492 réponses à ce sujet

[What?]

Accism wrote...

(posted this in another thread, putting it here as this seems to be the main thread for discussing this issue)

I'm not sure where this "artistic integrity" thing keeps coming from, but let's try and put it to bed once and for all. Art has nothing to do with this issue, it is a red herring. Art is about a dialogue between creator and audience, it is not and never has been a one way street. All art forms change as a response to audience criticism. There are numerous examples from throughout history. Shakespeare rewrote many of his plays in response to audience reactions, such as The Taming of the Shrew and Troilus and Cressida. Tolkien rewrote The Hobbit after its first printing so it was more in line with universe depicted in the Lord of the Rings, anticipating reader confusion. TV shows *constantly* rewrite and change plans based on how the audience reacts to what's been shown, as anyone who watches a long running TV show will know. You don't even need to leave this very forum to find other examples: remember the strong negative fan reaction to the book Mass Effect: Deception? No one said anything about artistic integrity when BioWare said they'd change it in new editions/printing, did they?

In fact if anything, artistic integrity would be maintained by fixing the ending. As Mass Effect executive producer Casey Hudson himself said: "the fans are our co-creators". We're saying that for this work of art to truly matter, BioWare need to be courageous enough to make the decision to change the ending.

Also an extremely good point.

Modifié par VictorianTrash, 24 mars 2012 - 09:58 .

[batlin]

Hey OP, how do you feel about the common practice of a publisher demanding changes in a game?

[0rthod0x]

batlin wrote...

Hey OP, how do you feel about the common practice of a publisher demanding changes in a game?

Seems like the recurring argument for that one is that if they don't make the changes the publisher demands, then their game may not be published. How it affects the idea of "artistic integrity" is never really addressed so much as the argument that "when you become a publisher, you can demand changes."

[roflchoppaz]

First, this ending isn't "art" at all. It's a lazy rip-off, made to cash in on pre-orders asap, plain and simple. 

Second...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Who's Art?

Art Crow!

[Chaia]

If you had completed the game with its ending plot-holes and the overabundance of space mage galore, and still loved it and thought it as "art" (by the way, I like how you put it in "quote" marks) then fine, to each is own; however I'd just prefer that people actully complete the game before complaining about the people complaining about the ending.

The reason why I don't like the ending isn't because of a VS type situation were I have to make a hard choice, I'd be fine with that, its because of gaping plot holes and space magic which then proceeds to remind you to buy DLC, if you had completed the game you'd be able to see that. We've yet to see their fix in April but so far their only defence to it is that "ITS ARTTT!" even though up until now its been advitised as commercial/pop entertainment were fan feed back matters (Tali and Garrus LI status in ME2, Shepard able to be gay in ME3 along with Kaiden, heck even what hair colour the default FemShep would have in ME3)

Honestly, I'm quite interested to see what you think of the ending once you've actully seen the ending for yourself OP, and then write a truely honest post about the ending.

Modifié par Chaia, 24 mars 2012 - 10:54 .

[Starchs]

Darth Malice113 wrote...

Yeah OP. Bioware can keep its endings. I'll keep my money next time around.

Then we see how much they preach about "artistic integrity.

^

[ERWERman]

The art argument is a FAIL. When you sell it in millions of copies and have a team of dozens working on it with extensive alpha and beta testing to improve consumer satisfaction with the final goal of selling it to a wide audience it stops being art! I agree that the music in the game IS art and visuals are art but combined its just consumer product using artistic features to get better sales. Do you call cars art? If you do, then remember what Toyota did. Toyota withdrew like million cars because of an design/construction error... And that is like a 100 time stronger industry than gamin industry. Haha, they even call it gaming industry, i wonder why? Because of artistic expression? I dont think so xD

[jess05]

Fiish the game. Think about what you just experienced.

Then, look over all the promises that were made.


Then see what you think.

[Salis777]

Oh shut up about art, fking artists. When you get a paycheck in the mail, please

[Geckostu]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ME and games in general are not art so your OP is pointless.

the OP will understand that, if someone explains him the difference between art and entertainment

[Salis777]

Geckostu wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ME and games in general are not art so your OP is pointless.

the OP will understand that, if someone explains him the difference between art and entertainment

It's like this.

