1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Lugaidster]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Projecting again. I didn't say it was violated.

Also, for your other post:

Again, implied. Lord, do you need every single one of my thoughts spelled out in terms that a three year old can digest or something?

Unit-Alpha wrote... 


Projecting again. I didn't say it was violated. 

  The guy that brought the contract to the discussion did. 

Unit-Alpha wrote... 


Again, implied. Lord, do you need every single one of my thoughts spelled out in terms that a three year old can digest or something?

 


Nope, but you were implying that you're opinion was fact. Why argue the game isn't art in general terms if it's just you opinion? Anyone can go back and read the comments, you're just digging yourself into the same hole Bioware is going to dig themselves the day they stick by their artistic integrity. Anyway, let's make a small example of your own words:

I still think we are all getting in the mindset that any game is art. That's simply not true. No, DAO is not art. There are very few that actually are.

That *implies* that what you're saying is fact (look at the bolded part), not opinion. From there it can be deduced that you believe that DAO is not *objectively* art, and in consequence, ME3 isn't either. If the deduction is incorrect according to your views, then you made a mistake in the statement.

After a while you state that art doesn't have an objective definition, and went on to say that you made it obvious that your statement only reflected your opinion. That's a clear contradiction of the above.

Here's a shovel if you want to continue down that path.

No, wrong again. You inferred it from nothing. I didn't imply anything beyond the fact it was subjective. Just you projecting. I can't help that. I'm pretty sure I would know what I was saying and you don't. Ergo, my authority on the matter trumps yours.

So now your argument is I'm right and you're wrong... Ok, let's leave it at that.

[Unit-Alpha]

DemGeth wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

I'd get roasted for having opinions.  Looking over my courses I get to have opinions in another year or so without getting roasted.  (History)

Seriously? I wrote dozens of lengthy papers in high school about history topics such as the Falklands War, and we were supposed to come up with theories on our own and whatnot.

Mmm well in a way.  But much more subtle.  My school focuses alot on Bias in hisotry, so inputting your own bias is not so well recieved.  


Bascially you better know what the f---- you are talking about becuase they do and if you are wrong you get you --- handed to you heh

Well, obviously we had to back up theory with facts. Though I did take this international course (IB) so maybe it's different for us.

[Dethead123]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

So question. Am I like the only one that wants the endings to be rectified so I can get it on with Garrus' sister? I haven't seen anyone want the endings rectified for that reason.

I'm totally behind that idea...

if you know what I mean.

[Unit-Alpha]

Lugaidster wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

No, wrong again. You inferred it from nothing. I didn't imply anything beyond the fact it was subjective. Just you projecting. I can't help that. I'm pretty sure I would know what I was saying and you don't. Ergo, my authority on the matter trumps yours.

So now your argument is I'm right and you're wrong... Ok, let's leave it at that.

Lord, wrong *again.*

Seriously, did you not even read anything I said? I set it out plainly and you still can't comprehend it. I seriously do not understand how this is possible.

[Troffeltjie]

http://www.forbes.co...-mass-effect-3/  
 
"That opinion [as a game designer] really pales in comparison to the opinions of millions of people that actually play it under the intended conditions, buying the game, wanting to enjoy it as a piece of entertainment, and then providing their honest feedback." Casey Hudson

Well, I guess that makes the whole "arty farty" argument moot.

[Aznable Char]

Luc0s wrote...

Aznable Char wrote...

 Background: I sent Luc a private message asking him for a conversation over skype to talk about the current thread and the current crisis of confidence . I addressed him respectfully and wanted candidly to listen to his words and his grievences . I did so because I believed and still firmly believe that the core of REtake is one of respect and reason . I firmly believe that Retake is in the right and if we are in the right then we have no need to fear from objections or questions even from our own ranks . Thus , I engaged with him in honest and candid conversation and after hours of talk we hereby draft this joint statement for the encouragement of REtake , all of BSN , and for the firm hope that this spirit of SINCERE respect for each other spreads and continues. Thus our 6 points for our joint statement:

1. Instead of continuing on in a flame war and engaging in conversation that was going nowhere we, Luc0s and AznableChar instead sat down and had a decent human to human conversation.

