1316 réponses à ce sujet

[Unit-Alpha]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Again, al, this talk about art is nothing more than a diversion. If you commissioned a landscape and got the Mona Lisa instead then you would still be entitled to a refund under appropriate legislation.

As for the op, wtf ? I don't think your argument makes much sense

You're not alone.

[ket_shee]

Tazzmission wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

says who you?


get over yourself because i would love some evidence to back up your claim like a legislation that says such a thing

The reader-writer contract is a popular concept cited by people on the forums to hold a writer to the expectations of the reader. For example a writer puts in a large, golden idol and expands upon it in great detail, foreshadowing and implying a significant role in the story for the idol. But then never touches it again. Some people feel this way about some of our decisions in the game pertaining to the ending

In regards to the OP, I believe we CAN make demands of ANYONE for ANYTHING. It's our right to compliance I don't believe in (course, I also believe we have no rights whatsoever, but moving on) and which is something we are not entitled to.

I can go into the Starbucks down the street and DEMAND my free Iced Vanilla Latte. Sometimes, with enough crying or comedy, I get it. But I can't wholly expect the same for every other demand I make in life.

However, should you pull the argument out (which it seems you are) that we can not demand someone to change their artistic integrity, please keep in mind BioWare handed us a portion of it to us by explicitly saying "Mass Effect is a collaboration between developers and players, and we continue to listen."

BioWare, in fact, has ALWAYS had this stance in almost all of their games. Many of you may not remember, but there was a particularly popular fan mod creator, recognized for his outstanding Neverwinter Nights Paladin campaign, who was HIRED by BioWare (he went on to make Kingmaker DLC I believe).

An argument that'll surely span across 10-12 pages and beyond, but won't reach a resolution anytime soon.

Oh and to fulfill story related requisites; I found a Garrus plushie.

[The Night Mammoth]

Change? Who the hell actually wants a mandatory change for everyone?

Is DLC mandatory now?

[Unit-Alpha]

Tazzmission wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

says who you?


get over yourself because i would love some evidence to back up your claim like a legislation that says such a thing

As is obvious by your grammar, I don't think you have the slightest clue what the reader-writer contract is.

says the guy who believes bioware false advertises a product


and omg grammar argument boho seriously bro get a life


tell me again mr smarty how did bioware falsley advertise the product that THEY not you THEY made?

By telling people it has a wide range of wildly different endings, which took all your previous choices into account, answered every question, and certainly wasn't just a typical pick A, B or C conclusion. 

Falsely advertised. 

and again that wont hold up in court and you know that


if you literally think it well the us congress would be in prison for false promises by now

get a clue buddy

LOL, you really don't understand consumer rights, do you?

At all.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/consumer.shtm

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 24 mars 2012 - 12:14 .

[Reptilian Rob]

Still waiting for OP to respond to my previous post...

[Theb82]

dafangirl wrote...

It's wonderful that they're revising Mass Effect: Deception but I still have my $7.99 paperback copy? That doesn't help me.

Well OP you just might get that wish ...

http://imgur.com/eMYVd

For me personally, that's fine, but to me a video game is art and Bioware's art type then is not for me any longer. It's not over my head. I haven't changed, their art has and I don't like it any longer.

I feel sorry for the guy on twitter when his fine wine gets to the end of the bottle

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So what lessons have we learned here?

1. Don't buy the hype.
2. Don't put any value in magazine reviews from magazines that get advertizing revenue from the game publishers.
3. Don't pre-order games.
4. If one does pre-order, wait until user reviews are out before picking them up at the store.
5. In any event, don't buy the game until user reviews are out.

What does this do? It might force the game companies to put out a better product.

If I pre-order the game from the brick and mortar store and the game bombs, I can apply my pre-order to another game. If I pre-order it online, they ship it. This is why they want brick and mortar stores to go away.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 24 mars 2012 - 12:16 .

[Unit-Alpha]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Still waiting for OP to respond to my previous post...

He hasn't responded to any of my ones. Can't stand reasonable, right arguments, obviously.

[Reptilian Rob]

ket_shee wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

says who you?


get over yourself because i would love some evidence to back up your claim like a legislation that says such a thing

The reader-writer contract is a popular concept cited by people on the forums to hold a writer to the expectations of the reader. For example a writer puts in a large, golden idol and expands upon it in great detail, foreshadowing and implying a significant role in the story for the idol. But then never touches it again. Some people feel this way about some of our decisions in the game pertaining to the ending

In regards to the OP, I believe we CAN make demands of ANYONE for ANYTHING. It's our right to compliance I don't believe in (course, I also believe we have no rights whatsoever, but moving on) and which is something we are not entitled to.

