71 réponses à ce sujet

[eschilde]

David Gaider wrote...

Taritu wrote...
if there's a DAO 2, I'd LOVE to see lyrium addiction.  I mean, the way I had Wynne and Morrigan swilling back lyrium...

So would I. The implementation we had was that, if the addiction developed, the use of lyrium had diminishing returns. You needed more and got less. The problem we encountered, as you point out, is that mages pretty much needed to drink lyrium potions. Addiction was practically guaranteed. So there needed to be some method of dealing with the addiction without rendering it pointless, and ideally some kind of story implication...

...and you can see why it suddenly became costly. If we could come up with some other implementation that was meaningful, I'd like to see return in the future -- it was something templar characters were meant to face as well as mages, after all. Suggestions would be welcome... though perhaps in another thread.

Well, there were a couple of options to reduce lyrium intake, like that mana leech spell and regeneration. It would have been nice to maybe see a trance-type skill for the mages, where they could restore mana at an increased rate without lyrium intake at the cost of not being able to move/cast.

I have to say, with the templars, I didn't really see the effects of lyrium use with their skills.. for example, there's no way to boost spell effects by ingesting lyrium, since lyrium potions are useless for non-magic users.

[Dark83]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Actually, come to think of it, does anyone notice just before the Genlock Rogues sneak up on you, you actually hear them growling?
That might be your senses tingling.

I do notice. I always pop stealth at that point, and mind blast works too.

[Deflagratio]

David Gaider wrote...

Taritu wrote...
if there's a DAO 2, I'd LOVE to see lyrium addiction.  I mean, the way I had Wynne and Morrigan swilling back lyrium...

So would I. The implementation we had was that, if the addiction developed, the use of lyrium had diminishing returns. You needed more and got less. The problem we encountered, as you point out, is that mages pretty much needed to drink lyrium potions. Addiction was practically guaranteed. So there needed to be some method of dealing with the addiction without rendering it pointless, and ideally some kind of story implication...

...and you can see why it suddenly became costly. If we could come up with some other implementation that was meaningful, I'd like to see return in the future -- it was something templar characters were meant to face as well as mages, after all. Suggestions would be welcome... though perhaps in another thread.

Well, Not to sound like an elitist ****, but "Needed" might be an overstatement! WIth Blood Mage Specialization, I've drank maybe 4 Lesser lyrium Potions through the game on Nightmare. This puts some interesting (And perhaps unintended) allure to Blood Magic, and fortifies it's lore about it being A) Very powerful and a way to reinforce your abilities in any Magical school.  Half my injuries come from self sustained crushing prison blunders with Blood Magic on. Or the AI going nuts with curative spells while I am on someone else, so it's not without risk. (The AI problem was fixed when I got enough tactic slots to set Mana<10% ACTIVATE Blood Magic, and Health<25% DEACTIVATE, lol)

[alexandros777]

Interesting ideas. I love the consequences. But sometimes they can be frustrating. (like weapons breaking in other games)



Mana pools would need to be much deeper or regen higher to have any addiction going on in the game.







And if lyrium is deadly to mages, why no lyrium tipped arrows?

[eschilde]

alexandros777 wrote...

Interesting ideas. I love the consequences. But sometimes they can be frustrating. (like weapons breaking in other games)

Mana pools would need to be much deeper or regen higher to have any addiction going on in the game.



And if lyrium is deadly to mages, why no lyrium tipped arrows?

It's deadly as a side effect of addiction. I think shooting lyrium tipped arrows at them would give them temporary mana boosts instead. You'd probably kill them before they died of substance abuse :b

Another idea: willpower affecting mana regen rather than/as well as total mana.

[David Gaider]

alexandros777 wrote...
And if lyrium is deadly to mages, why no lyrium tipped arrows?

Raw lyrium is deadly, not the refined lyrium you see in potions. If you could get raw lyrium, and somehow prevent the archer from being similarly affected by it, then yes -- that would be an effective weapon against a mage.

Unless it happens to be the wacky raw lyrium you encounter in one point of the game, which in fact restores a mage's mana rather than driving them insane. I think of that stuff as SPACE LYRIUM and try not to think about it.

[AtreiyaN7]

ReubenLiew wrote...

Actually, come to think of it, does anyone notice just before the Genlock Rogues sneak up on you, you actually hear them growling?
That might be your senses tingling.

Yeah, I've noticed that growling thing too.

[ToJKa1]

David Gaider wrote...

alexandros777 wrote...
And if lyrium is deadly to mages, why no lyrium tipped arrows?

Raw lyrium is deadly, not the refined lyrium you see in potions. If you could get raw lyrium, and somehow prevent the archer from being similarly affected by it, then yes -- that would be an effective weapon against a mage.

Unless it happens to be the wacky raw lyrium you encounter in one point of the game, which in fact restores a mage's mana rather than driving them insane. I think of that stuff as SPACE LYRIUM and try not to think about it.

The Fade lyrium veins i can understand, but the ones in the real world just plainly contradict the codex entry i got five minutes into the game (with mage origin, that is). Gameplay > realism/lore, but some consistency would be nice. Due to the codex entry, it also took me quite a while before i dared to move my mages close to them

Modifié par ToJKa1, 04 décembre 2009 - 03:32 .

