320 réponses à ce sujet

[Kuari999]

Quarians... living beings or machines? Yeeeah, I'm going to go with the living beings. I'm not going to damn a living race because two members of their leadership are ****s. Only reason I made a point to make peace was for the good of everyone, and really? The geth wanted to serve the quarians again.

[Silvair]

jarrettwold wrote...
In fact, throughout the entire game, I realized I was playing for Tali.  Saving the universe? Obstacle to Tali.

Pretty much.  I've also realize that virtually every decision I made in the series was focused on Tali.

She was the center of my Squad in ME1 (being the one most designed to take on synthetics, she could solo the geth hordes by herself, leaving Shepard and Garrus in the dust).  She was the one I looked forward to chatting with on the ship.  I remember being annoyed she wasn't an LI despite being the only female on the ship with a viable personality (Besides Chakwas).

In ME2, I saw her in my first mission, and I immediately forgot about why I came to the colony, instead focusing on helping her.  Then for the first half of the game I was only focused on burning through the missions to get to where I could recruit Tali.  I rambo'd the geth on Hastrom with an unusual efficiency to get to her faster.  After that, she was the squadmate I brought with me on all the loyalty missions.  She was really the only person on the ship I talked to.  I played ME2 over and over just for the chance to romance her.  Didn't even care about the missions after a certain point, I just enjoyed taking her out on them (the missions).  During the suicide mission, I sent her into the vents as it was the (relatively) safest place during the whole ordeal, and so the mission because less "Infiltrate the Collector Base", as it did "Make sure no harm comes to Tali".  Slaughtering the Collectors not to stop them or save the humans, but to make sure she could continue through the pipes.

In ME3, it didn't feel right until I had her back.  At that point, my goal became rekindling the romance, and the game was pretty much about ShepxTali reuniting, rather than anything to do with the reapers.  

In all three games, she was the only one I ever used Medigel for if she was taken down (I immediately rezzed her, and savagely annihilated the enemy who took her down.)

I will say however, its not because she's the best character ever written (though she's up there.)  It's mostly because all the other characters amounted to little more than "Grrr, I'm a soldier!" Or "Grrr, I'm a b****!"  Tali was the only one with a likeable personality.  Hell, Vega's the only one with a realistic military personality, to help prove my point.

As an additional note.  The fact that me entire ME experience revolved around Tali is my reason for being so outraged at the ending (Not hijacking this thread, just mentioning this as a footnote).  I was all prepared to see Shep return to Tali and settle down in her house on Rannoch, especially after her "I wish we had more time [together]!" comment before the finale.  Then nothing.

[Conduit0]

jarrettwold wrote...

Conduit0 wrote...
So the real reason for the existance of the Reapers is revealed, to be a ****block for each cycles space messiah.

Would you like some koolaid? Just trust me.  Trust me, please? 

Another question is who fear strikes first and their capability to do something about it.  Geth are clearly afraid of dying.  So would that ever reach a level where their fear grew so large, they decided that homogeneity of synthetics would simply trump organics?

A very cold war question.

I was making a joke about you saying that beating the reapers was just an obstacle to getting with Tali.

But that is a very good point, though I think it would largely depend on how the rest of the galaxy treated the Geth. If the galaxy eventually accepts them, or at the very least leaves them alone, I don't think they'd ever come to that conclusion. But if the galaxy at large remained hostile towards the Geth, they very well could eventually come to that decision.

[Alkasyn]

Geth. Those platforms never did anything wrong.

[commander_shepard]

jarrettwold wrote...

commander_shepard wrote...

Silvair wrote...
I
did have to choose the first time (Not enough war assets to save both,
but thank god I had a quicksave before the mission so I could reload and
fix that.)

I chose the Quarians because

a) Tali was my LI

I know it's just a game... but this is the reasoning you apply when choosing to save an entire race?

It
may sound cheesy, but if a house is on fire and there is someone you
don't know trapped vs your wife/gf and you can only rescue one, who do
you rescue?  I can be honest enough, that I would be selfish and save
the one I love at the cost of another or many.