I can go into the Starbucks down the street and DEMAND my free Iced Vanilla Latte. Sometimes, with enough crying or comedy, I get it. But I can't wholly expect the same for every other demand I make in life.

However, should you pull the argument out (which it seems you are) that we can not demand someone to change their artistic integrity, please keep in mind BioWare handed us a portion of it to us by explicitly saying "Mass Effect is a collaboration between developers and players, and we continue to listen."

BioWare, in fact, has ALWAYS had this stance in almost all of their games. Many of you may not remember, but there was a particularly popular fan mod creator, recognized for his outstanding Neverwinter Nights Paladin campaign, who was HIRED by BioWare (he went on to make Kingmaker DLC I believe).

An argument that'll surely span across 10-12 pages and beyond, but won't reach a resolution anytime soon.

Oh and to fulfill story related requisites; I found a Garrus plushie.

I KNOW RITE!?

I WANT DAT PLUSHIE BUT SHE CHARGES LIKE $150!

[Vigil_N7]

If people want to keep holding the line, then they're entitled too, but for me, I'm pretty much done with the mass effect series and I'm moving on.

I've had a terrific time experiencing the Mass Effect universe, but ultimately its just a game. There is going to be other games, better games, better stories, better trilogies.
Its a shame the game ended the way it did but I don't regret for one second the hours I put invested into playing this game.

I hear many people are getting emotionally troubled and/or stressed over the ending, hell I felt really sad after I completed it as well, but just remember a game doesn't define who you are, its not the be all and end all of your happiness. Could it have ended better? Of course, but it didn't, oh well.

Keep donating to child's play, keep holding the line if you so desire. All I know is that Bioware's partnership with EA, while it hasn't been disastrous, has not provided any visible or tangible benefits to customers. If any thing, things like the Ashes DLC and the apparently rush jobs of DA2, and possibly ME3, leave me skeptical and distrustful of future bioware products, and I'll be voicing my concerns via my wallet.

Don't let yourselves become emotionally dependent on a game, it'll only play into their hands and will allow them to monetize the series we cherish even more.

[Zix13]

Luc0s wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

This.

The day one dlc causes the "it is entirely art" argument.
The breaking of the reader-writer contract/ false advertising dismantles the entitlement argument. 

As far as I know, these are the only two arguments that keep appearing...

Read my OP again. Where did I make an "it's entirey art" argument?

Gosh, I didn't know BSN was so dumb and illiterate. <_<

I was actually referring to the article which you linked. Don't know why it would change your mind, those arguments have been made since day one. 

Love how pro ending supporters lower themselves to the level of insulting others since they can't produce a coherent argument.

[Shadow2G]

As a signal boost for the OP, it's very much worthwhile to take a look at the PC Gamer article and get the perspective of 10 different developers and game writers on changing the ending. That said, I'm still holding the line for a DLC that gives us both closure and the wildly divergent endings that the ME3 developers promised in their public statements prior to the game's release.

[poundoffleshaa]

I don't see how people asking for change is a bad thing it only show that they are interested in the series a far more negative response would be to just give up on the series and Bioware and buy your games from other more audience savy devs in future ( like Bethesda, Obsidian etc).

Modifié par poundoffleshaa, 24 mars 2012 - 12:15 .

[bryan12112]

Luc0s wrote...

I want to clarify, that I still absolutely HATE the ending of Mass Effect 3, but only now do I realize how silly it is that we demand that BioWare changes it. That does not mean that I think BioWare shouldn't change it. I think BioWare should make up their own mind and then THEY should decide what to do with the endings, NOT US.

For me, personally, holding the line is about individuals getting together, not backing down, and letting their voice be heard. There was a lot of talk of all the negative reactions being from a "vocal minority", and I think those claims have been at least partially dismissed. I know we don't have the right to force BioWare, or anyone else, to do anything. They gave us an ending, and we reacted to it. That is all. The hold the line thing gave me a voice. If BioWare tries their best to make this right, great. I can appreciate that. If not, they are going to lose customers. That's all there is to it. What matters is that we told BioWare how we felt. The ball is in their court now, and we wait. It is inevitable that some people will take it too far, but really, nobody is being forced to do anything.

Modifié par bryan12112, 24 mars 2012 - 12:18 .

