320 réponses à ce sujet

[EsterCloat]

I always do peace but if I couldn't I'd let the quarians kill themselves if they want to so bad. The quarians literally have to just sit there and this is all over. No more killing, no more fighting, no more having no planet. If they could just sit still for a single minute and realize that the geth would just float there in silence in response there would be no killing. They could go land on their planet and have the geth help them assimilate back to their environment and finally have a home again and all they'd have to do is stop trying to kill the geth.

It's simple: stop trying to attack and live or keep attacking and be massacred. If the quarians don't want to understand that then what can I do? Help them kill an entire race? No.

[Ogrinash]

Geth for the usual reasons.

Also, the Quarians doomed themselves in the events in question; their own stupid fault.

[jarrettwold]

DarkSpiral wrote...
Well, no maybe that isn't true.  I just can't think in such large terms as an entire race.  It has to be personal to affect me in any way, which is why it boiled down to me having to betray an old friend that stood by me when everyone I met that SHOULD have been on my side thought I was either crazy, or a traitor.  Couldn't do it.  Not sure if I ever can.  The quarians are literally not real, but the race as a whole, up on the Fleet, was significantly less real to me than Tali was, standing there next to Shepard, begging me not to let this happen,

I suppose I should point out that I took theoption to make peace between the two races.  *shrug*

That's completely legitimate, the ability or inability to fully realize the scale of an entire race being wiped out. If you can't appropriately realize the full scope of your actions can that doom you to make a more biased decision.

I suppose on a smaller scale, that would be like a decision to march through a town shooting every single person it one by one. That decision would be made differently. If it was a choice between Tali and that, I don't think I could have chosen her.

I'm a monster if I choose Tali over the Geth, or choose Tali over the town. Choosing Tali over the town, would make me feel far more like a monster, than the Tali over the Geth.  I don't even know why that would be, scale is a very valid explanation though.

Modifié par jarrettwold, 24 mars 2012 - 08:43 .

[commanderkai]

Miekkas wrote...


I cannot even comprehend your logic.

1. No, I cannot blame the modern quarians for a war 300 years ago, but I sure can blame them for starting yet another war and trying to commit genocide AGAIN without even once attempting to establish peace. Face it, the quarians are completely unrepentant that their ancestors in time became slavemasters and tried to kill their slaves and then became resentful when their slaves rebelled because they did not want to be subject to genocide.

2. The Quarians automatically attacked the geth a second time. To use your analogy, this is like the Germans starting World War III because they were sore about losing World War II.

3. Only a very small sect of the geth sided with the Reapers the first time, and the second time the  geth only sided with the Reapers because it was that or be wiped out. This point is made in the game, and Tali is horrified that her people had forced the geth into such a state of desperation that they were forced to turn to the Reapers for help. She seriously sounds like she is ready to cry when she learns the truth from Legion.

4. Why would you try to establish peace and contact the same people that tried to commit genocide against you? I apologize if this is blunt, but only an idiot contacts the person who just tried to kill them in cold blood to try and make peace with them. No, your natural reaction to distance yourself in any fashion possible from that person, and if they come near you again, you lash out in instinctive self defense. You don't invite back the same people who tried to commit genocide
against you. To use your Germany example again, this would be like the Jews
driving the ****s out of Germany and then being stupid enough to invite
them back.

5. The geth acted in self defense and merely drove the quarians from Rannoch because the quarians attempted to commit genocide against them first. And once the quarians were pushed out of the system through the Mass Relays, the geth immediately stopped pursuing. Legion tells you that the geth never had any intention of wiping out the quarians. They simply wanted to defend themselves from the quarians' attempt at genocide.

6. The geth never tried to commit genocide, but the quarians did TWICE. I would hardly call the geths' reaction an overreaction. If someone tries to kill you, and you fight back and end up killing that person or at least leave them badly injured, that is not an overreaction in my opinion.

7. Yes, the geth can be rebuild, but they are sentient beings, thus still making it murder. I could try to justify killing quarians by saying that more quarians could always be born.

Let's see if we can clear it up, shall we? Might be a fun discussion.

1. Neither side tried to make peace, even though they should have, and having Legion and Tali survive Mass Effect 2 should have been a good springboard for it. Sadly, didn't happen, and the little Geth-Quarian War occurred. To be honest, I see the Geth at fault here (see part 3).

I don't see why the Quarians should be "repentant" either. They made A.I. Said A.I, known as the Geth, served the Quarians as workers, servants, etc. Said A.I. began to think beyond its original programming, which would obviously concern the Quarians. Once again, if you saw your computer acting beyond it's programming, you'd be quite concerned. You'd start fiddling around with it, trying to find out why it's acting strangely, including deleting strange programs. Remember, the Geth is software. Deleting anything off a Geth platform (aka, any Geth units the game encounters) means you're destroying a large number of Geth.

