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[Uthenera]

jmd4 wrote...
Also, if Sandal's father was an Aeducan and Bhelen sat the throne and knew of his existence, think what would happen! Bhelen would stop at nothing to find Sandal, I think, as another dangerous heir to the throne. That would be some grist for the story mill.

An intriguing thought, but why would Bhelen consider Sandal as a threat to his throne? Some tradition was brought down by him, but probably not all, so why would the Assembly choose a surfacer, who seems to be even simpleminded to be the next king of Orzammar? Of course Sandal's behaviour could be a part of a clever act, and probably because of his seemingly simplicity of his the Assembly can decide, that it would be nice to have someone on the throne, who could be controlled easily.

[nightscrawl]

jmd4 wrote...

I would say that you cannot have a game in Thedas that does not, in some way, take the presence and impact of the dwarves into account.

Anders: I've always wondered, why is every surface dwarf a merchant or a smith?
Varric: You left out criminals and hired muscle.
Anders: They don't count.
Varric: We dwarves are drawn to shiny objects. Sort of like Magpies, but with business sense.
Anders: You're kidding.
Varric: Of course I am. We come to the surface with the skills our ancestors had, Blondie.
Varric: You think there's a tradition of dwarf woodcutters in Orzammar? Bee keepers? Sailors?
Anders: Well, there could be mushroom growers and nug wranglers.
Varric: Orzammar will never let those people go topside. Too vital. Also, embarrassing.

Sadly, this is pretty much what dwarves were reduced to in DA2, despite the jaunt into the Deep Roads, which I thought was unfortunate. It's also why I would like to either go back to Orzammar or to Kal-Sharok for some real dwarven involvement in the next or future game.

Additionally, if we do go back to Orzammar, seeing whoever is ruling there based on our DAO import would be fantastic. I also would like to see Renvil Harrowmont in Kal-Sharok if we imported a Bhelen king into DA2 and helped Renvil during his quest.

Uthenera wrote...

http://social.biowar...index/8120102/2 here they are saying that Sandal is came from house Aeducan and his mother was an elf or human, is it true or just some kind of insult i don't know, but seems interesting, but is it even possible?

Unless someone quotes from a game, or quotes from a Bioware person (usually David Gaider) you must take most everything on the forums with a grain of salt. This also somewhat applies to players recounting their own experiences in the game as if they were canon (usually when people refer to following Morrigan through the mirror), which they can't be since everyone will have an unique experience based on the choices they've made.

Take a look at this interview to see what DG has to say about Sandal and his involvement in the game (I suggest ctrl+f in browser to search for Sandal's name).

Modifié par nightscrawl, 25 mars 2012 - 06:56 .

[Uthenera]

If i remember correctly Bhelen dies if he didn't became a king, so him as an exile, would"ve been strange, i'm not liking when they bring back dead people, nothing good came out of it, just look at what this Anders fellow did. (I know the death of the companions are optional)

Rica nad Bhelen's kid Endrin was it? Why would they take a perillous road to Kal-Sharok, when Harrowmont didn't try to wipe out his opponent"s house.
Other Aeducans, supporters of Bhelen want to overthrow Harrowmont, they probably find enough support in Orzammar itself, for not to travel to Kal-Sharok, not mention the Aeducans probably not the most famous persons in Kal-Sharok since 1155, after closing down the Deep Roads. 
Probably any other dwarf from Orzammar would receive a rather cold if not hostile welcome, but if they want to trade with Orzammar, maybe they don't kill him, if not to win favour with the king of Orzammar.
Probably the followers of Harrowmont, couldn't find much help in Kal-Sharok, unless they can make a really good argument.
Nonethless it would be nice to see Kal-Sharok, know what happened with the old kings, whom reteated there during the First Blight, etc. 

Modifié par Uthenera, 25 mars 2012 - 11:59 .

[WardenWade]

jmd4 wrote...

Let me make my bias clear immediately: I love dwarves and would love to see more of them in DA, both as playable characters, companions, and love interests (I haven't given up hope on a dwarven LI). DAO and the dwarven origin stories (especially Aeducan, as you might have guessed from my avatar and signature) swept me away in the mystery, power, and tragedy of the dwarves. Unlike dwarves in other franchises in my opinion, such as Warhammer or Dragonlance, the dwarves of DA have depth, dignity, and even beauty. They aren't jokes and are in fact major players in the world in spite of their isolation. I believe dwarves have a huge impact on the world of Thedas, and a big role to play, as well as narrative ideas yet to play out.