[agathokakological]

Luc0s wrote...

So if BioWare wishes to change the endings for us, then I fully support them.
If BioWare doesn't want to change the endings but instead they choose to expand the current endings, I fully support them.
If BioWare decides to do nothing, I'll be hugely dissapoined, but I'll still fully support them.

Baaa.

[xxskyshadowxx]

Luc0s wrote...

SupR G wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Well, the problem is that once it leaves the dev's hands and they sell it as a product with ****ING DAY ONE DLC it is no longer art and can thus be changed by consumer demand.

That, and we were blatantly lied to, breaking the reader-writer contract.

WRONG!

The cutscenes, narrative and story within games are very much art and always will be art.

Are movies art? If you answer is "yes" than you should also understand why the non-interactive parts of video-games are art.

People change movies by rebooting them or remaking them. Filmmakers like George Lucas change entire scenes from movies solely on his own discretion and at the request of nobody. Musicians constantly remix their music or other people's music, or change lyrics to include new artists. Books get revisions. Screenwriters write screenplays that are re-written by two or three other screenwriters. I can go on and on, but just because something is art doesn't mean that it's final. Whoever owns the peice, being a writer, photographer, painter, musician or whatever can change this or make it free for someone else to change at any time if they want. People rallied, asked for a new ending, Bioware listened and decided to change it. They could have said no, but they didn't. They actually care what their fans want instead of maintaining their own "artistic vision" if we want to call it that.

You say you support this decision, yet you argue against it? I think you're just proving you don't really know what you want or what this is all about really.

You obviously don't understand. Maybe you should read my posts again.


Yes, movies are remade, sometimes even changed. Books get revisions, I get that. Art can and will be changed, I get all that. But all that happens on the merit of the artists themselves.


If they (the artist) decide that they want to change their art, they are free to do so. But we have no right to demand a change within art. To demand that an artist changes his art is silly to say the least. We may voice our displeasure. We may decide not to buy future products of the artist. We may even suggest the artist to change his art. but we cannot DEMAND the artist to change his art.

Incorrect. It's at the whim of their publishers and producers. If artists were allowed to do what they wanted within those mediums Firefly would have been produced and played the way Joss Wheadon wanted....it wasn't. Heck there was an episode he had to rewrite overnight.

These mediums have reviews in place to prevent huge continuity screw ups, while still allowing for artistic creativity. The rewrites happen BEFORE release....folks mentioned Harry Potter earlier. J.K. Rowling rewrote some or all of several of the books before release....some multiple times.

Game writers/devs do not have the same system of checks and balances and also have a habit of making claims about their material that cannot or will not be fullfilled. If they followed the same procedure that publishers and producers put wwriters through, this sort of continuity/lore breaking ending would never have seen the light of day in the finished product.

[Dridengx]

Luc0s wrote...

 Because this article has opened my eyes: http://www.pcgamer.c...-writers-think/ 


I've read that article 3 times and I've read really carefully what each developer had to say. Now I have to say that I agree with them, especially this part:

"But things like “cutscenes” and “endings” are completely authored by the developers, and the developers altering the authored content of a game after the fact has nothing to do with the systemic player-developer collaboration described above. "

I want to clarify, that I still absolutely HATE the ending of Mass Effect 3, but only now do I realize how silly it is that we demand that BioWare changes it. That does not mean that I think BioWare shouldn't change it. I think BioWare should make up their own mind and then THEY should decide what to do with the endings, NOT US.

Good for you OP. Even though you want the ending changed naturally of course since you hate it, I find your ability to see other people's opinions and understand where they are coming from refreshing and civil

Modifié par Dridengx, 24 mars 2012 - 12:16 .

[KaeserZen]

Indoctrinated presence detected !

[Unit-Alpha]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

I don't see how people asking for change is a bad thing it only show that they are interested in the series a far more negative response would be to just give up on the series and Bioware and buy your games from other more audience savy devs in future ( like Bethesda, Obsidian etc).

Yeah, Bethesda has *no* artistic integrity at all. I turn my nose up at thee.

[xdognatex]

Of course they dont think i should be changed cuz they dont want to be held accountable for what they make. Call it Art then your safe from criticism. Not going to fly since millions are being made. You want art that you wont have to change go make a statue out of tin cans in your back yard, and your safe it will never need to be changed. Sell a PRODUCT that you want to make money off of, make claims about the ending and dont follow threw, expect backlash because its justified.

[wantedman dan]

Luc0s wrote...