If you remember from the second game, during Legion's loyalty mission when he was talking about how you encoutered (and destroyed) those server platforms in the first game, he was basically stating you killed thousands, if not millions of Geth. Was Shepard committing genocide?

2. So? The Quarians wanted Rannoch back, and they thought they were in a position to take it. Although risky, I can understand their motivations and can sympathize. Seemingly, they were actually succeeding, until the Geth made a deal with the Reapers. If I remember correctly, Legion stated most Geth were living on space stations in deep space. If the Geth truly were that innocent, and were desiring a peace like Legion claimed in Mass Effect 2, they could have pulled away from Rannoch as a sign of peaceful intent. This was not a war of genocide on part of the Quarians, but rather a war to retake their home. The Quarians had no chance in hell to kill all of the Geth.

3. So? Did the Geth not see the sheer genocidal intent of the Reapers? Did they not see what was happening to Earth, to Palaven? The fact that a significant minority Geth in Mass Effect 1 sided with Sovereign over what Legion explained was a "rounding error". That "rounding error" made you kill what amounted to an army of Geth in ME1. That "rounding error" almost let Sovereign win. However, they didn't really know the true strength or intent of the Reapers, and I can forgive them of that.

No, they do it again. This time agreeing as a whole to get help from the Reapers just because they were losing one battle. You're right, I was with Tali, I was almost about to cry at how mind numbingly stupid the Geth were for siding with the same beings that were killing Humans, Turians, Asari, Volus, Elcor, Batarians, Drell, Hanar, and Krogan by the millions. Above anything, this would have been my decision to choose the Quarians over the Geth. They proven themselves untrustworthy. The Quarians, with all of their problems and flaws, never betrayed the Galaxy.

Oh, and lastly...remember, only you, and your crew/squad really know about the "Heretic" geth. Unless I missed something, the "mainstream" geth never came out and said "Oh hey, Eden Prime and the Battle of the Citadel wasn't us. We're really sorry. Here, just to show you we're sincere, here's X concessions." Nope, instead, they let the heretic geth have their fun impaling human colonists on Dragon's Teeth, destroying civilian ships, oh, and attacking the center of organic civilization. To the Quarians, oh and the rest of the galaxy, this whole "Heretic" geth was something only told by Legion to Shepard. If you remember in the prologue to Mass Effect 2, the SSV Normandy SR-1 was actually on patrol, hunting for possible geth incursions. That was a smart PR move on them. So, to the Quarians, and other organic species, they see a rogue A.I. system intent on attacking organic life.

4. Please. Human history is coated with the stains of nation X genociding the population of nation Y, and seemingly, a lot of those nations aren't hostile to each other anymore.  The genocides, both of the Geth by the Quarians, and the Quarians by the Geth, occurred 300 years ago.  Look at the sheer number of genocides in human history in the last three hundred years, and how seemingly, a lot of those conflicts were done by countries that are now at peace with one another. Seemingly, Germany isn't at war with anybody else in Europe. Israel isn't hostile with modern Germany (sheesh, I should apologize for using Germany as an example here, heh) even though these respective wars/genocides occurred less than 80 years ago.

The Quarians lost the Morning War. Badly. Their species went from what I assume was billions, to about 17 million. Even if they had a sort of "one child policy", that would mean that they maybe had maybe a few hundred million (sorry, don't know how long a Quarian lives, or how their generational cycle is)   They lost not only their homeworld, but their colonies, oh, and basically every artistic, cultural, and architectural marvel they ever built. Yeah, sorry, still more sympathetic with the Quarians here.

5. Yes, the Quarians started the Morning War when they became fearful of the Geth gaining sentience. Although I understand why they became fearful considering that, if our computers began to act beyond its programming, we'd start going bat**** and try to root out the problem. The third game shows that a huge number of Quarians went against the Geth genocide, but, of course, those Quarians were massacred by the Geth in the Morning War as well. You don't go from billions, to maybe a few hundred million, in "self defense" actions, unless by "self defense", you mean killing everything.

6. Wrong. Legion even admitted that they made a mistake when they slaughtered billions of Quarians in the Morning War. Legion states that the Geth were keeping Rannoch preserved as a Memorial of the likes of Arlington National Cemetary in the United States, or like Auchwitz. They slaughtered billions, including the large number of Quarians that opposed the actions against the Geth in the Morning War.



Watch, start from 1:44 if you want the exact scene, but the entire video is a pretty good highlight of how mind numbingly stupid the Geth were acting in Mass Effect 3.

