492 réponses à ce sujet

[kbct]

There are so many examples in so many fields that art has been changed to appeal to the buyers.

[OriginalTibs]

I agree the artist should stand sure so long as it was the artist's chosen ending.

However, if the artist's chosen ending was chopped off because of cost or length, or for the sake of future profits selling DLC, then it was a business decision and not a decision of art.

The way it plays, it doesn't look like the cut was crafted by the same artists who made the rest of the series. It looks like the ending was truncated unnaturally, and the artists then had to cauterize the wound... unless it really was indoctrination and Bioware has a rabbit in that top hat they keep pointing toward.

Modifié par OriginalTibs, 25 mars 2012 - 03:02 .

[Heather Cline]

Game endings have been changed before. Fallout 3 comes to mind with Broken Steel. Then there are the changes that were made to other video games because of fan outrage. Sorry but this whole 'it sets a precedence and will destroy video games for a long time to come' is utter bull.

[Zalbik]

Enough with the ART bull crap. It is a product sold for profit. Many consumers are upset and feel the product was a failure.

[Icinix]

Zalbik wrote...

Enough with the ART bull crap. It is a product sold for profit. Many consumers are upset and feel the product was a failure.

I'm not sure when it happened - but if games are truly art, they are the most precious form of Art in the whole universe. No other art has ever claimed to be so above every other type of art.

Also - Art can and does fail.

ME3 as Art - Failed.

..although as a die hard conspiracy theoriest I sitll think it was intended to fail all along.

[johnnybravo2]

bioware made promises they did not keep. they lied to their fans.

u say video games is a form of art.... but so is alot of things even food and how its served could be considered art. Does a costumer have the right to complain if something is wrong?

there are so many different forms of art. video games are different because they can be changed through dlc most other art forms cant just simply change but video games can.

the fans of mass effect also help make the game by giving support through purchasing items or giving ideas.

so if you are bioware and your fans are telling you to fix the ending because it does not follow the ME way, you should listen because it is easy to fix through dlc and lots of fans will not give their support to bioware for future projects.

[Thomas Andresen]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ME and games in general are not art so your OP is pointless.

BioWare says differently.

[Hunter of Legends]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ME and games in general are not art so your OP is pointless.

BioWare says differently.

The customers decide what the product is, not the sellers.

[Thatguyky]

If you want to make "art" get out of the video game industry. Start painting, making music, or sculpting, do something other than making video games.

[Pain Train]

Do not add DLC or patches as that will alter your "art" too. Oh wait, we were told to buy more DLC as the big ending for finishing the game on a simple popup screen....Hmmmm... Why does the word hypocrisy keep coming to mind...

[Mole267]

Zalbik wrote...

Enough with the ART bull crap. It is a product sold for profit. Many consumers are upset and feel the product was a failure.

ME3 is definitely not a failure, and people are going too far if they're saying that. It's a great game, until it falls short at the end. Makes it an 8 out of 10 for me. IMO, RAGE's ending was far worse than ME3's. I also didn't care for STALKER's ending, but at least it actually had closure.

EA/BioWare do not strike me as dumb, they knew exactly where they were going. They did ME3's ending how they did, because it would create more interest in possible future DLC. We live in a world of business, and boardroom suits who like money. They'd probably eat money like a salad it if they could.

Modifié par Mole267, 25 mars 2012 - 03:52 .

[Rockworm503]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ME and games in general are not art so your OP is pointless.

BioWare says differently.

They'll say anything to save face or gain sales.

[hurricaneez2]

No one is gonna force people who liked the existing ending to buy a DLC that expands on it. So why do people care if Bioware makes one for people who dont accept the ending as currently constituted? Makes no sense to me.

[nevar00]

Jesus Christ this blatant bs is really starting to aggravate me. This "art" argument is an atrocity. Plot holes, dues ex machina, and false promises are NOT ART. They are bad writing and lies.

We live in such a self-entitled "please me" society these days. BIOWARE, you made these games.

MADE THEM FOR CUSTOMERS. Holy ****.

DO NOT alter your art. Look at the state of the Star Wars series with all the crappy revisions over the years.

Are you implying Lucas is altering Star Wars due to fan request? How deluded are you?

On that topic, one very good author wrote a book about that situation. It was Stephen King, and the book was "Misery". The woman found her favorite author crippled and kept the author all locked up and in his bed and would re-break his legs b/c she was never happy with what he was doing with her favorite character.

Another author lived the life of this situation. Sir Arthur Doyle, who killed of Sherlock Holmes and then brought him back when outraged fans berated him in letters.