[BooPi]

I would have *so* loved lyrium addiction in the game.



Also, companions needing to battle the taint sickness. Maybe even a side quest trying to get them medicine to avoid the chance of losing them in a joining... You know, to what lengths (moral or not) would you go to save your precious Leliana? Or better yet, Morrigan. Oh, you think we should aid the weak and sick now, do you? Do you?



DLC, anyone? I'd buy it.

[Pyrusx]

The exposed lyrium in the game was definitely a bit disappointing; reading about how dangerous it is in its raw form, then... what the hell, it heals me? I was pretty much expecting my character to melt when I finally touched it the first time.

[TheRealIncarnal]

Yes, I've wondered why it is that none of my companions develop the taint. They all get covered in Darkspawn blood. I was just kind of expecting an explanation as to why my group would not be effected by the taint.



Also, I'd love to see the Lyrium addiction take place of the game, I think it would help balance out the mage class and provide more power to blood magic and alternative methods of mana regeneration. Perhaps someone with a bit of skill will be able to modify the game for that.

[trh5001]

I think lyrium addiction could be a good idea but would probably just get annoying after awhile like the broken weapons in Baldur's Gate. Yes I understand there was an iron shortage and blah blah blah I hated having to constantly get new weapons in that game, also yes I know that magical weapons did not break, It was cool at first but got old fast. Whatever system they implement would have to be something better than an addiction-cure-addiction-cure cycle. If it is just a simple cycle like that then no one would ever consider addiction a problem cause it would be easily cured.

[Sandiel]

I think you were on the right track, Mr. Gaider, with diminishing returns to an extent, but I'd cause it to lower your *natural* mana regen, eventually freezing it all together so you have to *rely* on lyrium to get your mana back. Basically, force the player to pace their lyrium use a little better in combination with their mana regen and risk 'addiction', when mana regen reaches zero and the mage becomes incapable of natural regen until 'camp'. Something like that. I think inhibiting the mages natural regeneration for the quick 'high' of lyrium is kinda thematic.

As for the taint, this totally slipped my mind and it shouldn't have. I wonder why I never thought about it.

Modifié par Sandiel, 04 décembre 2009 - 04:47 .

[Taritu]

Maybe have it on fight timer - first potion in a fight full effect, reduced effect per potion after.



Or a larger mana pool, 2 or 3 times larger than the current one, and real addiction as per your original intention. Run the timer "per fight" for withdrawal from the addiction, so if someone goes X number of fights without using potions, their addiction improves. If in camp during fights, timer still runs, so you can do mage swap outs between major sections. "Well, you're strung out. I'll use the other mage. You stay here and twitch some, and everyone else in camp, don't let her have any drugs!"

[David Gaider]

Sandiel wrote...
I think you were on the right track, Mr. Gaider, with diminishing returns to an extent, but I'd cause it to lower your *natural* mana regen, eventually freezing it all together so you have to *rely* on lyrium to get your mana back. Basically, force the player to pace their lyrium use a little better in combination with their mana regen and risk 'addiction', when mana regen reaches zero and the mage becomes incapable of natural regen until 'camp'. Something like that. I think inhibiting the mages natural regeneration for the quick 'high' of lyrium is kinda thematic.

That's not a bad idea.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

...and you can see why it suddenly became costly. If we could come up with some other implementation that was meaningful, I'd like to see return in the future -- it was something templar characters were meant to face as well as mages, after all. Suggestions would be welcome... though perhaps in another thread.

Given how the game describes the lyrium addiction, perhaps it could be something like character receiving a debuff to willpower, magic and cunning once they develop the addiction? The debuff would be removed by the very act of drinking the lyrium potion, and would re-appear after the while. The strength of the debuff and the time for it to re-appear could be tied to how severe addiction the character has developed and/or when was the last time they had their lyrium fix. And/or to how big the said fix was.

It wouldn't have much effect on the gameplay given the mages drink this stuff frequently in combat so the debuff wouldn't be really present when it'd hurt the most... but it still would be there in the background, reminding the player that such thing actually exists.

[Iller54]

Morrigan: So.....you got any lyrium potions ?

Me: What ? Why ?

Morrigan: Oh no reason. Just....could really go for some right now.

Me: No sorry we ran out.

Morrigan: RAN OUT !? no no no we couldnt have run out...just a drop...any empty bottles around here ? common...ill do anything for some lyrium...



New romance twist ?

[Korva]

BooPi wrote...

I would have *so* loved lyrium addiction in the game.

Also, companions needing to battle the taint sickness. Maybe even a side quest trying to get them medicine to avoid the chance of losing them in a joining... You know, to what lengths (moral or not) would you go to save your precious Leliana? Or better yet, Morrigan. Oh, you think we should aid the weak and sick now, do you? Do you?

DLC, anyone? I'd buy it.

I'd buy that in a heartbeat, too, because both lyrium addiction and dealing with the risk of the taint to party members would definitely make things feel more "real" and meaningful.