7. Wrong, again. Those 17 million Quarians were all there. All of them. There was nowhere else to go. There was no planet they can drop the civilians off. Now, don't get me wrong, the Quarian fleet command was completely stupid in bringing the Civilian Fleet there, especially since, at least from what the game seemingly treated it as, a majority of the Quarian population was against the war in the first place (my my, Bioware, paralleling the original Morning War). There is no hope for the Quarians after this, if you choose the Geth over the Quarians. They all die orbiting their homeworld. You can't make more babies, if, you know, they're all dead.



Watch and enjoy the death of an entire species.

[Silhouett3]

Shouldn't this be a poll or something? Maybe no.

I don't care if Geth turned to Reapers, or some them even worshipped Reapers at some point. Organic societies immediately and consistently saw them as an enemy without any verification. For example Quarians' actions make themselves absolutely a more clear threat to galactic peace.

Only Shepard tried to communicate with Geth and that was more like a necessity - knowing Legion wore Shep's armor. How ridiculous isn't it. I don't think even the Shadow Broker had any information on them.

And no -in Mass Effect- "soul" is nothing more than a superstitious concept. A label created by organics to give voice to their accidental existence. When your civilization is based on an artificial and designed technology - Mass Effect fields- the value of natural life is obscure. There is no characteristic pride in being an organic; but in being sapient. Being sapient is no longer determined by breathing, peeing, getting in the pants of another. All who are capable of calculus are all equally valid and intelligent species.

To answer the question; Geth. Geth should be made a council race. Legion for president, um, Voice of the Consensus!

Geth are also very democratic , aren't they?

Modifié par Silhouett3, 24 mars 2012 - 09:23 .

[Goneaviking]

shin-zan wrote...

Geth. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I only did the peace route, but doesn't siding with Geth play out with you telling the Quarians to stand down but they don't... making it their fault again?

Though using reaper code to upgrade themselves is kind of fishy and goes against what Legion tells you in ME2, they are still innocent in the whole conflict and actually seemed to want peace had the Quarians just stopped to talk to them for a minute.

You need no correction, all points are correct.

[BIO18]

geth, quarians are A**-holes

edit:says the guy with a quarian profil image '

Modifié par BIO18, 24 mars 2012 - 09:44 .

[Titan_HQ]

I agree with the OPs reasons, plus Im a Talimancer. So yeah.

[Painaid]

Quarians. Don't even have to think about it. I actually am fascinated by their civilization and way of life. That, and they have sweet accents. They're also the best and brightest engineers in the entire galaxy. There wouldn't be Geth to begin with if the Quarians hadnt've created them. And while the end result became the Morning War, I don't think exclusive fault belongs to the Quarians. The Quarians acted in self-defense just like the Geth did--they were afraid of an uprising after realizing their creations were conscious. It's not like it was something they intended nor did they have evil intentions. For both sides, it was an unfortuante case of both sides fighting for self-preservation.

How were the Quarians supposed to know of the Geth's true intentions? Hell, we didnt' even learn about it until late in ME2 when we meet Legion. Until then, we thought all Geth were the evil heretics that wanted to destroy all organic life.

Modifié par Painaid, 24 mars 2012 - 09:53 .

[turian_rage]

Quarians. I'm an organic, they aren't.

[turian_rage]

turian_rage wrote...

Quarians. I'm an organic, Geth aren't.

[VeryOddGamer]

Well, because it's such a hard choice, for me it would be decided by 2 things.
1. If I destroyed the heretics in 2, I'd choose the quarians and vice versa.
And 2. If I romanced Tali, I'd have to go with the quarians anyway because you know, Shepard would probably become miserable.

[N7Gold]

Quarians. Jusst because they are the aggressors doesn't mean they deserve to join the dinosaurs.

[shurryy]

The Quarians, can't betray my LI when she beggs me to stop the upload after I started it.

[Headrusher]

I'd pick Geth. Oh wait, the geth die anyway.

Um. Quarians. What do I win?

[Cazlee]

I chose peace, but the quarians decided to destroy themselves.
The geth are an artificial lifeform, but they are a lifeform and deserve to be treated fairly.

Modifié par Cazlee, 24 mars 2012 - 10:18 .

[shin-zan]

Don't know if this has been said, but the geth sided with the reapers not just because they felt threatened by the Quarians... The quarians blew up the geths dyson sphere while a lot of programs were uploaded to it, it's explicitly said that this made the geth significantly dumber, they panicked and asked the reapers for help because of the state the Quarian's attack put them in. It was stupid and they should have known siding with the reapers won't end well but because of the intelligence drop they prioritized their survival, could be compared to organics going into a feral state just following their fight or flight instinct.