We were told there would be 16 different endings. We were told our decisions would matter. For us being invested in this series and buying the titles, it goes without saying that there should be a satisfying ending expected. There most certainly was not, as not only were our decisions unnecessary but were rendered meaningless as well.

You know what else is art?  A "BUY MOAR DLC" add to finish the game.  You know what else is art?  Having a journalist play herself in the game for hype and publicity.  You know what else is art?  The book Mass Effect Deception, even if it's a complete mess and- OH WAIT.  THEY'RE FIXING IT BECAUSE IT'S ****ING ATROCIOUS.  

There is art. And then there is plot hole-ridden, dues ex machina-using, nihilistic pseudo-philosophical hipster bull**** riding on a wave of lies and false promises. Mass Effect 3's final level is the latter.

Modifié par nevar00, 25 mars 2012 - 04:05 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Zalbik wrote...

Enough with the ART bull crap. It is a product sold for profit. Many consumers are upset and feel the product was a failure.

Honestly it's both. That said, people need to realize that Art is SUBJECTIVE. Calling it Art doesn't make it above criticism or even demands that it should be fixed. The second you start selling your art for profit, especially as a massed produced product, you've open the door to criticisms from your consumer base.

Thomas Andresen wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ME and games in general are not art so your OP is pointless.

BioWare says differently.

Bioware also said the ending would have closure and that the leaked scripts were completely outdated, and that you don't need to play multiplayer to get the "best" ending. 

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 25 mars 2012 - 04:05 .

[Mole267]

hurricaneez2 wrote...

No one is gonna force people who liked the existing ending to buy a DLC that expands on it. So why do people care if Bioware makes one for people who dont accept the ending as currently constituted? Makes no sense to me.

Well, it's like the "From Ashes" DLC. Sure it's optional, but then you feel like the game won't be complete without it.

[Looper128]

Dont change the ending just prolong it aka indoctrination theory.

btw why should BW listen to OP when he dont even own the game *rolls eyes*

[nikki191]

i dont remember a kick up when the time limit was removed from fallout due to customer complaints, and people seemed to support the ending change in fallout 3. changing the ending in games, books or movies due to customer feedback has happened before this and it will happen after this.

frankly any artistic integetry went out the door when this ending was allowed to pass in the first place

[logan23tom78]

jaysabz wrote...

Listen, I haven't even finished the game yet, been travelling, but please read on.

I do check IGN's mobile site from my phone here and there and have learned about this "uprising" to change the ME3 ending.

PLEASE, PLEASE, Please do not change the game's ending (sight unseen for me) just because of these protests! 

If you do, where do we go from there??

We live in such a self-entitled "please me" society these days.  BIOWARE, you made these games.  I understand the need to please your customers - I myself am in the service industry.  But PLEASE do not fold to the demands of the loud social networking / internet crowd.  It will set a dangerous precedent.

Even within the realm of video games... NOOO... we want character "X" (FFVII) to live...

...NOOO... we want character "X" to survive in Halo Reach....

Where will it stop? 

DO NOT alter your art.  Look at the state of the Star Wars series with all the crappy revisions over the years.

Tell your player base to "DEAL WITH IT" ... 

I've read TONS of books that I hoped ended differently.  I never wrote to the author of a book and demanded he or she rewrite the ending to meet my demands.

On that topic, one very good author wrote a book about that situation.  It was Stephen King, and the book was "Misery".  The woman found her favorite author crippled and kept the author all locked up and in his bed and would re-break his legs b/c she was never happy with what he was doing with her favorite character.

Dont' fall down this wormhole, BIoWare.   Please don't.  You made the art which is Mass Effect 3.  Don't alter it due to some loudmouth advocates.  Not all video games are "art", but the Mass Effect series certainly is.  To quote a line from my favorite movie, Rushmore... "nihilne sanc­tum est"...  "Is nothing sacred?"

Do the right thing, BioWare.

A big fan of yours for years....

Jason

My question is it art if the publisher places a deadline and budget that actually causes the developers to think in the way of what can be done verse an art view where you would have more freedom.

Is it art if it makes no sense in relations to the rest of the piece.

ME3 is part Art and part Product.

If someone tells me that they are going to paint me a picture of a mountain landscape that will be pleasent but then delivers a painting to matches this but in one corner there is fire and demons as well as monsters in the back ground eating people......

When that person goes to the artist and says,..wait you said you will paint a pleasent landscape.....

Artist said yes I did

Person says what about the corner with all the fire and death in it....it doesn't make sense or match the theme i was being told you were painting..

Artist says---Its my artistic view....Can't be changed due to being ART,....what?!

There are some things that just don't work in relation to the Mass effect themes.....these are why people are asking about the fix ending DLC.