Mages do not "have to" chug lyrium potions. I mean look at warriors and rogues who, for whatever reason (*pokes Biowarians*) have no way to replenish stamina on demand unless you count gobbling up dozens of shrooms. They get by somehow anyway, even if it involves cursing and anxious waiting to regenerate enough to use a vital ability again. If mages had to manage their power-resource as the other two classes do, it would make them less out of line and more tactical; it'd also make using traps and grenades more appealing which would be a good thing IMO.

Wynne has quaffed less than a dozen lesser lyrium potions in my game, I think, and she was the first companion I picked up right after Lothering. Yes, this is Normal and the number would likely go up quite a bit on Nightmare, but since most of Wynne's mana goes into healing I could just use more health poultices, too.

[FedericoV]

David Gaider wrote...

Taritu wrote...
if there's a DAO 2, I'd LOVE to see lyrium addiction.  I mean, the way I had Wynne and Morrigan swilling back lyrium...

So would I. The implementation we had was that, if the addiction developed, the use of lyrium had diminishing returns. You needed more and got less. The problem we encountered, as you point out, is that mages pretty much needed to drink lyrium potions. Addiction was practically guaranteed. So there needed to be some method of dealing with the addiction without rendering it pointless, and ideally some kind of story implication...

...and you can see why it suddenly became costly. If we could come up with some other implementation that was meaningful, I'd like to see return in the future -- it was something templar characters were meant to face as well as mages, after all. Suggestions would be welcome... though perhaps in another thread.

I know that you have asked to post suggestion in another thread... but it's too tempting to reply in *that* thread to avoid the chance .

About lyrium potions and dependency. Having a companion that has developed a lyrium dependency and sidequest about it would be very fun and interesting. Having a game mechanic for such characther would be fun and interesting.

But imho, having a general game mechanic about lyrium dependency would not be that fun, and if you could cure it in camp like the other poster suggested would be pointless in terms of  game challenge.

In general, I do not like potion spamming. And I hope that in the next iterations of the game lyrium potion would become something rare to use only in boss fights situation (I played that way and it wasd really more fun and tactical).

I understand that in the current game potion spamming is a necessary "evil", but i hope that if you realize another game or an expansion you could consider the option of adding a 5th slot in the party, so it could be easier to have a "support" caster without having to leave behind a rogue or a support tank... in that way it would be easier and more fun to manage mana and stamina (and maybe pump a little bit spells like regeneration and so on).

Btw, I love the game: thanks for the great work!

Modifié par FedericoV, 04 décembre 2009 - 10:34 .

[Walina]

David Gaider wrote...

alexandros777 wrote...
And if lyrium is deadly to mages, why no lyrium tipped arrows?

Raw lyrium is deadly, not the refined lyrium you see in potions. If you could get raw lyrium, and somehow prevent the archer from being similarly affected by it, then yes -- that would be an effective weapon against a mage.

Unless it happens to be the wacky raw lyrium you encounter in one point of the game, which in fact restores a mage's mana rather than driving them insane. I think of that stuff as SPACE LYRIUM and try not to think about it.

That's rare from me but M. Gaider I liked a lot a side quest in the X, it was about an orphenage and you have to help a templar. Really too bad, that quest was too short.

[DarkSpiral]

BooPi wrote...

I would have *so* loved lyrium addiction in the game.

Also, companions needing to battle the taint sickness. Maybe even a side quest trying to get them medicine to avoid the chance of losing them in a joining... You know, to what lengths (moral or not) would you go to save your precious Leliana? Or better yet, Morrigan. Oh, you think we should aid the weak and sick now, do you? Do you?

DLC, anyone? I'd buy it.

BooPi, you win the prize.  A sidequest dealing with your loved one getting sick?  Hell yes.

They did something similar to this in BG2, I recall.  Only with a specific love interest of course, but it was one of those moments that I felt personally involved.  Like with Howe and my Human Noble, actually.  Oh man, did I want that guy dead.

Or early in Fable2, when some bandit chief kicked my dog.  I killed that turkey with predjudice.

[LynxAQ]

Sorry but I have to disagree with David. Mages do not need to chain chug lyrium potions at all. Players who pump every stat into Magic and don't put a single stat into Willpower, should have a very small mana pool and should go out of mana quickly.



They choose not to put points into will power then they should suffer otherwise you have effectively made will power a pointless (along with constitution atm) attribute. Why not just remove both those stats? Most people would barely notice their removal.



I think (especially for the higher difficulties), lyrium potions need to have higher cooldowns and need to share cooldowns with all size lyrium potions.



I recently defeated the High Dragon and Arch Demon with Morrigan not using a single Lyrium potion, so this notion that they NEED them is ludicrous. Mana management is key, along with mass rejuvinate and spell bloom.



By making Lyrium potions so common, cheap to make etc you have effectively made Willpower, Spell Bloom, Rejuvinate, Mass Rejuvinate and any other mana restoring spell (including Wynnes plot spell) completely and utterly irrelevent and obsolete. And imo when you have 1 thing in a game making loads of other things in a game pointless, it is bad game design.