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My view on BioWare, the demand for a new ending and the Retake movement.


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#176
Reptilian Rob

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Nevermind...

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 24 mars 2012 - 12:18 .


#177
Gigerstreak

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We can't force them. This is an outrage because they promised one thing and gave another. I can demand whatever I want to. They can make whatever they want to. It's keeping me happy so I give them money that is important to them. Having a bunch of made up stuff that tells a good story and has a decent ENDING is important to me.

Modifié par Gigerstreak, 24 mars 2012 - 12:18 .


#178
Marque De Leon

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Opsrbest wrote...


-------------------------------------------------------
Actually claiming to do the following:

- Not purchase another Bioware product.
- Cancel a SWTOR subscrip.
- Return your ME3 copy.
- Violate forum TOS and be a prat on the forums by attacking Bioware, Bioware employees, etc.

Those above have all been stated factual evidentary statements made by the people who, if they don't get what they want, will respond in that manner. That is in fact forcing. It is in fact called coercion.


Are you insane? Aside from the last one all of the things you listed are RIGHTS THAT CONSUMERS HAVE! That's not forcing! That's not coercion! That's exercising your rights as a consumer!

#179
ScotGaymer

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I am getting really tired of this arguement.

Seriously.

OP @ I am sorry that the actions of a few idiotic people have turned you off to the movement and its goals entirely, or if you feel like the movement isn't going to gain anything.

Personally I think turning away and only sticking around to complain about the ending is counter productive, but it is completely up to you.

#180
antony1197

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Are they in THEIR right to lie to us outright?
Official Mass Effect Website
http://masseffect.com/about/story/

“Experience the beginning, middle, and end of an emotional story unlike any other, where the decisions you make completely shape your experience and outcome.”


Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://popwatch.ew.c...-3-mac-walters/

“[The presence of the Rachni] has huge consequences in Mass Effect 3. Even just in the final battle with the Reapers.”


Interview with Mac Walters (Lead Writer)
http://business.fina...-all-audiences/

“I’m always leery of saying there are 'optimal' endings, because I think one of the things we do try to do is make different endings that are optimal for different people”


Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.computera...missing-in-me2/

“And, to be honest, you [the fans] are crafting your Mass Effect story as much as we are anyway.”


Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.360magazi...ferent-endings/

“There are many different endings. We wouldn’t do it any other way. How could you go through all three campaigns playing as your Shepard and then be forced into a bespoke ending that everyone gets? But I can’t say any more than that…”


Interview with Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.eurogamer...me-people-angry

“Every decision you've made will impact how things go. The player's also the architect of what happens."

Whether you're happy or angry at the ending, know this: it is an ending.
BioWare will not do a "Lost" and leave fans with more questions than
answers after finishing the game, Gamble promised.

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people.”

“Because a lot of these plot threads are concluding and because it's being brought to a finale, since you were a part of architecting how they got to how they were, you will definitely sense how they close was because of the decisions you made and because of the decisions you didn't make”


Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...s-effect-3.aspx

“For people who are invested in these characters and the back-story of the universe and everything, all of these things come to a resolution in Mass Effect 3. And they are resolved in a way that's very different based on what you would do in those situations.”


Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://venturebeat.c...fans-interview/

“Fans want to make sure that they see things resolved, they want to get some closure, a great ending. I think they’re going to get that.”

“Mass Effect 3 is all about answering all the biggest questions in the lore, learning about the mysteries and the Protheans and the Reapers, being able to decide for yourself how all of these things come to an end.”

Interviewer: “So are you guys the creators or the stewards of the franchise?”

Hudson: “Um… You know, at this point, I think we’re co-creators with the fans. We use a lot of feedback.”


Interview with Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.gameinfor...PostPageIndex=2

Interviewer: [Regarding the numerous possible endings of Mass Effect 2] “Is that same type of complexity built into the ending of Mass Effect 3?”

Hudson: “Yeah, and I’d say much more so, because we have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we don’t have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we’re taking into account so many decisions that you’ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.”