2. We, Luc0s and AznableChar  both listened to each other's points we both argued passionately , and we both let each other have full course to be heard unlike the fast paced nature of the thread.

3. Through respectful and fruitful discourse we realized that we both prefer BioWare to release a FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending and that satisfied what we had come to expect from BioWare's past writing.

4. That we have both come to realize that part of the underlying frustration we all were having was due to the quick and swift negativity that can occur because of the intense pressures on the community. 

5. We, AznableChar and Luc0s, both reaffirm our ardent and unyielding support the wish for BioWare to release FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending, but we also need to realize that all the negativity going on on BSN we only provoke more negativity, resulting in people eventually just giving up and/or leaving the Retake movement, such as was the case with me, Luc0s and unquestionably several others.

6. Understanding all of these elements we have come to realize that the Retake movement is not necessarily a bad thing. The movement can and WILL yield positive results for both us, the fans and BioWare, the developers, as long as we stay positive, calm and civil.

7. We want to state that through civil conversation, Luc0s and AznableChar came to an understanding. We both realize that ultimately we all want the same thing. With this we  prove and reaffirm that it IS INDEED POSSIBLE for calm dialogue and mutual respect can change minds and hearts and ultimately gain a better understanding, both among each other and hopefully also between BioWare and us, the fans.

As a personal note for myself I want to thank Luc for being willing to talk to me . I thank everyone who attempted in good faith to listen to him and I can understand being swamped by so many messages at once that it was very difficult for him to answer questions and to respond to others trying to talk to him .

I wanted to demonstrate to people that behind everyone who asks a sincere question is NOT a traitor but a MAN OF THE LINE . Heck , a SHIP OF THE LINE . This is not a time to be depressed but a time to FIGHT both harder AND SMARTER .

I am not attempting to shame or act superior to anyone who tried to post in this thread ; I recognize all of you .
Despite my disappointments with some of the rabidness of the response , I sincerely understand it . We have been betrayed SO MUCH already . The ending betrayed us , certain review websites called us names , certain events forced other events that felt like betrayal . BUT THE MOVEMENT CONTINUES . WE HOLD THE LINE STILL . And I know that for so many people first reading this thread it seemed like another betrayal , but I was determined that TRUTH and RESPECT trump doubt and anger any day .

I want to applaud everyone for their energy even if it was a bit fervent . Keep it up , but like I said , don't just fight harder , fight smarter .

BioWare snatched defeat from the jaws of victory , let us NOT repeat their example .

Yeah, well, your formatting is a bit f*cked up pall, but indeed, I want to confirm this what Aznable Char said here is legit. :happy:

Wanted to reply this since this thread moves like summer lightning (and I fixed the formatting as well)

[Grasich]

Dethead123 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

So question. Am I like the only one that wants the endings to be rectified so I can get it on with Garrus' sister? I haven't seen anyone want the endings rectified for that reason.

I'm totally behind that idea...

if you know what I mean.

I lol'd

[Cyph3rX]

DarthSyphilis59 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

uhmm What is your opinion on Mass Effect Deception?

BioWare and Del Rey Books are changing the book to accommodate costumer's feedback.

Why is it ok for BioWare to do that on the 4th Book of Mass Effect, but not good for ME3 endings?

This is a dangerous precedent! Producers should not listen to their consumers, that's crazy talk. Producers should do whatever the hell they want, promise whatever the hell we want, and consumer should never question anything. That's what a free market is all about. Corporations ****ting on the little guys.

Guess they didn't like the fact that one of the main antagonists of their game was so obsessed with eating cereal.

[CronoDragoon]

Lugaidster wrote...

Nope, but you were implying that your opinion was fact. Why argue the game isn't art in general terms if it's just you opinion? 

Because this is exactly what higher education institutions train you to do when engaged in debate. You present your opinion as fact so that it 1. is a tighter paper/argument 2. don't insult the listener by assuming he doesn't know its your opinion.

[Unit-Alpha]

Dethead123 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Dethead123 wrote...

So question. Am I like the only one that wants the endings to be rectified so I can get it on with Garrus' sister? I haven't seen anyone want the endings rectified for that reason.

I'm totally behind that idea...

if you know what I mean.