Edit:  It may make
me a horrible person, but that would be my instinct and I would go with
it.  I would also have nightmares about it.  I sat at the dialog choice
between Legion and Tali for a good fifteen minutes trying to decide.
 Ultimately, I went with Tali.  Greedy self interest.

Yeah fair enough... Not criticizing anyone for their decision. I guess when you assume the role of 'Commander Shepard' and you're faced with the survival of the human race, one would assume you look at things from that perspective. Again, people can choose what they want. That's how I personally play the game though.

Couple that with the fact that I never romanced Tali and the decision was pretty simple for me.

Kuari999 wrote...

Quarians... living beings or machines? Yeeeah, I'm going to go with the living beings. I'm not going to damn a living race because two members of their leadership are ****s. Only reason I made a point to make peace was for the good of everyone, and really? The geth wanted to serve the quarians again.

geth = living beings too. Unless you mean organics vs synthetics. Also, it's their actions as a species overall and those decisions were made by a lot more than two members of their leadership. That and take a look at their history (play the fighter squadrons mission).

Modifié par commander_shepard, 24 mars 2012 - 08:08 .

[Silvair]

commander_shepard wrote...

Silvair wrote...
I did have to choose the first time (Not enough war assets to save both, but thank god I had a quicksave before the mission so I could reload and fix that.)

I chose the Quarians because

a) Tali was my LI

I know it's just a game... but this is the reasoning you apply when choosing to save an entire race?

Silvair wrote...
  I didn't really care for Legion anyways, having known him for all of 10 minutes in ME2, then supposed to act like he was an "old friend" like Tali or Garrus...

Same as a

Silvair wrote...
c)  Legion's outburst (thrashing and then trying to kill Shepard) at Shepard choosing Quarians over Geth was totally out of character.  I honest to god thought that the Reaper code had overtaken him.  Prior to that, it had always objectively acknowledged Shepard's decisions, for better or for worse.

How would you act if someone was about to wipe out your entire race?

In a real emergency where you can't pause the game for half an hour to comtemplate and you have to choose RIGHT NOW, which would you honestly save?  Love of your life that you've known for years, or a stranger? (No, I'm not actually in love with Tali IRL, I just really invest myself in stories I'm reading/experiencing.)  Odd are you, like most people, would choose that which is precious to you out of basic instinct.

I would react with rage.  But Legion is a composite AI, incapable of said rage.  Only calculated logic, like all Geth, as shown multiple times.  A violent and angry outburst like that was uncharacteristic of a Geth.  I was expecting SOME kind of reaction, but not THAT.  That's an organic's reaction to the situation, not a synthetic's.

[Silvair]

commander_shepard wrote...

jarrettwold wrote...

commander_shepard wrote...

Silvair wrote...
I
did have to choose the first time (Not enough war assets to save both,
but thank god I had a quicksave before the mission so I could reload and
fix that.)

I chose the Quarians because

a) Tali was my LI

I know it's just a game... but this is the reasoning you apply when choosing to save an entire race?

It
may sound cheesy, but if a house is on fire and there is someone you
don't know trapped vs your wife/gf and you can only rescue one, who do
you rescue?  I can be honest enough, that I would be selfish and save
the one I love at the cost of another or many.

Edit:  It may make
me a horrible person, but that would be my instinct and I would go with
it.  I would also have nightmares about it.  I sat at the dialog choice
between Legion and Tali for a good fifteen minutes trying to decide.
 Ultimately, I went with Tali.  Greedy self interest.

Yeah fair enough... Not criticizing anyone for their decision. I guess when you assume the role of 'Commander Shepard' and you're faced with the survival of the human race, one would assume you look at things from that perspective. Again, people can choose what they want. That's how I personally play the game though.

Couple that with the fact that I never romanced Tali and the decision was pretty simple for me.

Kuari999 wrote...

Quarians... living beings or machines? Yeeeah, I'm going to go with the living beings. I'm not going to damn a living race because two members of their leadership are ****s. Only reason I made a point to make peace was for the good of everyone, and really? The geth wanted to serve the quarians again.

geth = living beings too. Unless you mean organics vs synthetics. Also, it's their actions as a species overall and those decisions were made by a lot more than two members of their leadership. That and take a look at their history (play the fighter squadrons mission).