“We have a rule in our franchise that there is no canon. You as a player decide what your story is.”


Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....in_bioware.html

Mass Effect 3 will shake up the player's moral choices more than ever before, even going so far as allowing the Reapers to win the battle for Earth, according to BioWare's community representative Mike Gamble.


Mike Gamble (Associate Producer)
http://www.nowgamer....ry_details.html

"Of course you don’t have to play multiplayer, you can choose to play all the side-quests in single-player and do all that stuff you’ll still get all the same endings and same information, it’s just a totally different way of playing"


Casey Hudson (Director)
http://gamescatalyst...active-stories/

“The whole idea of Mass Effect3 is resolving all of the biggest questions, about the Protheons and the Reapers, and being in the driver's seat to end the galaxy and all of these big plot lines, to decide what civilizations are going to live or die: All of these things are answered in Mass Effect 3.”


Casey Hudson (Director)
http://www.computera...ly-good/?page=2

“There is a huge set of consequences that start stacking up as you approach the end-game. And even in terms of the ending itself, it continues to break down to some very large decisions. So it's not like a classic game ending where everything is linear and you make a choice between a few things - it really does layer in many, many different choices, up to the final moments, where it's going to be different for everyone who plays it.”

#181
ZodiEmish

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There seems to be a lot of raging in this thread. at least what I am reading.

Anyway... Art as it may be OP. It is still a product that they mass produce and sell to us the consumer. Now they want us to buy more of this art later on in the form of DLC, but we the consumer are not happy with the product. Normally that means the unhappy consumers will move on. But in care cases when there are enough fans of a product, or they care about the product ( like a lot of us do ) then they can get to a company and demand that they fix the product or they will take their money some place else. That is just how the free market works.

Now Bioware while they may be artist.. Are a business first and for most. Their real task is to make a product to make money. Not art. Money is what they are out to make. that is the bottom line of this product. Now as a business they two choices. Ignore the group of people who don't like their product, and lose money, or they can fix the product and make money,while keeping the customers happy. That is their only choice. If it art or not doesn't matter because they are out to make the most money. They are out to make their stock prices go up. That is the bottom line.

If bioware wanted to make art. They should break off from EA, and release games for free, but if they are going to mass produce games, slap a price tag on it and sell it to us. then they need to listen to their fans because that right there is a product, and we as consumers have the right to demand they fix their product.

I think a lot of people forget that we paid 60, to 80 dollars for this game, and they still expect us to buy 60 more dollars worth of DLC. If they want those DLC sells ( which is a large part of their profit ) then they need to keep us happy. We buy their product, they product the products. without us there is no them.

#182
Sashimi_taco

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I don't remember OP ever holding the line in the first place.

#183
sH0tgUn jUliA

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And in an instant gratification society a fix is expected to come in two to three weeks. Sorry guys, a fix of this magnitude is going to take a few months. Holding the line is going to take a while. You're going to have to be patient.

Holding the line doesn't mean you can't do other things while you wait.

#184
ShaneP

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Although I appreciate to a certain extent that games are an art form, they're also commercial products that are bought and sold, and as such I believe that fans have a right to demand a certain level of quality from these products.

Also: Games usually have a specific target audience, if that audience is unhappy, you messed up.

#185
yoshibb

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We have a right to what we paid for

As I said before, they want to call this art but then they advertise it like they were selling a used car. A majority of statements were made after the game went gold.

#186
Unit-Alpha

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Sashimi_taco wrote...

I don't remember OP ever holding the line in the first place.


That's what I said.

#187
sistersafetypin

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Pottumuusi wrote...

Hasn't this been covered before?
They have the right to make any sort of ending they want.
I have a right to think that their ending is terrible and say that it would be better if they did X.
They have the right to change or not change the endings if they want to. They just have to decide if they like their "artistic integrity" or whatever better than they like my money.


Seriously, no one is holding a gun to their heads. If they cared at all about artistic integretiy they would have said no before the frenzy reached a fevor pitch and been done with it.

