492 réponses à ce sujet

[survivor_686]

With all due respect, who's to say art cannot incorporate the suggestion and ideals of its viewers.

Is it art to encourage customers to participate in your universe only to slam the door in their face and immediately declare them to be wrong? Is it art to promise your customers one thing and then deliver a completely different experience?

[What a Succulent Ass]

OP, your argument is nonsense.

...Actually, there really isn't an argument.

[durasteel]

No, if you rush a game out with a half-baked ending that makes no damn sense, then "art has been lost." If you strip elements and characters out of a game in order to squeeze it into a tight production schedule, art has been lost. If you have a proven artistic process that consistently produces high-quality work, but bypass that process because you don't have enough time and instead you just count on "Lots of Speculation From Everyone" to fill in gaping plot holes, art has been lost.

When a company responds to their consumers who are dissatisfied with their product, and produces a quality bit of content to replace something that they didn't have time to do right previously... art is restored.

Modifié par durasteel, 30 mars 2012 - 04:44 .

[GamerrangerX]

OP go back whatever hole you crawl at

[InvincibleHero]

durasteel wrote...

No, if you rush a game out with a half-baked ending that makes no damn sense, then "art has been lost." If you strip elements and characters out of a game in order to squeeze it into a tight production schedule, art has been lost. If you have a proven artistic process that consistently produces high-quality work, but bypass that process because you don't have enough time and instead you just count on "Lots of Speculation From Everyone" to fill in gaping plot holes, art has been lost.

When a company responds to their consumers who are dissatisfied with their product, and produces a quality bit of content to replace something that they didn't have time to do right previously... art is restored.

No the quality of the product may suffer if things are cut/rushed or poorly implemented. The art remains the same. This is the wriitng and the music and such. The visuals are enough to illustrate what they want so if those convey meaningful info and th story well then it too is adequate.

No customer is satiated by having their demand met over the artist needs in creating the work of art to begin with.

[Kaija]

This addresses the art issue very well:
http://www.gamefront...compromise-art/

[InvincibleHero]

Kaija wrote...

This addresses the art issue very well:
http://www.gamefront...compromise-art/

It doesn't matter what subjective reasons people dredge up to support their POV. All that matters is the forcing of BW to change their art. They think they had adeqaute endings and obviously they included them to suit their needs. When the artist doesn't want to change then you are making unreasonable demands. Really I think it presumptuous to tell anyone to rewrite any media as if i know how to best utilize their property. Any suggestion I make (and this would apply to everyone) would reflect my wants, needs, and biases to subsume those of the creator.

[I am KROGAN]

http://img3.ranker.c...owpoke-meme.jpg

Congrats OP, you are truly a visionary, ahead of your time.

[Kaija]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Kaija wrote...

This addresses the art issue very well:
http://www.gamefront...compromise-art/

It doesn't matter what subjective reasons people dredge up to support their POV. All that matters is the forcing of BW to change their art. They think they had adeqaute endings and obviously they included them to suit their needs. When the artist doesn't want to change then you are making unreasonable demands. Really I think it presumptuous to tell anyone to rewrite any media as if i know how to best utilize their property. Any suggestion I make (and this would apply to everyone) would reflect my wants, needs, and biases to subsume those of the creator.

While this is true in some art forms to apply it to other mediums as some sort of steadfast rule is not conductive to the interactive artform that the gaming industry is. It's ignoring the fact that games are the creation of many people, including the people who play them.

[Reo onx]

I just beat mass effect three and I would like to say thank you to bioware for what really is one if the best games that I have ever played I,my family and friends have been huge fans of mass effect games from day one and we all appreciate every ounce of thought and care in which the bioware staff have put into into the franchise it is expressed with love and care not only to the story but also the fans.No other company that I know of would even take what the fans say into consideration after the fact which sets bioware apart from other companys.

with that being said mass effect 3 was awsome however the end did not only frustrate myself,my family and friends that I recommended the game to.

our thoughts shepard should have had the option to L trigger to resist shooting captain anderson it was said from the first game that shepard had a strong will.