Hell yeah!

[DemGeth]

Cyph3rX wrote...

DarthSyphilis59 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

uhmm What is your opinion on Mass Effect Deception?

BioWare and Del Rey Books are changing the book to accommodate costumer's feedback.

Why is it ok for BioWare to do that on the 4th Book of Mass Effect, but not good for ME3 endings?

This is a dangerous precedent! Producers should not listen to their consumers, that's crazy talk. Producers should do whatever the hell they want, promise whatever the hell we want, and consumer should never question anything. That's what a free market is all about. Corporations ****ting on the little guys.

Guess they didn't like the fact that one of the main antagonists of their game was so obsessed with eating cereal.

Honey nut?

[Jackal7713]

Aznable Char wrote...

 Background: I sent Luc a private message asking him for a conversation over skype to talk about the current thread and the current crisis of confidence . I addressed him respectfully and wanted candidly to listen to his words and his grievences . I did so because I believed and still firmly believe that the core of REtake is one of respect and reason . I firmly believe that Retake is in the right and if we are in the right then we have no need to fear from objections or questions even from our own ranks . Thus , I engaged with him in honest and candid conversation and after hours of talk we hereby draft this joint statement for the encouragement of REtake , all of BSN , and for the firm hope that this spirit of SINCERE respect for each other spreads and continues. Thus our 6 points for our joint statement:

1. Instead of continuing on in a flame war and engaging in conversation that was going nowhere we, Luc0s and AznableChar instead sat down and had a decent human to human conversation.

2. We, Luc0s and AznableChar  both listened to each other's points we both argued passionately , and we both let each other have full course to be heard unlike the fast paced nature of the thread.

3. Through respectful and fruitful discourse we realized that we both prefer BioWare to release a FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending and that satisfied what we had come to expect from BioWare's past writing.

4. That we have both come to realize that part of the underlying frustration we all were having was due to the quick and swift negativity that can occur because of the intense pressures on the community. 

5. We, AznableChar and Luc0s, both reaffirm our ardent and unyielding support the wish for BioWare to release FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending, but we also need to realize that all the negativity going on on BSN we only provoke more negativity, resulting in people eventually just giving up and/or leaving the Retake movement, such as was the case with me, Luc0s and unquestionably several others.

6. Understanding all of these elements we have come to realize that the Retake movement is not necessarily a bad thing. The movement can and WILL yield positive results for both us, the fans and BioWare, the developers, as long as we stay positive, calm and civil.

7. We want to state that through civil conversation, Luc0s and AznableChar came to an understanding. We both realize that ultimately we all want the same thing. With this we  prove and reaffirm that it IS INDEED POSSIBLE for calm dialogue and mutual respect can change minds and hearts and ultimately gain a better understanding, both among each other and hopefully also between BioWare and us, the fans.

As a personal note for myself I want to thank Luc for being willing to talk to me . I thank everyone who attempted in good faith to listen to him and I can understand being swamped by so many messages at once that it was very difficult for him to answer questions and to respond to others trying to talk to him .

I wanted to demonstrate to people that behind everyone who asks a sincere question is NOT a traitor but a MAN OF THE LINE . Heck , a SHIP OF THE LINE . This is not a time to be depressed but a time to FIGHT both harder AND SMARTER .

I am not attempting to shame or act superior to anyone who tried to post in this thread ; I recognize all of you .
Despite my disappointments with some of the rabidness of the response , I sincerely understand it . We have been betrayed SO MUCH already . The ending betrayed us , certain review websites called us names , certain events forced other events that felt like betrayal . BUT THE MOVEMENT CONTINUES . WE HOLD THE LINE STILL . And I know that for so many people first reading this thread it seemed like another betrayal , but I was determined that TRUTH and RESPECT trump doubt and anger any day .

I want to applaud everyone for their energy even if it was a bit fervent . Keep it up , but like I said , don't just fight harder , fight smarter .

BioWare snatched defeat from the jaws of victory , let us NOT repeat their example .

With all due respect you put the movement together. However, I think if you want to be a leader you don't bail. If you do, you don't write a post about it hurting the people that feel like you used to.

Personally I don't have hard feelings about anyone leaving.  This is just my opinion.