And I, and I'm sure many other fans would have said ok... And closed our wallets to Bioware for an indefinite amount of time. Like I've said before, they have a right to their lazily written ending. They just don't have a right to my money or support

#188
DrowNoble

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http://www.gamefront...fans-are-right/

The above is an excellent article on why we are right in our outcry. I suggest anyone thinking that "well it's Bioware's art so they can't change it" should give it a read.

The fact that it or isn't Art is irrelevant to the issue we have. Too many people and the media seem to think this is some kind of reason as to why the horrible ending is A-Ok.

First off, they lied about the features of ME3. They said, publicly and officially, that the game would have 17 different endings varied by our choices made in ME3 and that the conclusion of the trilogy would be a culmination of all our choices made in the entire trilogy. These were all false claims. The ending was already done, yet they made these claims anyways. This is the reason for the BBB/FTC complaint filings. Not for "ending sucks change it" but a company (Bioware) made false claims about features of a new product (ME3).

Secondly, the ending is disingenuous the franchise as a whole. This is the other reason fans are so upset. The entire series was based off the premise that our choices (and consequences) would affect how the story unfolds. Bioware has said that we fans help write the games. Then at the very end they take that away and give 3 endings which are essentially the same, regardless of any past choices we've made.

Next, a conclusion to a trilogy is akin to the series finale of a tv show. Not only does it have to bring a conclusion to story of the final game (or season for tv), it has to wrap up the entire series. The ending we have now fails on both points. It is full of plot holes and confusion, leaving no future for the franchise. What's the point of continuing the adventures of Shephard if the relays are all gone and the remaining survivors are now back in the stone age?

It is to Bioware's advantage to fix the ending. It's their Art yes and they have the right to do whatever they want. However, they built a loyal customer base off certain ideals which they have now thrown out the window. At best the sales of future ME3 DLC are in jeopardy, at worst the future sales of Bioware products in general. Remember, a lot of people were unhappy with how DA2 turned out, now they have this fiasco.

Remember people: HOLD THE LINE

#189
Madecologist

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Luc0s wrote...

If they (the artist) decide that they want to change their art, they are free to do so. But we have no right to demand a change within art. To demand that an artist changes his art is silly to say the least. We may voice our displeasure. We may decide not to buy future products of the artist. We may even suggest the artist to change his art. but we cannot DEMAND the artist to change his art.

This, people need to understand the distinction.

The OP never said we can't protest about the endings or ask them to consider changing it. He never said we can't use commercial pressure (not purchasing future products and DLC) to motivate the company to listen to our complaints. All he said is we can't make an outright demand for it. It is their choice how they react to the complaints, be it for better or worst (for us or them).

Modifié par Madecologist, 24 mars 2012 - 12:25 .


#190
HenchxNarf

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Very well said, OP. IA.

#191
Anteocitis

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Luc0s wrote...

I want to clarify, that I still absolutely HATE the ending of Mass Effect 3, but only now do I realize how silly it is that we demand that BioWare changes it. That does not mean that I think BioWare shouldn't change it. I think BioWare should make up their own mind and then THEY should decide what to do with the endings, NOT US.


Why, or how, did you think they would ever do anything other than that anyway?

The demand was always silly, devisive and self-defeating. The vocalisation of the desire was not.


"Listening to the audience
is important, but it’s when you agree with them that you should make
changes. If you’re going to revise stuff, by all means go ahead, but be
sure you’re doing it because you want to, not because you think you
should.”


#192
HenchxNarf

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Madecologist wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

If they (the artist) decide that they want to change their art, they are free to do so. But we have no right to demand a change within art. To demand that an artist changes his art is silly to say the least. We may voice our displeasure. We may decide not to buy future products of the artist. We may even suggest the artist to change his art. but we cannot DEMAND the artist to change his art.

This, people need to understand the distinction.


Exactly.

#193
babachewie

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

We are customers.

We paid money for a product. In the art world, it's called commission. And guess who makes the choices there?

You guessed it, the buyer.