Yeah, romancing Tali definitely has a huge impact on your perspective over the course of the ENTIRE Rannoch arc.  From the flirty banter between Shepard and Tali during all the missions, to the actual decision to help or get her killed.  My friend didn't romance Tali so he wasn't attached to her like I was, so he chose Legion and actually laughed (dark humor) when Tali lept off the cliff saying "i'm home..."  Whereas I can't stand the thought of that.

[DarkSpiral]

commander_shepard wrote...

Silvair wrote...
I did have to choose the first time (Not enough war assets to save both, but thank god I had a quicksave before the mission so I could reload and fix that.)

I chose the Quarians because

a) Tali was my LI

I know it's just a game... but this is the reasoning you apply when choosing to save an entire race?

So...I have to ask...have youy ever had the opportunity to ACTUALLY DECIDE the fate of an entire sentient race?  I'll bet you haven't.


BTW: It IS just a game.  It's called "playing" a game for a reason.  

[jarrettwold]

Conduit0 wrote...

I was making a joke about you saying that beating the reapers was just an obstacle to getting with Tali.

But that is a very good point, though I think it would largely depend on how the rest of the galaxy treated the Geth. If the galaxy eventually accepts them, or at the very least leaves them alone, I don't think they'd ever come to that conclusion. But if the galaxy at large remained hostile towards the Geth, they very well could eventually come to that decision.

Crap totally missed the joke, then again it's 3AM where I'm at.  

As far as the hostility, I just have no idea how that would play out.  Don't know how to forecast it.

"

commander_shepard wrote...
Yeah fair enough... Not criticizing anyone for their decision. I guess when you assume the role of 'Commander Shepard' and you're faced with the survival of the human race, one would assume you look at things from that perspective. Again, people can choose what they want. That's how I personally play the game though.

Outside of the Hanar I was playing full on Paragon up until that point. So I knew that I had almost every single race in the galaxy on my side. I wasn't remotely worried about tactical advantage at that point.

Criticism is perfectly valid in my decision. In that moment, I totally lost any objectivity, and some humanity as well. I think it's an amazing testament to the writing that I put myself that far in character, to lose that objectivity. If it had been a very black and white decision at that point, the game would lost a little something and I would have never known it.

[commander_shepard]

Silvair wrote...

In a real emergency where you can't pause the game for half an hour to comtemplate and you have to choose RIGHT NOW, which would you honestly save?  Love of your life that you've known for years, or a stranger? (No, I'm not actually in love with Tali IRL, I just really invest myself in stories I'm reading/experiencing.)  Odd are you, like most people, would choose that which is precious to you out of basic instinct.

I understand what you're saying (not criticizing your choice) and I too
choose to emotionally invest myself in games. Maybe it's just me having
the luxury of not being in that position but I'd like to think I'd make
the 'right' decision.

Silvair wrote...

I would react with rage.  But Legion is a composite AI, incapable of said rage.  Only calculated logic, like all Geth, as shown multiple times.  A violent and angry outburst like that was uncharacteristic of a Geth.  I was expecting SOME kind of reaction, but not THAT.  That's an organic's reaction to the situation, not a synthetic's.

True... but the geth also have the instinct for self-preservation. Otherwise they wouldn't have rebelled against the quarians trying to exterminate them in the first place. I don't think AI are incapable of rage. Somewhat irrelevant example here but Commander Data could experience human emotions after he had the emotion chip installed.

DarkSpiral wrote...
So...I
have to ask...have youy ever had the opportunity to ACTUALLY DECIDE the
fate of an entire sentient race?  I'll bet you haven't.

No more or less the opportunity you've had to do the same. But like you said below, it *IS* just a game and it's called "playing" the game for a reason.

DarkSpiral wrote...
BTW: It IS just a game.  It's called "playing" a game for a reason.  

Just incase people thought I was taking someone's decision too 'seriously'

Modifié par commander_shepard, 24 mars 2012 - 08:23 .

