1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Pottumuusi]

Luc0s wrote...

SupR G wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

Are movies art? If you answer is "yes" than you should also understand why the non-interactive parts of video-games are art.

People change movies by rebooting them or remaking them. Filmmakers like George Lucas change entire scenes from movies solely on his own discretion and at the request of nobody. Musicians constantly remix their music or other people's music, or change lyrics to include new artists. Books get revisions. Screenwriters write screenplays that are re-written by two or three other screenwriters. I can go on and on, but just because something is art doesn't mean that it's final. Whoever owns the peice, being a writer, photographer, painter, musician or whatever can change this or make it free for someone else to change at any time if they want. People rallied, asked for a new ending, Bioware listened and decided to change it. They could have said no, but they didn't. They actually care what their fans want instead of maintaining their own "artistic vision" if we want to call it that.

You say you support this decision, yet you argue against it? I think you're just proving you don't really know what you want or what this is all about really.

You obviously don't understand. Maybe you should read my posts again.


Yes, movies are remade, sometimes even changed. Books get revisions, I get that. Art can and will be changed, I get all that. But all that happens on the merit of the artists themselves.


If they (the artist) decide that they want to change their art, they are free to do so. But we have no right to demand a change within art. To demand that an artist changes his art is silly to say the least. We may voice our displeasure. We may decide not to buy future products of the artist. We may even suggest the artist to change his art. but we cannot DEMAND the artist to change his art.

So it's a semantics issue? Well lets just say that we REALLY want a better ending.

[Vhalkyrie]

I'm a consumer, and I'll vote with my wallet. They already got my money for the game. If pre release game reviews had been halfway honest, I probably wouldn't have preordered. They can keep this 'artistic' ending if they want, I just won't buy any DLCs.

For the record, I've never considered myself a "member" of Retake.  I'm independent.  After ME2, I wanted to take the Normandy pirate like Jack suggested!

Modifié par Vhalkyrie, 24 mars 2012 - 12:10 .

[avmf8]

To use mvoies as an example what would happen if Lord of the rings was sold as a 4 hour movie when it was really just a 2 hour movie? I don't remember if the movie was 3 or 4 hours I seen it a long time ago.

For me I bought the game bassed on them saying it had no Lost A B or C ending. When they said that they knew for a fact it did have a Lost A B or C ending. They knew and I bought i based on there lies. Do I have a right to ask them to change the ending? no Do I have a right to ask for my money back because they lied? yes.

Considering Bioware will not refund money to the people who bought on there lies then they need to supply the ending they said the game would have. I would not have been so mad at Bioware if they simply gave me my money back. You don't flat out lie on a product the customer cannot return.

[thedancingdruid]

@Hexley UK exactly. If I wasn't absolutely passionately in love with the Mass Effect universe the ending might not bother me as much.

[FarGears]

<---still holding the line.

[Icesong]

Our demands aren't going to magically force them to change the ending. It's ultimately up to them and always has been. And if they don't change it, no I'm not just gonna nod my head and support them, that's nonsense. Yeah they're within they're right but so what? I mean really, think about what you're saying. So what? I play these games for their storytelling ability and if they've shown they're bad at it I'm not gonna just support them because it's their right.

Modifié par Icesong, 24 mars 2012 - 12:09 .

[GigaTheToast]

Someone isn't very quick to understand that Mass Effect's story is as much a part of gameplay as it's combat, as such it can be broken and require fixing.

[xdognatex]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

'k, bye!

this

[Unit-Alpha]

Tazzmission wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

says who you?


get over yourself because i would love some evidence to back up your claim like a legislation that says such a thing

As is obvious by your grammar, I don't think you have the slightest clue what the reader-writer contract is.

says the guy who believes bioware false advertises a product

tell me again mr smarty how did bioware falsley advertise the product that THEY not you THEY made?

I appreciate you acknowledging my intellectual superiority.

And your logic makes no sense. They blantantly lied in the statements. That is, by definition, false advertising.

Also, please quote where I said Bioware advertised falsely.

You are projecting so hard I could point you at a wall and call you a Powerpoint projector.

[ediskrad327]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

'k, bye!