Not once its done and its been paid for. Trust me. I'm an illustrator 

#194
Hexley UK

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Marque De Leon wrote...

Opsrbest wrote...


-------------------------------------------------------
Actually claiming to do the following:

- Not purchase another Bioware product.
- Cancel a SWTOR subscrip.
- Return your ME3 copy.
- Violate forum TOS and be a prat on the forums by attacking Bioware, Bioware employees, etc.

Those above have all been stated factual evidentary statements made by the people who, if they don't get what they want, will respond in that manner. That is in fact forcing. It is in fact called coercion.


Are you insane? Aside from the last one all of the things you listed are RIGHTS THAT CONSUMERS HAVE! That's not forcing! That's not coercion! That's exercising your rights as a consumer!


Lol i know right? I was going to respond to him....but really I just couldn't be bothered wasting my time. Amazing how some people think basic consumers rights are somehow wrong....:blink:

#195
Unit-Alpha

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Madecologist wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

If they (the artist) decide that they want to change their art, they are free to do so. But we have no right to demand a change within art. To demand that an artist changes his art is silly to say the least. We may voice our displeasure. We may decide not to buy future products of the artist. We may even suggest the artist to change his art. but we cannot DEMAND the artist to change his art.

This, people need to understand the distinction.


Except, we are allowed to demand one.

It's in the Constitution and many other countries' founding documents.

#196
Achaewa

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Seems to me that the OP is choosing specific replies and twisting them into his own words to use against others.

Seriously has he even read any of the longer posts. Mass Effect is a videogame, a videogame is a product, a product is bought by the consumers, if the consumers do not like the product, they'll find one that's better and the developer wont get any money in the future. That's capitalism 101.

#197
Dridengx

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Unit-Alpha wrote...

LOL, you really don't understand consumer rights, do you?

At all.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/consumer.shtm


Hate to interupt your laughing but how is that FTC report on Bioware going? Still think your consumer rights were violated? yeah....

#198
Pottumuusi

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HenchxNarf wrote...

Madecologist wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

If they (the artist) decide that they want to change their art, they are free to do so. But we have no right to demand a change within art. To demand that an artist changes his art is silly to say the least. We may voice our displeasure. We may decide not to buy future products of the artist. We may even suggest the artist to change his art. but we cannot DEMAND the artist to change his art.

This, people need to understand the distinction.


Exactly.


Gotta love semantics.

#199
Niostang

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This thread is at the top of this forum again? Let it die. The OP has said nothing new. It will always be Bioware's choice in the end. We get that.

What we (people who are dissatisfied with the ending) would be stupid to do is not try and influence that choice if we're disappointed and upset with the way the game's ending turned out. So we demand, we request, we cajole, we reason, we threaten to take our business elsewhere.

I'm standing by my choices, my feelings and my expectations as a fan and a customer - in that order. In the end the only entities I'm trying to convince are Bioware and EA. You didn't make this game. If there are people who have the same ideas as me, great. If not, they're not my concern.

Modifié par Niostang, 24 mars 2012 - 12:24 .


#200
mrpoultry

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Porfirmir wrote...

OP, there is a difference between a cutscene in itself and how the player arrives at that cutscene. We're not asking for existing cutscenes to be changed; we are asking for an entirely new cutscene as a tangible consequence of new choices.

The difference between that and a novel like Harry Potter is this: Mass Effect is a choose-your-own-adventure where each Shepard's history is guided by his or her player, whereas Harry Potter is a story told by one person from beginning to end. We were never given a chance to guide Harry's development and prepare him for his final confrontation with Voldemort. We were, however, able to choose our own Shepard's history, behavior and social circle, as well as the fate of entire civilizations. That is a big, big difference between a novel and an RPG.

Besides, when BioWare chose to withhold certain portions of the experience by monetizing them, Mass Effect ceased to be a piece of art. It would be like taking, say, Tonks' parts out of the book and offering them for an additional 99 cents on top of the cost of the novel. You just can't do that and still call your work "art."


This.