[Renoscott]

Jackal7713 wrote...

Aznable Char wrote...

 Background: I sent Luc a private message asking him for a conversation over skype to talk about the current thread and the current crisis of confidence . I addressed him respectfully and wanted candidly to listen to his words and his grievences . I did so because I believed and still firmly believe that the core of REtake is one of respect and reason . I firmly believe that Retake is in the right and if we are in the right then we have no need to fear from objections or questions even from our own ranks . Thus , I engaged with him in honest and candid conversation and after hours of talk we hereby draft this joint statement for the encouragement of REtake , all of BSN , and for the firm hope that this spirit of SINCERE respect for each other spreads and continues. Thus our 6 points for our joint statement:

1. Instead of continuing on in a flame war and engaging in conversation that was going nowhere we, Luc0s and AznableChar instead sat down and had a decent human to human conversation.

2. We, Luc0s and AznableChar  both listened to each other's points we both argued passionately , and we both let each other have full course to be heard unlike the fast paced nature of the thread.

3. Through respectful and fruitful discourse we realized that we both prefer BioWare to release a FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending and that satisfied what we had come to expect from BioWare's past writing.

4. That we have both come to realize that part of the underlying frustration we all were having was due to the quick and swift negativity that can occur because of the intense pressures on the community. 

5. We, AznableChar and Luc0s, both reaffirm our ardent and unyielding support the wish for BioWare to release FREE and decent DLC that addresses the ending, but we also need to realize that all the negativity going on on BSN we only provoke more negativity, resulting in people eventually just giving up and/or leaving the Retake movement, such as was the case with me, Luc0s and unquestionably several others.

6. Understanding all of these elements we have come to realize that the Retake movement is not necessarily a bad thing. The movement can and WILL yield positive results for both us, the fans and BioWare, the developers, as long as we stay positive, calm and civil.

7. We want to state that through civil conversation, Luc0s and AznableChar came to an understanding. We both realize that ultimately we all want the same thing. With this we  prove and reaffirm that it IS INDEED POSSIBLE for calm dialogue and mutual respect can change minds and hearts and ultimately gain a better understanding, both among each other and hopefully also between BioWare and us, the fans.

As a personal note for myself I want to thank Luc for being willing to talk to me . I thank everyone who attempted in good faith to listen to him and I can understand being swamped by so many messages at once that it was very difficult for him to answer questions and to respond to others trying to talk to him .

I wanted to demonstrate to people that behind everyone who asks a sincere question is NOT a traitor but a MAN OF THE LINE . Heck , a SHIP OF THE LINE . This is not a time to be depressed but a time to FIGHT both harder AND SMARTER .

I am not attempting to shame or act superior to anyone who tried to post in this thread ; I recognize all of you .
Despite my disappointments with some of the rabidness of the response , I sincerely understand it . We have been betrayed SO MUCH already . The ending betrayed us , certain review websites called us names , certain events forced other events that felt like betrayal . BUT THE MOVEMENT CONTINUES . WE HOLD THE LINE STILL . And I know that for so many people first reading this thread it seemed like another betrayal , but I was determined that TRUTH and RESPECT trump doubt and anger any day .

I want to applaud everyone for their energy even if it was a bit fervent . Keep it up , but like I said , don't just fight harder , fight smarter .

BioWare snatched defeat from the jaws of victory , let us NOT repeat their example .

With all due respect you put the movement together. However, I think if you want to be a leader you don't bail. If you do, you don't write a post about it hurting the people that feel like you used to.

Personally I don't have hard feelings about anyone leaving.  This is just my opinion.

Thats the idea behind the REtake movment and Bioware alredey knows of the fans responce to the ending.

[xxskyshadowxx]

Troffeltjie wrote...

http://www.forbes.co...-mass-effect-3/  
 
"That opinion [as a game designer] really pales in comparison to the opinions of millions of people that actually play it under the intended conditions, buying the game, wanting to enjoy it as a piece of entertainment, and then providing their honest feedback." Casey Hudson

Well, I guess that makes the whole "arty farty" argument moot.

Gotta love him for plugging multiplayer in that response.

[Cyph3rX]

DemGeth wrote...

Cyph3rX wrote...