[translationninja]

jaysabz wrote...

translationninja wrote...

With the art BS again.

Arthur Conan Doyle has been mentioned a lot, fewer people know that J.R.R Tolkien retcon'ed The Hobbit to make it play into LOTR better, cheez lawees why are some people so afraid of customers of a big corporation being able to tell them what they want?

I'm sorry if I'm being misunderstood here.  I DO believe that customers of a big corporation should be able to tell them what they want.

What I'm afraid of is this:   if this "change ME3's ending" campaign succeeds, who knows where it will end.

What if we don't like Halo 4's ending?  GTA5?  BioShock:  Infinite?

I understand that consumers at times have legit complaints.  But if these companies allow the vocal internet crowd to alter their completed games (books, movies, etc.) then what is real when it comes to that game, book or movie?

I understand that video games, in the DLC area, are the mediums most susceptible to this.  But with many of the other mediums changing (e.g., books through Kindle, movies through the 'net) are these pieces going to be ever-changing? 

Can I complete a video game and know it's complete?  Can I finish a book and know I've read it, without having to check every few months if a "new ending" or "additional content" is available for it??

That is my fear.  I'd hope that at least some of you share that fear with me.

I doubt this would become standard operating procedure whenever a few hundred whiners don't like this or that.

This ME3 fiasco is a whole different animal though. 10s of thousands of people saying something is **** usually means it really is ****. I can agree with you that under normal circumstances I'd consider all this a big hubbub.

However, the last 10 minutes of ME3 are just so blatantly out of whack on so many different levels that I simple feel cheated out of my money. Bait 'n' switched if you will. And this is a concern that must be remedied or this company will not see a single cent out of me anymore.

Modifié par translationninja, 25 mars 2012 - 11:07 .

[da mighty rEAper]

MASS EFFECT 3

}(+){

-dialogue choices are lot less but differ greatly compared to rest of the trilogy
-better controls(cover usage, running, tumbles)
-character relationship feels more alive( both between crew members and shep with his/her LI )

}(-){

-story is silly (that crucible **** is so dumb)
-tailored for multiplayer
-retarded and uninteresting sidequests(eavesdropping)
-plot of other trilogy games was changed for some retarded( or just extremely bad executed) technological singularity idea
-despite refusing they still failed with day one dlc, as to there is no reason to not include such valuable content in the game
-reapers are dumb (oh hi dere Sovereign)
-Cerberus and TIM storywise potential is COMPLETELY WASTED
-retarded antagonist (that asian assassin is so retarded, i almost felt like i was watching some stupid anime)

thats not all



http://geek.pikimal....t-name-release/

thats not all

[philippe willaume]

jaysabz wrote...

Listen, I haven't even finished the game yet, been travelling, but please read on.

I do check IGN's mobile site from my phone here and there and have learned about this "uprising" to change the ME3 ending.

PLEASE, PLEASE, Please do not change the game's ending (sight unseen for me) just because of these protests! 

If you do, where do we go from there??

We live in such a self-entitled "please me" society these days.  BIOWARE, you made these games.  I understand the need to please your customers - I myself am in the service industry.  But PLEASE do not fold to the demands of the loud social networking / internet crowd.  It will set a dangerous precedent.

Even within the realm of video games... NOOO... we want character "X" (FFVII) to live...

...NOOO... we want character "X" to survive in Halo Reach....

Where will it stop? 

DO NOT alter your art.  Look at the state of the Star Wars series with all the crappy revisions over the years.

Tell your player base to "DEAL WITH IT" ... 

I've read TONS of books that I hoped ended differently.  I never wrote to the author of a book and demanded he or she rewrite the ending to meet my demands.

On that topic, one very good author wrote a book about that situation.  It was Stephen King, and the book was "Misery".  The woman found her favorite author crippled and kept the author all locked up and in his bed and would re-break his legs b/c she was never happy with what he was doing with her favorite character.

Dont' fall down this wormhole, BIoWare.   Please don't.  You made the art which is Mass Effect 3.  Don't alter it due to some loudmouth advocates.  Not all video games are "art", but the Mass Effect series certainly is.  To quote a line from my favorite movie, Rushmore... "nihilne sanc­tum est"...  "Is nothing sacred?"

Do the right thing, BioWare.

A big fan of yours for years....

Jason

I am not sure about art but for a rational conversation you do need to

know what you are talking about, so go through the endings and then comment.
know what you are talking about, so read what people find bad about the ending.
that is all you need to make an educated opinion.

hopefully you'll find that totally regardless of the artistic direction that are problem with the quality of the delivery of the ending and that it does not match the advertised product. to makes matters worse the rest of the game is so good that it makes the ending even more painfull.

phil