2.There should have been an option to oppose the catalyst paragon shepard would have never listend to someone that commeted a mass genoside of the galaxy every cycle and the catalyst(the glowing child) should have been the final boss battle which was greatly missed we all thought that the catalyst was going to turn on you when it didnt get its way and was trying to indoctronate you when he fails he turns the citadel against shepard how epic would that have been the only hope that shepard had for the galaxy was in actualaty the very thing that was destroying it.

3.when shepard wins if anderson is shot you drag him out while the citadel is being destroyed around you if you L trigger you run back to the light tunnel then when your in the light tunnel you have the option of hitting R3 and seeing the citadel going down then everything goes white and you are unsure if they made it out then cut to your crew(who wouldnt have left shepard) searching for shepard and anderson when they find them they look dead but shepard breathes and they start shouting for medics and saying that they are not going to make it cut to whats left of the councle or a newly appointed council and have them thank shepard and offer a councle position to shepard which you can take or give to bailey.

4.And finaly full closure with your entier crew thats left and love interests it would also be nice if you could go thru your ship like in two and hear there finale thoughts on a job well done and not have to go back to your last save file before you beat it

in conclusion it's not about changeing the ending its about adding to the ending that you already have those our hopes for the end im no writer and I have nothing but the highest respect for what bioware has accomplished my family friends and I are nobodys and chances are no one else will read this but We thank you for the chance to be be heard and hope for the best.If by any chance someone out there is reading this and agrees with what we are saying please cut and paste this to as many bioware forums or face book as possible if not disregard lol thanks.

[abaris]

InvincibleHero wrote...

The art remains the same. This is the wriitng and the music and such. The visuals are enough to illustrate what they want so if those convey meaningful info and th story well then it too is adequate.

The writing obviously is the problem. The writing came up with that kind of ending. And literature, if we really want to talk about an artform here, has very strict rules when it comes to plotholes and the deus ex machina approach.

[LeftyLike2]

I don't think they should change the ending..not because it has anything to do with art..but because only they know what is going to happen in the future of Mass Effect..if the ending fits the future of Mass Effect, keep it..

That said..you can't see the difference between Mass Effect and Final Fantasy?

Final Fantasy and Halo will always end the same way, the same characters will alwasy die..and there is nothing you can do about it..
In Mass Effect you CAN change the outcome of the story and the fate of certain characters.
that is until...

So while i won't force anyone to change anything they tougth was a good ending, i can see the difference between people being upset by Mass Effect 3's ending, and being upset by the ending of a Final Fantasy game.

[InvincibleHero]

Kaija wrote...

While this is true in some art forms to apply it to other mediums as some sort of steadfast rule is not conductive to the interactive artform that the gaming industry is. It's ignoring the fact that games are the creation of many people, including the people who play them.

Why do people not understand you create nothing. You play a game where everything is created by BW. Sure you can craft a different playthrough (within choices BW gave you and limited variability at that) than others but that is the extent of it.

[InvincibleHero]

abaris wrote...

The writing obviously is the problem. The writing came up with that kind of ending. And literature, if we really want to talk about an artform here, has very strict rules when it comes to plotholes and the deus ex machina approach.

I am fine with your opinion that it is bad writing. Does that make it not art? Also does that give you the right to say change it? I think both answers are objectively no, but that's just my opinion don't go spreading it around. (Yes I realize the fallacy of calling it my opinion just to make a ME related joke.)

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 30 mars 2012 - 05:36 .

[Kaija]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Kaija wrote...

While this is true in some art forms to apply it to other mediums as some sort of steadfast rule is not conductive to the interactive artform that the gaming industry is. It's ignoring the fact that games are the creation of many people, including the people who play them.

Why do people not understand you create nothing. You play a game where everything is created by BW. Sure you can craft a different playthrough (within choices BW gave you and limited variability at that) than others but that is the extent of it.

