art. please ask yourselves, were you calling them Art befor or after you had the 'idea' lanted in your head in some stupid counter argument born on IGN?

To the OP, hey nice attentiongrabbing headline, funny how your post failed to live up to the title.

Your validation by comparing Films to Games is FUBAR, total hogwash, you clearly dont know anything about the steps movies take.

You do understand, they only make movies that pass panels and get funding, they then go through screen testings to establish all are happy with a Blockbuster befor it goes out. Im talking about the big films, the hollywood money makers, the AAA standard.

Bioware did not do the same process when making their AAA game. This makees your comment irellivent and pointless.

Please change your attention seeking title. Your making youself look bad.

[Renoscott]

Cyph3rX wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

This poor OP said he was done and left. he'll check back in a week and see a 10k page thread heh

Think the coolest part is I have no idea how we got to the current line of dialogues in this thread. Guess I'll just chalk it up to .

Betting Bioware regrets putting that emoticon in now.

you mean its all SPAAAAAACE MAAAAAGIC!

[Denora]

As I stated in other forums about Games and Art,

Everyday traditional artists are asked to change their work by Critics, Galleries, and patrons. It's no different now, there are supporters of the work and those against it. Galleries' Critics (Actual Profession) will send back art and request changes before admitting quite often (if they don't down right dismiss the piece). In the real art world, professional artist don't make art for themselves as much as they do for their patrons. Patrons first is how it goes, like now with Mass Effect.

Now in response to OP,

I've carefully read the article which makes valid points, respectfully however I personally wish to stick to my guns with my opinion:
Games are an interactive experience, in which we the fans have helped develop throughout the years. What the ending provided was not what the fans wanted, nor was it what was promised. That is why I want either a new ending or further content for closure which is now under works (hopefully done well).

I am a fan of Mass Effect and a Fan of Bioware and I trust Bioware so don't get me wrong, I'm not against them at all.

Modifié par Denora, 24 mars 2012 - 05:55 .