You manager says write ****, so you write ****.

[Nicodemus]

No artist in any medium gets better without criticism, and not everyone likes every bit of art created. History is FULL of artists who have changed the look, the ending, the vision of what they have created to appeal to as MANY people as possible. Bioware is no different from a multitude of "artists" that have come before them, or will come after them. At the end of the day they are hoping to create something that someone will buy and enjoy, except that in this instance what people have bought THEY ARE NOT ENJOYING.

To that end it is in the "artists" best interest to listen to the criticism and to address it in a prompt and coherent manner otherwise you risk biting the hand that feeds you.

[dado500]

I thought Picasso's paintings were crap, but then I saw ME3 endings.

[Salis777]

dado500 wrote...

I thought Picasso's paintings were crap, but then I saw ME3 endings.

rofl

[whiteraider]

There is no ART, it is a commercial project that was rushed to meet a commercial deadline...

At best it is commercial art, where I and others bought into the idea, and were then sold a pup that did not meet the original concept!

Please understand that my relationship with Bioware is commercial, I expect what they promised, I am not an arts patron, giving them I stipend to do with what they want!

[FatalX7.0]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ME and games in general are not art so your OP is pointless.

Yes, games are art. (Anything in the world can be art. It's like the saying, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder")

Aside from the fact that they were officially declared art several years ago, and some museums actually have galleries of video games, video games are made up of several traditional art forms.


Also, OP, beat the game before you give your opinion on the ending.

Modifié par FatalX7.0, 24 mars 2012 - 12:53 .

[PaddlePop]

VictorianTrash wrote...

Accism wrote...

(posted this in another thread, putting it here as this seems to be the main thread for discussing this issue)

I'm not sure where this "artistic integrity" thing keeps coming from, but let's try and put it to bed once and for all. Art has nothing to do with this issue, it is a red herring. Art is about a dialogue between creator and audience, it is not and never has been a one way street. All art forms change as a response to audience criticism. There are numerous examples from throughout history. Shakespeare rewrote many of his plays in response to audience reactions, such as The Taming of the Shrew and Troilus and Cressida. Tolkien rewrote The Hobbit after its first printing so it was more in line with universe depicted in the Lord of the Rings, anticipating reader confusion. TV shows *constantly* rewrite and change plans based on how the audience reacts to what's been shown, as anyone who watches a long running TV show will know. You don't even need to leave this very forum to find other examples: remember the strong negative fan reaction to the book Mass Effect: Deception? No one said anything about artistic integrity when BioWare said they'd change it in new editions/printing, did they?

In fact if anything, artistic integrity would be maintained by fixing the ending. As Mass Effect executive producer Casey Hudson himself said: "the fans are our co-creators". We're saying that for this work of art to truly matter, BioWare need to be courageous enough to make the decision to change the ending.

Also an extremely good point.

This! It's not "art" that's loosing but "INTELLIGENCE". If you're falling for the "artistic integrity" crap from Bioware, then you are a retard. Plain and simple.

[FatalX7.0]

FatalX7.0 wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ME and games in general are not art so your OP is pointless.

Yes, games are art. (Anything in the world can be art. It's like the saying, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder")

Aside from the fact that they were officially declared art several years ago, and some museums actually have galleries of video games, video games are made up of several traditional art forms.


Also, OP, beat the game before you give your opinion on the ending.

ALSO!

Bioware calls us CO-CREATORS and they have feedback threads where we can give suggestions on things that can be changed and fixed in their games.

So please, PLEASE, PLEAAAAAAASE, stop saying we can't change anything when Bioware says that we have always had a part in shaping their games. Other game companies do this too, and all game companies should do this.

It's us, the people who buy their games, that keep them in business.

Modifié par FatalX7.0, 24 mars 2012 - 01:00 .

[Subject M]

OP, Its strange how little some people know about art. Or should I say,the many variations and concepts this word encompases.

Unless you are referring to some kind of romantic conceptualization of the word, changing it, updating it or correcting it has nothing to do with it being art or not. Or if it loses artistic quality.

