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DemGeth wrote...
I'd get roasted for having opinions. Looking over my courses I get to have opinions in another year or so without getting roasted. (History)
CronoDragoon wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
CronoDragoon wrote...
Lugaidster wrote...
Hahahaha, obvious? The question you were asked was "Then what is it then?" Not "what is it to you then?". Now you're just digging yourself into a hole, but keep going. I'm genuinely interested in seeing where you want to take this.
You asked for her opinion on something. When you wrote college papers, did you preface every supporting paragraph with "in my opinion?"
I'm a guy
But thanks for the support, either way.
Damn, heh. I always associate posters with their avatars. It's why I can't automatically distrust volus posters....
Luc0s wrote...
Aznable Char wrote...
Background: I sent Luc a private message asking him for a conversation over skype to talk about the current thread and the current crisis of confidence . I addressed him respectfully and wanted candidly to listen to his words and his grievences . I did so because I believed and still firmly believe that the core of REtake is one of respect and reason . I firmly believe that Retake is in the right and if we are in the right then we have no need to fear from objections or questions even from our own ranks . Thus , I engaged with him in honest and candid conversation and after hours of talk we hereby draft this joint statement for the encouragement of REtake , all of BSN , and for the firm hope that this spirit of SINCERE respect for each other spreads and continues. Thus our 6 points for our joint statement:
1. Instead of continuing on in a flame war and engaging in conversation that was going nowhere we, Luc0s and AznableChar instead sat down and had a decent human to human conversation.
2. We, Luc0s and AznableChar both listened to each other's points we both argued passionately , and we both let each other have full course to be heard unlike the fast paced nature of the thread.
3. Through respectful and fruitful discourse we realized that we both prefer BioWare to release a FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending and that satisfied what we had come to expect from BioWare's past writing.
4. That we have both come to realize that part of the underlying frustration we all were having was due to the quick and swift negativity that can occur because of the intense pressures on the community.
5. We, AznableChar and Luc0s, both reaffirm our ardent and unyielding support the wish for BioWare to release FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending, but we also need to realize that all the negativity going on on BSN we only provoke more negativity, resulting in people eventually just giving up and/or leaving the Retake movement, such as was the case with me, Luc0s and unquestionably several others.
6. Understanding all of these elements we have come to realize that the Retake movement is not necessarily a bad thing. The movement can and WILL yield positive results for both us, the fans and BioWare, the developers, as long as we stay positive, calm and civil.
7. We want to state that through civil conversation, Luc0s and AznableChar came to an understanding. We both realize that ultimately we all want the same thing. With this we prove and reaffirm that it IS INDEED POSSIBLE for calm dialogue and mutual respect can change minds and hearts and ultimately gain a better understanding, both among each other and hopefully also between BioWare and us, the fans.
As a personal note for myself I want to thank Luc for being willing to talk to me . I thank everyone who attempted in good faith to listen to him and I can understand being swamped by so many messages at once that it was very difficult for him to answer questions and to respond to others trying to talk to him .
I wanted to demonstrate to people that behind everyone who asks a sincere question is NOT a traitor but a MAN OF THE LINE . Heck , a SHIP OF THE LINE . This is not a time to be depressed but a time to FIGHT both harder AND SMARTER .
I am not attempting to shame or act superior to anyone who tried to post in this thread ; I recognize all of you .
Despite my disappointments with some of the rabidness of the response , I sincerely understand it . We have been betrayed SO MUCH already . The ending betrayed us , certain review websites called us names , certain events forced other events that felt like betrayal . BUT THE MOVEMENT CONTINUES . WE HOLD THE LINE STILL . And I know that for so many people first reading this thread it seemed like another betrayal , but I was determined that TRUTH and RESPECT trump doubt and anger any day .
I want to applaud everyone for their energy even if it was a bit fervent . Keep it up , but like I said , don't just fight harder , fight smarter .
BioWare snatched defeat from the jaws of victory , let us NOT repeat their example .
Yeah, well, your formatting is a bit f*cked up pall, but indeed, I want to confirm this what Aznable Char said here is legit. :happy:
Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 24 mars 2012 - 05:58 .
Grasich wrote...
OP has returned!
Modifié par aliengmr1, 24 mars 2012 - 06:00 .
Luc0s wrote...
Because this article has opened my eyes: http://www.pcgamer.c...-writers-think/
I've read that article 3 times and I've read really carefully what each developer had to say. Now I have to say that I agree with them, especially this part:"But things like “cutscenes” and “endings” are completely authored by the developers, and the developers altering the authored content of a game after the fact has nothing to do with the systemic player-developer collaboration described above. "
I want to clarify, that I still absolutely HATE the ending of Mass Effect 3, but only now do I realize how silly it is that we demand that BioWare changes it. That does not mean that I think BioWare shouldn't change it. I think BioWare should make up their own mind and then THEY should decide what to do with the endings, NOT US.
So if BioWare wishes to change the endings for us, then I fully support them.
If BioWare doesn't want to change the endings but instead they choose to expand the current endings, I fully support them.
If BioWare decides to do nothing, I'll be hugely dissapoined, but I'll still fully support them.
They are within their right to do whatever they want with the narrative in their games and we players have no say over that.
If we players demanded a change within the gameplay, then I'd fully support that, because that is part of the interactive relationship between player and developer. The developer creates an interactive product, we as the players interact with it and the result of that interactive relationship is gameplay.
But is it fair and/or realistic for players to demand a new ending, especially when the ending is a non-interactive part of the game, a cut-scene that is part of the narrative, the story? Are we players within our right to demand changes in that?