Dwarves mine and control the lyrium flow in Thedas, they are arguably the most talented engineers and crafters of all the races, and they also are the most connected to the darkspawn threat. Certainly their production of lyrium is critical--absolutely critical--to the future of mages and templars in DA and thus to the presumed story of DA3.

Beyond that, we have the city of Kal Sharok and all its wonders (and terrors, no doubt) to explore. That could be an entire game in and of itself. And the dwarves patrol and protect the Deep Roads, the most expedient (at least at one time) way to cross from one end of Thedas to the other. Thedas owes the dwarves a great debt, as do the other races (even elves, given that dwarves gave them sanctuary in Cadash Thaig). Even Tevinter owes them a debt for helping to form the Imperium.

I would say that you cannot have a game in Thedas that does not, in some way, take the presence and impact of the dwarves into account. Lest we forget, in some DAO epilogues there was a Circle built in Orzammar! I think this has largely gone forgotten, but this is surely impactful too. The Chantry considers an Exalted March on this Circle, after all! That is pretty important to the Chantry/Circle war.

And personally, I just enjoy the dwarves for themselves, beyond even their narrative importance. When I play a fantasy game I don't want to be a human. I'm a powerless human every day. I would much rather be a strong, decisive dwarven warrior. Or an elf, or qunari, etc. Give me races back, especially dwarves, BioWare!

I agree with all of this, too.  The more dwarves the better...there was pitifully little light shed on their culture in DA2--and as has been mentioned in this thread much of it was in the vein of "dwarves are thugs and merchants"--and I want to know more.  Also, depending on your DA:O ending there may have been a brief war between the dwarves and Ferelden.  That could be pretty important too for DA3, being as Orzammar is so close to Orlais. 

And the option to play as one again, as well as the other races, is vital for DA3 IMO.  The races are Thedas; you can't tell its story/history without all of them in a driving role. 

Well said, jmd4.

[Great_Horn]

WardenWade wrote...

[Snip ...]

I agree with all of this, too.  The more dwarves the better...there was pitifully little light shed on their culture in DA2--and as has been mentioned in this thread much of it was in the vein of "dwarves are thugs and merchants"--and I want to know more.  Also, depending on your DA:O ending there may have been a brief war between the dwarves and Ferelden.  That could be pretty important too for DA3, being as Orzammar is so close to Orlais. 

And the option to play as one again, as well as the other races, is vital for DA3 IMO.  The races are Thedas; you can't tell its story/history without all of them in a driving role. 

Well said, jmd4.

Exactly. I couldn’t agree more. Let’s not forget the second Exalted March was against the Dalish, so dwarves and elves could be defiantly embedded with the Mages vers. Templars war.

[nightscrawl]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

A reason for the chantry to act against Orzammar could also be because the dwarves control the lyrium. The chantry could try to take control there by force instead of converting the dwarves to take it over.

But the dwarves have a natural resistance to the lyrium, which is how they are able to mine and process it. It wouldn't be productive of the Chantry to try and take over the lyrium by force as they would be much less efficient at it (being human) and workers would start dropping like flies.

Orzammar, according to DAO, has only two entrances: the front door in the Frostback Mts, and their entrance into the Deep Roads. Both can be well defended and well fortified against invasion, as the rest of the city is surrounded by tons of rock. The most logical thing would be try to starve them, but we don't know how self-sustaining Orzammar is for basic necessities, how reliant they are on the surface for supplies, and how much of a stock they have built up. I could elaborate even further, but I don't want to get too carried away.

[nightscrawl]

Err... double post, sorry.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 26 mars 2012 - 02:46 .

[ev76]

A good point Sjpelkessjpeler the chantry will probably demand the lyrium for their war efforts. I could see the chantry imposing their will on orzommar much like they try to impose their will on the mages. I could see them storm orzommar and use the common dwarves for labor, don't know how much fanfare the chantry would gain.

[Uthenera]

ev76 wrote...

A good point Sjpelkessjpeler the chantry will probably demand the lyrium for their war efforts. I could see the chantry imposing their will on orzommar much like they try to impose their will on the mages. I could see them storm orzommar and use the common dwarves for labor, don't know how much fanfare the chantry would gain.

What could the Chantry promise to the dwarves, to win their cooperation, if the Chantry would be able to conquer Orzammar? With the Chantry's problems on the surface, could they be able maintain an occupying force in the deep?

Modifié par Uthenera, 26 mars 2012 - 04:07 .

[Uthenera]

sjpelkessjpeler wrote...

Let's not forget that there are quite a few dwarves living topside. They build up a society simular like the dwarves in Orzammar. If the chantry would promise them influence and power they could be pursuaded. And then the dwarves from Kal Sharok. They do not have a proper entrance to the surface. If they could overtake Orzammar they have one. The dwarves are known for their (bloody) conflicts in gaining power and control so I think its plausible.
The casteless in Orzammar could be the "inside force". They could be persuaded by giving them status.