Some people might think that it is important that the vision of the creator is intact. I agree, but who is the creator of the mass effect story and what is the vision? Does the vision include satisfied customers? Does it include the work living up to certain standards and qualeties such as internal concistency? etc. If it does, then perhaps this ending was a mistake that ruins the larger art-object.

Modifié par Subject M, 24 mars 2012 - 01:19 .

[Alex_SM]

Are you (the ones talking about artistic integrity and all that stuff) sure you know what you are talking about?

We are talking about an art-form designed specifically to be sold to the masses. Designed using market research with target-consumers in mind. With features added just to appeal as much people as possible (multiplayer, Kinect). With the aesthetic presentation deliberately limited to be able to sell it to as many people as possible (otherwise consoles wouldn't be able to handle it) instead of being as ambitious as the artist could imagine. Why is that "artistic integrity" and pleasing the consumers is not? Why changing it because a CEO wants you to add something a market research says people think is cool is better than changing it because your fans hate part of it?

Who owns Mass Effect? Is that EA? Is that Bioware? Are the CEOs of Bioware/EA? The producers? Casey Hudson? Mac Walters? The whole team (including those who didn't had the chance to give their opinions)? Why not the ones who paid for?

The subject is not as simple as "it is art, so the creator vision is sacred", neither "is a product, so the consumer is always right", but a totally different thing.

We can't even know who were the real creators. That's more or less the same that happens to movies. Who is the real creator? The director? The writer? The producer who overrides many artistic decisions from both? The studio CEOs who decide the movie will be made? The actors who give their own vision to the character and even change parts of the script? The companies that make the movie change so their product placement makes sense? Everyone? No one?

How is that art (everyone considers movies to be art) is designed specifically to be sold the same as a product? How is that commercial decisions override artistic ones?

This is grey territory. The frontier between the art and the product is not well defined, the same goes for the ownership of the creation. Even less defined if we talk about videogames where the player's input is an important part of the experience.

Modifié par Alex_SM, 24 mars 2012 - 01:34 .

[Lord Gremlin]

I get it, OP. Basically until you finish the game it's impossible to imagine that ending. People are not doing things like this. There are no movies, books or games where writing suddenly gets thins bad at the end.
You're unable to believe until you see it. This is not art. This is a botch-job by 2 producers who shoved writer off. Or it looks like it, I doubt it was janitor's idea.

It wasn't, right?

[Taltherion]

It's always a question of perspective what is art ... I could also say if they don't change the endings, lazyness or cutting corners has won ... I would not call games - made for the purpose of selling thousands of copies to the masses - art.

Furthermore, if an artist does not want to starve, he or she always has to create art that - to a larger or lesser degree - caters to the taste of the customers. Bioware / EA being a company that wants to sell their "art" has the choice of sticking with their vision and incurring losses ... or changing / expanding it (if cleverly done, they even do not have to change it). There are even forms of art that are created by artist and "consumer" alike (like literary short stories with open endings or interpretations). But this is a game and the gamers want closure.
Is modern pop music art? Do you not think that producers tailor the songs to the tastes of the masses?

Yes, Bioware has the rigth to not change anything, to be true to their "art" - but very soon they will be in the role of the starving artist ... if that is what they want (and what you want) ... that's ok, too.

Besides, one could also argue that this game only becomes art by the actions of the players, too ... it's not a movie, but a game which invites decisions by the player and supposedly builds on them.

Modifié par Taltherion, 24 mars 2012 - 01:50 .

[FosterBr717]

As an author I would never change the ending to one of my stories, simply because of dissatisfaction from readers. It's MY story and I have the right to any creative freedom I choose. If someone doesn't like it, they don't need to read MY story. It doesn't give them a right to force ME to change the ending to MY story. Even if it is a bad ending, it's still MY bad ending. Go read someone else's story if you want a differnet ending.

Just my two cents. You guys are opening up a can of worms with creative story telling. Now anytime someone is dissastified with a book, movie, game, or song, they'll try and sue them to change it. "No, thank you" is what I say.

Creative freedom > Pleasing the masses

[Legion64]

Screw your stupid art theory. Damn hipsters don't know anything. Make the game better, damn it.

Modifié par Legion64, 24 mars 2012 - 01:51 .