You obviously don't understand. Maybe you should read my posts again.

Yes, movies are remade, sometimes even changed. Books get revisions, I get that. Art can and will be changed, I get all that. But all that happens on the merit of the artists themselves.


If they (the artist) decide that they want to change their art, they are free to do so. But we have no right to demand a change within art. To demand that an artist changes his art is silly to say the least. We may voice our displeasure. We may decide not to buy future products of the artist. We may even suggest the artist to change his art. but we cannot DEMAND the artist to change his art.

What you're failing to realize is the fact that Mass Effect transcends that very... basic model of art you're describing in the OP. When daVinci painted the Mona Lisa, did he require the meticulous, step-by-step involvement from Lisa? Better yet, did he require any involvement from the viewing community?

No, he didn't. And that is why your OP is fallacious and based solely in an incorrect premise.

Something loses any grasp at "artistic integrity" when it a) becomes a commodity to be purchased and sold at random, has pieces necessary for a wholesome completion forcefully removed to be sold and purchased at a later date, in another medium, etc., and c) when said art completely interfaces and interacts with the person using it.

Sure, those cutscenes were completely derived from their creative minds--however, it took MY decisions, MY emotional input, and MY drive to get to that scene and that's just something you're not either a) accounting for, or understanding. I'm reticent to decide which one, although I'm leaning towards option B due to your retaliatory and condescending nature.

[Chuloos]

Luc0s wrote...

 Because this article has opened my eyes: http://www.pcgamer.c...-writers-think/ 


I've read that article 3 times and I've read really carefully what each developer had to say. Now I have to say that I agree with them, especially this part:

"But things like “cutscenes” and “endings” are completely authored by the developers, and the developers altering the authored content of a game after the fact has nothing to do with the systemic player-developer collaboration described above. "

I want to clarify, that I still absolutely HATE the ending of Mass Effect 3, but only now do I realize how silly it is that we demand that BioWare changes it. That does not mean that I think BioWare shouldn't change it. I think BioWare should make up their own mind and then THEY should decide what to do with the endings, NOT US.

So if BioWare wishes to change the endings for us, then I fully support them.
If BioWare doesn't want to change the endings but instead they choose to expand the current endings, I fully support them.
If BioWare decides to do nothing, I'll be hugely dissapoined, but I'll still fully support them.
They are within their right to do whatever they want with the narrative in their games and we players have no say over that.


If we players demanded a change within the gameplay, then I'd fully support that, because that is part of the interactive  relationship between player and developer. The developer creates an interactive product, we as the players interact with it and the result of that interactive relationship is gameplay. 


But is it fair and/or realistic for players to demand a new ending, especially when the ending is a non-interactive part of the game, a cut-scene that is part of the narrative, the story? Are we players within our right to demand changes in that?

Let me ask you this: Are we in our right to demand a new ending for Lord of The Rings? Is it fair if we demand a new ending for Harry Potter?


And before you come with the argument that games aren't the same as movies, I advice you to read my entire post again, until you understand that demanding a different ending in a game is the same as demanding a different ending for a movie. Yes, games are different, but I already explained why an ending or any cutscene within a game is not part of the interactive experience, it's not part of the interactive relationship between the player and developer. A cutscene is an artistic expression and in my opinion, art should not be changed because the viewer demands it. Art should only be changed if the artist decides that it should be changed.

I would like to just point out a couple things that you.. yourself said. 

1) You support changing an interactive part of the game but not the ending..  I wonder what you would clasify having to walk to either one of the choices give you.. and either grab, jump or shoot.  Is that not interactive.

2) As far as Harry Potter goes.  JK Rowlings planned on killing off Harry.. fans got word of it.. and she changed that part of the story.. so that example fails.

You are well within your right to not Hold the Line.. or accept whatever it is you want to accept.  I think it is pretty interesting that out of all the folks interviewed in that article.. you picked the one person who held that view... all the others were pretty much.. it is always a good thing to try and please your audience..

So.. thanks for sticking around as long as you did.  Enjoy the ending as it is.. I know I won't and don't

[Pottumuusi]

Opsrbest wrote...

Absolutly 100% you are not trying to force anything. NOT AT ALL.

Umm, nope?

It's not forcing unless someone walks into Bioware's HQ with a gun and threatens to kill everyone unless they make a better ending.

Modifié par Pottumuusi, 24 mars 2012 - 12:18 .

[Fliprot]

Isnt expanding on the current endings changing the endings?