Let me ask you this: Are we in our right to demand a new ending for Lord of The Rings? Is it fair if we demand a new ending for Harry Potter?
And before you come with the argument that games aren't the same as movies, I advice you to read my entire post again, until you understand that demanding a different ending in a game is the same as demanding a different ending for a movie. Yes, games are different, but I already explained why an ending or any cutscene within a game is not part of the interactive experience, it's not part of the interactive relationship between the player and developer. A cutscene is an artistic expression and in my opinion, art should not be changed because the viewer demands it. Art should only be changed if the artist decides that it should be changed.
DemGeth wrote...
ghostbusters101 wrote...
I'm with you on this.Unit-Alpha wrote...
Lugaidster wrote...
It's not my definition, it is the accepted definition on the english (and many other) language. If you don't like the english language definition for the word, why use the word in the first place. The game is not fine art, I agree on that, but so what. Not everyone is a fine artist, I'm not comparing Bioware to Da vinci, but the Da vinci types aren't the only types of artists.
I just feel that the whole discussion on art degenerated to the point where everyone is claiming that their definition of art is *the* definition of art. This game is art as we can regard it as the result of creative work following aesthetic principles (how much is up for discussion), the qualitative aspect is entirely subjective. This may well be crappy art for many, but it's still art and comparing it to a scribble on a bathroom stall is as silly as comparing it to the Mona Lisa. This stuff isn't black or white.
Sorry, but claiming that art has an objective definition is patently untrue. The term is incredibly subjective.
And we aren't even talking about content here.
BioWare is not in any way a Divinci or a Claude Monet. They didn’t sell to the masses. They didn’t have a marketing dept. Bio Ware is Commercial only.
Ahhhhhh so the catering to the wealthy is different than catering to the masses.....it's artistic?
Grasich wrote...
OP has returned!
The guy that brought the contract to the discussion did.Unit-Alpha wrote...
Projecting again. I didn't say it was violated.
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Again, implied. Lord, do you need every single one of my thoughts spelled out in terms that a three year old can digest or something?
I still think we are all getting in the mindset that any game is art. That's simply not true. No, DAO is not art. There are very few that actually are.
Modifié par Lugaidster, 24 mars 2012 - 06:01 .
aliengmr1 wrote...
Dead Reapers = art
Unit-Alpha wrote...
DemGeth wrote...
I'd get roasted for having opinions. Looking over my courses I get to have opinions in another year or so without getting roasted. (History)
Seriously? I wrote dozens of lengthy papers in high school about history topics such as the Falklands War, and we were supposed to come up with theories on our own and whatnot.
Modifié par DemGeth, 24 mars 2012 - 06:00 .
Modifié par CronoDragoon, 24 mars 2012 - 06:01 .
Lugaidster wrote...
Unit-Alpha wrote...
Projecting again. I didn't say it was violated.
Also, for your other post:
Again, implied. Lord, do you need every single one of my thoughts spelled out in terms that a three year old can digest or something?The guy that brought the contract to the discussion did.Unit-Alpha wrote...
Projecting again. I didn't say it was violated.Unit-Alpha wrote...
Again, implied. Lord, do you need every single one of my thoughts spelled out in terms that a three year old can digest or something?
Nope, but you were implying that you're opinion was fact. Why argue the game isn't art in general terms if it's just you opinion? Anyone can go back and read the comments, you're just digging yourself into the same hole Bioware is going to dig themselves the day they stick by their artistic integrity. Anyway, let's make a small example of your own words:I still think we are all getting in the mindset that any game is art. That's simply not true. No, DAO is not art. There are very few that actually are.
That *implies* that what you're saying is fact (look at the bolded part), not opinion. From there it can be deduced that you believe that DAO is not *objectively* art, and in consequence, ME3 isn't either. If the deduction is incorrect according to your views, then you made a mistake in the statement.
After a while you state that art doesn't have an objective definition, and went on to say that you made it obvious that your statement only reflected your opinion. That's a clear contradiction of the above.
Here's a shovel if you want to continue down that path.
Unit-Alpha wrote...
aliengmr1 wrote...
Dead Reapers = art
I like the idea of the beach scene with the Reapers visible on the horizon
Unit-Alpha wrote...
aliengmr1 wrote...
Dead Reapers = art
I like the idea of the beach scene with the Reapers visible on the horizon
Dethead123 wrote...
So question. Am I like the only one that wants the endings to be rectified so I can get it on with Garrus' sister? I haven't seen anyone want the endings rectified for that reason.
CronoDragoon wrote...
On the art topic, I have a weird view on art that tends to mimic Nietzsche's because I'm a total fanboy, so in my view whether something is art or not depends entirely on its intent and not the medium: if it is a work that attempts to comment on life in some way then I consider it art. I'm too tired to write a philosophy paper on whether or not games are art (philosophy major, it's what I do) but I would have to lean towards yes.
CronoDragoon wrote...
On the art topic, I have a weird view on art that tends to mimic Nietzsche's because I'm a total fanboy, so in my view whether something is art or not depends entirely on its intent and not the medium: if it is a work that attempts to comment on life in some way then I consider it art. I'm too tired to write a philosophy paper on whether or not games are art (philosophy major, it's what I do) but I would have to lean towards yes.
Edit: its more complicated than that, i'm way too sleepy, maybe ill post about it tomorrow.
Baronesa wrote...
uhmm What is your opinion on Mass Effect Deception?
BioWare and Del Rey Books are changing the book to accommodate costumer's feedback.
Why is it ok for BioWare to do that on the 4th Book of Mass Effect, but not good for ME3 endings?
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