[The Night Mammoth]

Tazzmission wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

says who you?


get over yourself because i would love some evidence to back up your claim like a legislation that says such a thing

As is obvious by your grammar, I don't think you have the slightest clue what the reader-writer contract is.

says the guy who believes bioware false advertises a product


and omg grammar argument boho seriously bro get a life


tell me again mr smarty how did bioware falsley advertise the product that THEY not you THEY made?

By telling people it has a wide range of wildly different endings, which took all your previous choices into account, answered every question, and certainly wasn't just a typical pick A, B or C conclusion. 

Falsely advertised. 

[Baronesa]

Uhmm Luc0s?

What about this? please?

http://kotaku.com/58...a-ton-of-errors

Why it is ok for THIS to happen and not for the ending to be corrected or changed or expanded?

Modifié par Baronesa, 24 mars 2012 - 12:11 .

[SupR G]

Luc0s wrote...

If they (the artist) decide that they want to change their art, they are free to do so. But we have no right to demand a change within art. To demand that an artist changes his art is silly to say the least. We may voice our displeasure. We may decide not to buy future products of the artist. We may even suggest the artist to change his art. but we cannot DEMAND the artist to change his art.

Actually as free citizens and consumers, we do have a right to demand anything and everything. What we have a right to receive is nothing, as it's owned by the respective artist/developer. However they have chosen to change the ending, to make us happy, or maybe for their own personal reasons, so respect their choice and stop arguing with everyone?

[Unit-Alpha]

Luc0s wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

This.

The day one dlc causes the "it is entirely art" argument.
The breaking of the reader-writer contract/ false advertising dismantles the entitlement argument. 

As far as I know, these are the only two arguments that keep appearing...

Read my OP again. Where did I make an "it's entirey art" argument?

Gosh, I didn't know BSN was so dumb and illiterate. <_<

Entirely*

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 12:11 .

[Janus382]

Luc0s wrote...
But is it fair and/or realistic for players to demand a new ending, especially when the ending is a non-interactive part of the game, a cut-scene that is part of the narrative, the story? Are we players within our right to demand changes in that?

Therein lies part of the problem.  The ending, starting with the Catalyst/Guardian/Starchild/Godchild (lol), is virtually non-interactive.  Giving us no choice in the matter but to accept him at face value, and the subsequent "choice" between 3 nearly identical ending (6, if you split hairs), is railroading us into their "artistic vision".  Given that the rest of the series calls for narrative-altering decisions, and takes past choices into consideration, I do believe it is realistic and within our rights to "demand" alterations.

Plus the "16 different endings", "unique endings", "choice", blah blah pre-game quotes.

EDIT: However, I do agree it is ultimately their decision, which I think should be obvious.  That doesn't mean that decision should be without risk.

Modifié par Janus382, 24 mars 2012 - 12:12 .

[Aznable Char]

Luc0s wrote...


And before you come with the argument that games aren't the same as movies, I advice you to read my entire post again, until you understand that demanding a different ending in a game is the same as demanding a different ending for a movie. Yes, games are different, but I already explained why an ending or any cutscene within a game is not part of the interactive experience, it's not part of the interactive relationship between the player and developer. A cutscene is an artistic expression and in my opinion, art should not be changed because the viewer demands it. Art should only be changed if the artist decides that it should be changed.

You're right , it's absurd for most people to want to demand a better ending to a movie (although some try) .

Why is it absurd ?

Because most people simply don't watch the next movie .

Remember the failure that was M Night Shyamalan's "The Last Airbender" ?

Why haven't we seen a sequel yet ? The cartoon that ran was insanely popular even amongst older viewers . The movie , we all know , was crap . Yet no one demanded the movie be changed even though we all talked about how bad it was .

So why haven't we seen a sequel ? Because people who watch movies don't go and complain to M Night Shyamalan . People who don't like a movie just don't watch any more movies made by the same people . They just don't . And the studio loses money . The director loses money . Would you go watch another Shyamalan film ? You may , but do you think most people will ? No .