DarthSyphilis59 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

uhmm What is your opinion on Mass Effect Deception?

BioWare and Del Rey Books are changing the book to accommodate costumer's feedback.

Why is it ok for BioWare to do that on the 4th Book of Mass Effect, but not good for ME3 endings?

This is a dangerous precedent! Producers should not listen to their consumers, that's crazy talk. Producers should do whatever the hell they want, promise whatever the hell we want, and consumer should never question anything. That's what a free market is all about. Corporations ****ting on the little guys.

Guess they didn't like the fact that one of the main antagonists of their game was so obsessed with eating cereal.

Honey nut?

Going to have to ask Dietz on that one, I only read the parody summary, which according to those who actually read the book was about 99% spot on. It was pretty funny though.

[Lugaidster]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Lord, wrong *again.*

Seriously, did you not even read anything I said? I set it out plainly and you still can't comprehend it. I seriously do not understand how this is possible.

At least I attempted to point out your the mistake in your message where you fail to convey by implication that art is subjective. You said "It's simply not true". The intention of that sentence is to state fact not opinion. But ok, let's hear your side, at the very least, try to state how is my interpretation of what you said wrong.

[Unit-Alpha]

DemGeth wrote...

Cyph3rX wrote...

DarthSyphilis59 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

uhmm What is your opinion on Mass Effect Deception?

BioWare and Del Rey Books are changing the book to accommodate costumer's feedback.

Why is it ok for BioWare to do that on the 4th Book of Mass Effect, but not good for ME3 endings?

This is a dangerous precedent! Producers should not listen to their consumers, that's crazy talk. Producers should do whatever the hell they want, promise whatever the hell we want, and consumer should never question anything. That's what a free market is all about. Corporations ****ting on the little guys.

Guess they didn't like the fact that one of the main antagonists of their game was so obsessed with eating cereal.

Honey nut?

Probably Special K. Harby could lose a few pounds.

[FemmeShep]

Since we are having a really civil/intelligent discussion about artistic integrity, let me pitch a scenario:

http://geek.pikimal....t-name-release/

I believe the above is true. I have my reasons beyond just this article, but this is what I've come to believe. So the scenario is this: two people decided to write the ending themselves, and didn't let anyone else on the writing staff to have any input or allow the ending to have peer review. Despite the fact that the entire game/series always had writing put under the scrutiny/review of the entire writing team.

Not saying you have to believe this. But let's just use it as a hypothetical situation.

Do you guys think the artistic integrity argument still holds weight in this scenario? What is really integrity about two people deciding to break away from the team to finish the ending without their input? That the entire series was ended both for the fans and the writers by two people that had their own idea of how they wanted to end it even if it might not have been a good idea. Even if it meant breaking the companies tried and true formula of collaboration. 

Is that still integrity? If this was true, would those that are arguing against the ending being changed, have their opinion change?

Modifié par FemmeShep, 24 mars 2012 - 06:14 .

[Jackal7713]

Renoscott wrote...

jackal1377
With all due respect you put the movement together. However, I think if you want to be a leader you don't bail. If you do, you don't write a post about it hurting the people that feel like you used to.

Personally I don't have hard feelings about anyone leaving.  This is just my opinion.

Thats the idea behind the REtake movment and Bioware alredey knows of the fans responce to the ending.

Ren could you clarify please. Its 1 am and I'm a 12 pack to the wind atm. 

TY

Modifié par Jackal7713, 24 mars 2012 - 06:14 .

[XTR3M3]

I don't think releasing alternate endings would be a bad precedent. The "slippery slope" argument people use to try and get out of something never seems to occur. Sure, other gamers might demand stuff of both BioWare and other companies in the future but they are doing it now already without it actually happening. I do think it should be BioWare's choice whether or not they do release an alternate ending. Either choice they make will have consequences. They just need to decide which set of consequences they feel will be best for the company.

Modifié par XTR3M3, 24 mars 2012 - 06:11 .

[Lugaidster]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Nope, but you were implying that your opinion was fact. Why argue the game isn't art in general terms if it's just you opinion? 

Because this is exactly what higher education institutions train you to do when engaged in debate. You present your opinion as fact so that it 1. is a tighter paper/argument 2. don't insult the listener by assuming he doesn't know its your opinion.