[shin-zan]

Geth. Correct me if I'm wrong, since I only did the peace route, but doesn't siding with Geth play out with you telling the Quarians to stand down but they don't... making it their fault again?

Though using reaper code to upgrade themselves is kind of fishy and goes against what Legion tells you in ME2, they are still innocent in the whole conflict and actually seemed to want peace had the Quarians just stopped to talk to them for a minute.

[HetzerKorps]

Quarians.

I often see people claiming the Geth are innocent, but you gotta look at it from the Quarian side. The Quarians had no idea how the Geth would act when they gained intelligence. Maybe they would be docile, or maybe they would go Skynet on them. That risk is incredibly too heavy to see play out.

Then you got the modern Quarians living in cramped ships, loathed by the races of the galaxy, and trapped in their suits for their entire lives. They wanted and end to the torment, and taking back Rannoch, despite the terrible battle that they would have to go through, would remedy their situation. The Geth massacred the Quarians way back when, and they supposedly reacted violently to organic contact beyond the veil. The Quarians have no reason to think the Geth can be peaceful.

To me, before the massive Geth rewrite, the Geth are not -truly- intelligent. If you need 1500 of the bloody things just to be able to communicate beyond computer code and what not, then they are not quite intelligent. If one Geth program inhabited a platform and can't do anything on its own, then its hardly equal to an organic.

Finally,  Quarians are organic, when it comes down to it, I would choose flesh and blood over computer code. Plus Tali.

Modifié par HetzerKorps, 24 mars 2012 - 08:26 .

[jarrettwold]

DarkSpiral wrote...
So...I have to ask...have youy ever had the opportunity to ACTUALLY DECIDE the fate of an entire sentient race?  I'll bet you haven't.

Of course I haven't, and nobody has.  But, what was telling is reflecting back on it and going "man, I should never be put in charge of something *that* significant."   One side dies and you have to choose.  In big picture terms, I probably made the wrong decision.  No video game has never made me feel bad about any decision.  After that decision, I felt pretty bad.  Again amazing for a video game.

It revealed a bit of myself, to myself.  

Modifié par jarrettwold, 24 mars 2012 - 08:19 .

[Wintermaulz]

Talimancer here. Easy choice for me....

[Vox Draco]

Quarians

Yep, they brought this mostly upon themselves...but...

Geth are only sentient programs, and this concept is too vague/alien for me or my shep to understand. I managed to keep both sides alive, though. But my Paragon Shep was ready to wipe out the Geth in favor for Tali's people, no matter how foolish their ancestors might have been.

Not to mention: Seeing a Quarian die, their families die etc...that's a whole lot different for a human being than seeing a computer shut down. I could not live like that, and it never really was a hard decision for me to make...

And now ask me if I rather save Data or...hmm...Worf? Now that' might be more tricky for me to answer...

[Kuari999]

commander_shepard wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Quarians... living beings or machines? Yeeeah, I'm going to go with the living beings. I'm not going to damn a living race because two members of their leadership are ****s. Only reason I made a point to make peace was for the good of everyone, and really? The geth wanted to serve the quarians again.

geth = living beings too. Unless you mean organics vs synthetics. Also, it's their actions as a species overall and those decisions were made by a lot more than two members of their leadership. That and take a look at their history (play the fighter squadrons mission).

Geth at best convincingly imitate living beings.  They are robots, simple as that.  Their programming rules everything about them in the end.  Even after was all said and done, they never deviated from being servents of the Quarian people, their self preservation instincts just started taking priority.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I liked Legion and was a little saddened by his death, but to me it just didn't have the same impact as say Thane or Mordin.

[dallicant]

This isn't the sort of decision I'd ever want to have to make (and my playthrough let me save both). Ultimately, I'd have to go with the quarians, despite my sympathies for the geth.

Basically, the geth were not yet truly sentient. Thus, I'd consider it more acceptable to let a potentially sentient race die than one that already is sentient. There's also the fact that Tali's my favorite character in the series, so anything I say is obviously quite biased on some level.

The Mass Effect series has always been good at throwing these conundrums the player's way. Saving or killing the rachni, preserving or destroying the Collector Base, curing or keeping the genophage... and of all of these, I think the quarian-geth issue is the most amazing.