And while I understand that the Quarians just wanted to take back their homeworld, they could have just send a message Hey Geth, sorry we tried to kill you before can we be friends? The geth would have accepted. They went into a war of their own making not even attempting diplomacy beforehand.

[NM_Che56]

I can bang a Geth

[AlienSpaceBats]

Geth.

[mothbanquet]

It's funny how people paint the geth as victims in this debate, conveniently forgetting the fact that the quarians have not once attacked a human outpost or colony. I certainly didn't see Kal-Reegar impaling his victims on spikes out of reverence to nightmarish biomechanical killing machines. Yes, they were 'heretics', but in the same breath one could also argue that not everyone in the Migrant Fleet condoned starting the battle to retake their homeworld. So then, in my mind the deciding factor has always been 'who is really my enemy?'

The fact is that the geth have been responsible for some of the greatest atrocities of the current Mass Effect era. If a side MUST be chosen, it's simply crazy to pick the only race who has killed more humans than any other faction prior to the Reaper invasion.

[NoirLegend]

Geth: I hate Tali and all Quarians.

[Miekkas]

jarrettwold wrote...

Miekkas wrote...

One would think that after the 300 years of discrimination that the quarians have gone through, they would learn to apply it as a life lesson when it comes to the geth. Nope, instead they decide it is a jolly fine idea to try and commit genocide again..

What if the geth in turn decide, that they will be attacked endlessly by organics, face genocide at every turn and that results in the extinction of the organics.  

Let's say the geth release a series of viruses, a nuclear option if you will.  That's intent would be to, oh I don't know, create intense pain anytime an organic thought of attacking synthetics.  At that point if the virus spirals out of control and leads to the extinction of organics.

Were the reapers right at that point?

Except the Geth have not taken that course of action, and they have never demostrated behavior that has suggested they ever would. I would not wipe out an entire species because of what they MIGHT do despite all evidence to the contrary. The quarians on the other hand have attempted genocide not once, but twice.

"I will raise a question. So because Quarians wronged Geth, entire
species consisting 17 million civilians should die for programs and hard
wares? If you are paragon, the rational choice will be quarians."

Except that those "programs and hardwares" are sentient beings. It is a frightening notion that 17 million civilians are willing to go along with commiting genocide because of the propoganda fed by their admirals, or at the very least remain silent as the genocide is carried out. That is like standing by as you watched someone get murdered by your friend.

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

For me it became Tali versus the Geth. I wanted to side with Tali but the Quarians were way to stupid to live, I mean, aside from shooting on you, starting a turf war while the reapers extinguished life in the galaxy, refusing to step down (when the Geth were freed), and suffering from downright stupidity. The geth were machines which were more or less rebelling after they were being killed, took Rannoch, sided with the Old Machines when it became apparent organics basically wanted to kill them, then after that whole conflict more or less pulled back and didn't do much until they were attacked.

The only argument against the geth is their susceptibility to being indoctrinated (**** you could even reprogram the heretics with ease in ME2), which they said wouldn't happen again but Reapers are clearly smarter than organics/synthetics alone so...ya.

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Elite Midget wrote...

Geth.

Mostly to prove the Reapers wrong.

So you're going to refute Starchild's claims that synthetics will always kill organics by...  helping synthetics kill organics? Yeah, you sure showed him.

It's not like using the geth to wipe out organics was a tactic the Reapers themselves were using or anything, either...

Modifié par Mr. Big Pimpin, 24 mars 2012 - 02:07 .

[commander_shepard]

commanderkai wrote...

7. Wrong, again. Those 17 million Quarians were all there. All of them. There was nowhere else to go. There was no planet they can drop the civilians off. Now, don't get me wrong, the Quarian fleet command was completely stupid in bringing the Civilian Fleet there, especially since, at least from what the game seemingly treated it as, a majority of the Quarian population was against the war in the first place (my my, Bioware, paralleling the original Morning War). There is no hope for the Quarians after this, if you choose the Geth over the Quarians. They all die orbiting their homeworld. You can't make more babies, if, you know, they're all dead.

You keep making the argument that there were billions of quarians and the geth killed them all but you can't really make that claim because it's not stated anywhere. Regardless, arguing how many quarians were killed by the geth is as pointless as arguing how many geth were killed by the quarians (and I'm willing to bet the number was equally high).

That being said, in your argument above, none of the nations on earth have ever been in the position where; you lose the battle = everyone in your country dies. This was the consideration that the geth had to make when they were forced to make the choice or not. Thus, I'm not sure how relevant drawing parallels to Earth and WW II is.

DarkSpiral wrote...
I wasn't responding to you, actually, but okay.  I did not feel bad about either choice.

Although you didn't actually respond to me...

Modifié par commander_shepard, 24 mars 2012 - 02:08 .