I agree, but that's just intent. The argument must stand on itself in the end. Which is why you have to back it up. He stated opinion as fact and later claimed it was opinion, thus disproving anything in between that inteded to be a fact.

[Unit-Alpha]

Lugaidster wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Lord, wrong *again.*

Seriously, did you not even read anything I said? I set it out plainly and you still can't comprehend it. I seriously do not understand how this is possible.

At least I attempted to point out your the mistake in your message where you fail to convey by implication that art is subjective. You said "It's simply not true". The intention of that sentence is to state fact not opinion. But ok, let's hear your side, at the very least, try to state how is my interpretation of what you said wrong.

You interpreted my statements as objective statements. They were subjective. That is literally all there is to it. I used descriptors like "simply" because it conveyed how strongly I felt. That is all.

The definition of art is subjective. Therefore, art is subjective. That is what I have been saying this entire time.

The only thing I was protesting was the use of both the terms art *and* consumer good to describe it, when the stated implications of each conflicted. That was all.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 06:15 .

[Grasich]

FemmeShep wrote...

Since we are having really civil/intelligent discussion about artistic integrity, let me pitch a scenario:

http://geek.pikimal....t-name-release/

I believe the above is true. I have my reasons beyond just this article, but this is what I've come to believe. So the scenario is this: two people decided to write the ending themselves, and didn't let anyone else on the writing staff to have any input or allow the ending to have peer review. Despite the fact that the entire game/series always had writing put under the scrutiny/review of the entire team.

Not saying you have to believe this. Let's just use it as a hypothetical situation.

Do you guys think the artistic integrity argument still holds weight? What is really integrity about two people deciding to break away from the team to finish the ending without their input? That the entire series was both ended for the fans and the writers by two people that had their own idea of how they wanted to end even if it might not have been a good idea.

Is that still integrity? If this was true, would those that are arguing against the ending being changed, have their opinion change?

I've seen that, and I'm with you. It really makes a lot of sense.

Assuming it is true: Well, first off I don't think the artistic integrity argument really holds any water even if that isn't true. If it IS though, then even more so, they need to get the other writers involved.

[Unit-Alpha]

FemmeShep wrote...

Since we are having a really civil/intelligent discussion about artistic integrity, let me pitch a scenario:

http://geek.pikimal....t-name-release/

I believe the above is true. I have my reasons beyond just this article, but this is what I've come to believe. So the scenario is this: two people decided to write the ending themselves, and didn't let anyone else on the writing staff to have any input or allow the ending to have peer review. Despite the fact that the entire game/series always had writing put under the scrutiny/review of the entire writing team.

Not saying you have to believe this. But let's just use it as a hypothetical situation.

Do you guys think the artistic integrity argument still holds weight in this scenario? What is really integrity about two people deciding to break away from the team to finish the ending without their input? That the entire series was ended both for the fans and the writers by two people that had their own idea of how they wanted to end it even if it might not have been a good idea.

Is that still integrity? If this was true, would those that are arguing against the ending being changed, have their opinion change?

It was confirmed not to be Patrick by Stanley, but I only trust him as far as I can throw him.

[Cyph3rX]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

Cyph3rX wrote...

DarthSyphilis59 wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

uhmm What is your opinion on Mass Effect Deception?

BioWare and Del Rey Books are changing the book to accommodate costumer's feedback.

Why is it ok for BioWare to do that on the 4th Book of Mass Effect, but not good for ME3 endings?

This is a dangerous precedent! Producers should not listen to their consumers, that's crazy talk. Producers should do whatever the hell they want, promise whatever the hell we want, and consumer should never question anything. That's what a free market is all about. Corporations ****ting on the little guys.

Guess they didn't like the fact that one of the main antagonists of their game was so obsessed with eating cereal.

Honey nut?

Probably Special K. Harby could lose a few pounds.

Was Kai Leng, but I lol'd anyway trying to picture a giant squid ship with a spoon eating a bowl of that stuff.

/grabs box
ASSUMING CONTROL OF THIS FORM
/looks at fiber content
YOU WILL KNOW PAIN SHEPARD