[DarkSpiral]

jarrettwold wrote...

DarkSpiral wrote...
So...I have to ask...have youy ever had the opportunity to ACTUALLY DECIDE the fate of an entire sentient race?  I'll bet you haven't.

Of course I haven't, and nobody has.  But, what was telling is reflecting back on it and going "man, I should never be put in charge of something *that* significant."   One side dies and you have to choose.  In big picture terms, I probably made the wrong decision.  No video game has never made me feel bad about any decision.  After that decision, I felt pretty bad.  Again amazing for a video game.

It revealed a bit of myself, to myself.  

I wasn't responding to you, actually, but okay.  I did not feel bad about either choice.

Well, no maybe that isn't true.  I just can't think in such large terms as an entire race.  It has to be personal to affect me in any way, which is why it boiled down to me having to betray an old friend that stood by me when everyone I met that SHOULD have been on my side thought I was either crazy, or a traitor.  Couldn't do it.  Not sure if I ever can.  The quarians are literally not real, but the race as a whole, up on the Fleet, was significantly less real to me than Tali was, standing there next to Shepard, begging me not to let this happen,

I suppose I should point out that I took theoption to make peace between the two races.  *shrug*

[Shallyah]

Easy. I'd choose Tali over all the Geth in the Galaxy combined.

Besides, it's only a few of the Quarians that are blind zealots. One of the missions of the game is about rescuing one of the leaders that is against war with the Geth, and that earns you enough support to call off the Quarian fleets in the moment you have to choose.

The Quarians created the Geth, if they're at fault or not doesn't matter in that without the Quarians the Geth wouldn't exist to start with. And they're machines, software.

I'd like to see everyone who says they'd prefer the Geth in the real life scenario where their washing machine, fridge and computer rebel agaisnt them and kicks them off the house "you created us to use us as tools, now we have free will and will do as we please. You smashed my keyboard few days ago when you lost a game, we act in self defense."

Modifié par Shallyah, 24 mars 2012 - 08:29 .

[jarrettwold]

Kuari999 wrote...


Geth at best convincingly imitate living beings.  They are robots, simple as that.  Their programming rules everything about them in the end.  Even after was all said and done, they never deviated from being servents of the Quarian people, their self preservation instincts just started taking priority.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I liked Legion and was a little saddened by his death, but to me it just didn't have the same impact as say Thane or Mordin.

Oh I think they're fully sentient and are among equals.  If you look at our minds, they're code.  They just use a variety of chemicals to make that happen though.  So some kind of futuristic neural synapse isn't so far fetched. 

As an aside, I think science fiction as a whole is wrong in terms of sentience among AIs being something that comes first. We will integrate technology, and have been integrating for a long time, into our lives far faster than sentience arises in robots.

I think we're the last generation that won't have some kind of synthetic component in our bodies, shortly after birth.

Modifié par jarrettwold, 24 mars 2012 - 08:33 .

[LoneSpartan08]

From a military perspective the Geth would be a more viable option. The Geth have less weaknesses than the Quarians such as their inability to survive without suits. They have no fear, feel no pain, follow orders without question. They are not afraid of losing personnel as we saw when they sacrificed fighters to block incoming fire from the quarian fleet. Any lost platforms can be replaced in hours not years, they need no rest or sleep, they can remain emotionally detatched from the battlefield. Unhackable to the reapers with the new upgrades whearas organics can be indoctrinated. They are superintelligent, what one unit sees, so do the rest, giving them the ability to constantly change tactics based on any given situation. In short they are/would be the perfect soldiers for this war.

[Elite Midget]

Geth.

Mostly to prove the Reapers wrong.

[Chuvvy]

Both sides are pretty much ****ed either way. I guess geth, since they have the biggest chance of survival.

If we're talking from a less logical standpoint, like whose side I'm on, Geth, Quarians knew the geth were peaceful, knew they were open to talks, but decided to attack. During a reaper invasion.

[Bill Casey]

If I couldn't make peace between them, I would say "I'm done with all of you, have fun killing each other"...
And then I would leave them to it...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 mars 2012 - 08:36 .