So many possibilities................
I only hope that there will be more dwarve storyline in DA3. I loved the dwarven history we were told in DAO, and the complexity of their society. In DA2 their role was reduced to an absolute minimum.

Yes, the dwarves on the surface seems to be a good source for an invasion, some of them were born topside, foreign to their people, to the traditions, but how many would like to go back to the deep, to the darkspawns?

Entrance aside Kal-Sharok probably would be interested to take revenge on Orzammar, but how could the Chantry make an alliance with them if the only entrance is through Orzammar? Whom they could send as envoy, who don't rise a suspicion, and how could an envoy reach Kal-Sharok in secret?  It's not easy even to get through those massive doors,unnoticed.

For "inside force "it would be wise to use the casteless, they probably now Orzammar and her surroundings better than anyone else,, except maybe some warrior, who are on patrolls, but would they be interested if the only progress, which is waiting for them, that from now on they can work in the mines for the Maker's greater glory? The current rulers also can promise them status if they fight against the foreign invaders.

Another possibility for a diversion force could be hiring the Carta, but after the Warden and Hawke happened with them they are probably in a dire need of recruitment.

Another source for "inside force" could be converts, if there was a Chantry in Orzammar, but their exact number is unknown, If remained any, and if they aren't closely watched, they probably could be used to some degree.

I would except some serious resistance, it's true, that the deshyrs, warriors, etc fights a lot amongst themselves, but most of them are rather traditionalist,,  they wouldn't let an invasion happen without retort. There  are some who wants change things but probably they don't from the hands of the invaders. Most of the dwarves seems to be rather patriotic too, in Kal-Shirol even the castleless took up arms to defend their home 

At some point, when they finished the mage-templar war arc it would be really great to see the Old Dwarven Kingdoms in all their glory, also Arlathan or even the Dales before the Exalted March, there's not much chance for it to happen, nonetheless i'd really like that.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I fully expect dwarves to be blue, to have bat wings and to have bionic upgrades like action missles in DA 3.

[ev76]

Yep, sjpelkessjpeler, I hope they do take notice. Supply lines of lyrium would seem to be important in an all out war between mages to say the least, possible magic wielding dwarfs, Kal Sharok, this things can be excellent ways to include the dwarfs in the grand scheme of things. There are so many possibilities let's keep them coming.
Now another twist would be the mages getting support from orzommar via the dwarf we helped to get into the ferelden circle. For those of us that did help her (sorry name escapes me) in dragon age origins. Thoughts?

[Uthenera]

Isn't her name Dagna? She is a daughter of a smith,or was there's a chance that she loose her status, when she go up. Maybe if she will be a daughter of a deshyr she would be able to have some influence over the situation, but the chance that she will be important at some point is there. It would be nice to know what happened with Zerlinda, i think that was the name of the disowned daughter, and with her son, who was promised to became a sqire for the Warden.

[ev76]

I comepletely forgot about zerlinda. Thanks for refreshing the old noggin, and I believe her name was dagna. That would be cool if the setting gave enough time for either zerlinda's baby or for that matter oghren's kid to get a mention. Or maybe a side quest.

[nightscrawl]

Uthenera wrote...

Isn't her name Dagna? She is a daughter of a smith,or was there's a chance that she loose her status, when she go up. Maybe if she will be a daughter of a deshyr she would be able to have some influence over the situation, but the chance that she will be important at some point is there. It would be nice to know what happened with Zerlinda, i think that was the name of the disowned daughter, and with her son, who was promised to became a sqire for the Warden.

Since leaving to go to the surface, she is now a casteless surface dwarf. She will have no influence with the dwarves in Orzammar. If you talk to her father after having sent her to the circle, he will be very angry, tell you that his daughter is now lost to him forever and can never return, and then throws you out of his store.

[Tpiom]

My wish is that they are skipped. We already know them well enough. There's, countless, species and races that we haven't encountered yet... I hope?

They should kill them off. All dwarves are exterminated - now that would be something!

Modifié par Tpiom, 27 mars 2012 - 11:26 .

[nightscrawl]

Tpiom wrote...

They should kill them off. All dwarves are exterminated - now that would be something!

You are like the fourth person to make such a suggestion in this thread. I don't really understand it...

[esper]

Tpiom wrote...

My wish is that they are skipped. We already know them well enough. There's, countless, species and races that we haven't encountered yet... I hope?

They should kill them off. All dwarves are exterminated - now that would be something!

Actually there are only the Fex.