Because actually you do. Bioware has over and over again offcially stated how they have taken fan response, player feedback, ect. into the creation of the series. In that way, yes, players are part of the creation.

[InvincibleHero]

Kaija wrote...

Because actually you do. Bioware has over and over again offcially stated how they have taken fan response, player feedback, ect. into the creation of the series. In that way, yes, players are part of the creation.

Metaphorical doesn't equal literal. We have a say before the product is finished (aka put in requests and BW picks and chooses) and not after except for bug remedies and gameplay fixes that are onjective in nature.

[PsyrenY]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ME and games in general are not art so your OP is pointless.

I take it you've never watched Extra Credits.

[Kaija]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Kaija wrote...

Because actually you do. Bioware has over and over again offcially stated how they have taken fan response, player feedback, ect. into the creation of the series. In that way, yes, players are part of the creation.

Metaphorical doesn't equal literal. We have a say before the product is finished (aka put in requests and BW picks and chooses) and not after except for bug remedies and gameplay fixes that are onjective in nature.

Look, I respect your opinion. I really do. However, continuing to refer to what are facts as "subjective, metaphorical" doesn't help your argument. Not addressing them weakens it. It is fact that concrete parts of the game are direct influence of the players. If you read the article I posted you can see they have valid points as well. Therefore the argument is valid.

Modifié par Kaija, 30 mars 2012 - 05:54 .

[rizuno]

Just wondering if OP has beaten the game yet, and if he hasn't, how is he avoiding the spoilers?

[What a Succulent Ass]

Optimystic_X wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ME and games in general are not art so your OP is pointless.

I take it you've never watched Extra Credits.

Games can most certainly be art (though it's a craft still in development), and BioWare clearly consider ME to be as much. They've even gone so far as to compare it to works like Brave New World and The Great Gatsby. If they're going to claim as such, then their product is open to artistic criticism, and there have been countless hours upon hours of fan analyses of why the ending doesn't work--not just why it's dissatisfying, but why it's narratively, thematically, and logically incoherent. These are not matters of opinion, but basic tenants of storytelling. When I finish a paper, a piece of writing, or a painting and have it critiqued by a professor or art colleague, I don't tell them I can't improve it because it would compromise my "artistic vision." A piece of art is a constant evolution toward delivering a message to an audience in the most effective manner--one can even argue that a piece of art is never really finished. Saying that changing the end is a "loss of integrity" is just 100% rubbish.

Whilst I wouldn't say fans are "entitled" to a new ending on principle alone, as consumers, they are entitled to answers as to why they weren't delivered the product they were promised.

Modifié par Random Jerkface, 30 mars 2012 - 06:02 .

[The Anti-Saint]

Oh wow, this thread's still going...shame.

[ile_1979]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Kaija wrote...

While this is true in some art forms to apply it to other mediums as some sort of steadfast rule is not conductive to the interactive artform that the gaming industry is. It's ignoring the fact that games are the creation of many people, including the people who play them.

Why do people not understand you create nothing. You play a game where everything is created by BW. Sure you can craft a different playthrough (within choices BW gave you and limited variability at that) than others but that is the extent of it.

Why is it that people don't understand that
1. If you create something and call it art, you don't sell it piece by piece on order to have the compleate work (again my Mona Lisa comparisson, it would be like painting the smile only and then charge extra for every other body part)?
2.You make a living by MANUFACTURING  this PRODUCT. Be it art or not, you missadvertized it. There are countries in the world where selling a product that does meet the aleged desing specifications is considered a crime you know? And no amount of art in it will get you out of a law suit.

[canarius]

They dont need to change it, they just need to add to it. Yes i'm talking about the indoctrination theory.

[Bone3ater]

Oh...we're still talking about art...?

*cleares throat*
Well, I myself am an artist (I kid you not), and I thi...

...yeah, I'm buckling outta here.

[BouncyCaitian]

*Put's a Bullet Through 'Art's' head*

Another damned indoctrinated. Shame about that.

*gets out the shovel and get's to work*