Shyamalan is out of a job . So let's pretend for a second that you're M. Night Shyamalan and you made a horrible movie . You've got some people who really loved Sixth Sense and The village and they come up to you and like 'gosh , if only you changed the ending to that movie I'd probably watch another film of yours . I liked your other movies , why couldn't it be like those ?"

Problem with movies is that there are no DLCs for movies . You can't just release a DVD and somehow you can take that movie you watched in theaters , take it home 2 weeks after it released on film and play a supplementary DVD . Movies ARE a different medium because their impact and their lifespan is IMMEDIATE .

Games we have here sitting at home are easy to redeploy through the new age of DLC .

Do you think if Shyamalan had a way to simply magicaly add a new or more 15 minutes into the end of the film at a fraction of the cost of making a whole new one and by doing so would restore confidence in him so that a good chunk of people would watch his next movie , do you think he would do it ?

I think he would do it .

Not because anyone forced him , but because he didn't want people just walking away on him .

We are giving BioWare a courtesy call right now . We are saying "okay , BioWare , I WAS going to leave you forever , but gosh darnit I want to give you a chance . If you change the ending , that'll show me you're serious about you and me . If not , I can go now"

I'll repeat that , WE ARE GIVING BIOWARE A COURTESY . Otherwise we'd all be off somewhere else playing skyrim or league of legends or crusader kings II or whatever . We are holding the line because we are the loyal ones . We are the ones who didn't like the ending who actually decided to stick around .

IN the end , we are more champions of BioWare than most because when they hit us with a bad ending , we stayed when we could have just walked away .

Modifié par Aznable Char, 24 mars 2012 - 12:13 .

[Rockpopple]

Baronesa wrote...

Rockpopple wrote...

The Mass Effect Deception example doesn't hold that much water.

There's a big difference between something being "changed" and something being "corrected".

However, that's why I'm in favour of them clarifying the endings with extra scenes and whatnot to expand on them so they make sense. To me that'd be a correction, rather than changing them completely.

But the changes are viewed by peopel as a correction, because the ending is disconnected with the rest of the storytelling of not only the game, but the entire trilogy. The whole ending section , specially the part with spacebrat, comes out of left field, with an explanation that we are forced to accept (out of character for Shepard)

Don't buy that argument at all, sorry. Changing is changing, correcting is correcting.

If a book is released riddled with spelling errors and twisting of known canon factoids, then yeah, it should be corrected, and it often is. But a game's ending is seen is disappointing and so you want to "correct" it with an entirely new one?

What's to say that you won't be upset with the new "corrected" ending? What's to say that you won't want that ending "corrected"? Where does it stop?

No, what you're asking for is a change, and I don't subscribe to that. They should clarify the ending, correct any errors they may have made, not create a whole new ending out of whole cloth.

But that's just one man's opinion.

[MystaisPC]

It's a bad and broken ending. If it were merely depressing or sad then I agree with you. But it includes no closure, resolution or epilogue.  Not to mention riddled with plotholes and lore inaccuracies.  

Using 'artistic integrity' to defend broken is wrong.

Modifié par MystaisPC, 24 mars 2012 - 12:14 .

[Paparob]

This thread is terrible.

[AlexMBrennan]

Again, al, this talk about art is nothing more than a diversion. If you commissioned a landscape and got the Mona Lisa instead then you would still be entitled to a refund under appropriate legislation.

As for the op, wtf ? I don't think your argument makes much sense

[Tazzmission]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

says who you?


get over yourself because i would love some evidence to back up your claim like a legislation that says such a thing

As is obvious by your grammar, I don't think you have the slightest clue what the reader-writer contract is.

says the guy who believes bioware false advertises a product


and omg grammar argument boho seriously bro get a life


tell me again mr smarty how did bioware falsley advertise the product that THEY not you THEY made?

By telling people it has a wide range of wildly different endings, which took all your previous choices into account, answered every question, and certainly wasn't just a typical pick A, B or C conclusion. 

Falsely advertised. 

and again that wont hold up in court and you know that


if you literally think it well the us congress would be in prison for false promises by now

get a clue buddy

[thedancingdruid]

This thread's flying so I don't know if this has been mentioned before but J.K. did change Harry Potter in her ending he died.