771 réponses à ce sujet

[Made Nightwing]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Wrex says things about salarians and turians because they did horrible things to his race and people. Javik says things because he was there while you were eating bananas.

Ashley watched something on television or some hate-mongering broadcast and now she hates aliens.

A real intelligent person wouldn't generalize like she does. If she had real worries about aliens and the security of the ship, she would go talk to Garrus herself or Tali and find out if they are the type of person she is willing to trust on her ship. No, instead she just hates them all. She is blinded by her own convictions and is unwilling to investigate any doubt in them. In her mind, she is too important to believe she could be wrong or that there might be aliens worth trusting.

She is a very close-minded person with really idiotic opinions. Even as a religious person, I would have to say I find her extremely disgusting.

This actually falls right in line with her character since she does it once again in ME2 and 3 where she instantly distrusts shepard, doesn't bother to investigate whether it really is shepard, and flips him/her the bird. Takes this into consideration that someone like Admiral Hacket investigates and has no qualms with trusting Shepard during Arrival.

Really? And the fact that the turians, who attacked without provocation and massacred half a garrison, coincidentally disgracing her family name, has nothing to do with it?

Also, these dialogue line: "I hope this mission helps change people's opinion of your people, Tali."
"I heard about you and Tali. Don't get me wrong, she's like a sister to me."
And if you come into the Starboard Observation Deck after the quarians die, Ash will be crying over Tali's death.

Here endeth the lesson.

[EnvyTB075]

MegaBadExample wrote...
You're forgetting about what happened to her grandfather who basically got shamed publicly in front of every single human being of that time. People are still going on about that ordeal two generations later. Ashley and father have been steadily abused by the public and have both worked their asses off for the Alliance but were never allowed to climb the ranks like other regular marines.

Turians didn't associate the stigma, Humanity did, hence its not an alien problem.

Modifié par EnvyTB075, 29 mai 2012 - 03:15 .

[Made Nightwing]

@Envy. That might be why she joined the Alliance instead of Cerberus. She wanted to prove humanity wrong, not attack aliens.

[Iakus]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Wrex says things about salarians and turians because they did horrible things to his race and people. Javik says things because he was there while you were eating bananas.

Ashley watched something on television or some hate-mongering broadcast and now she hates aliens.

A real intelligent person wouldn't generalize like she does. If she had real worries about aliens and the security of the ship, she would go talk to Garrus herself or Tali and find out if they are the type of person she is willing to trust on her ship. No, instead she just hates them all. She is blinded by her own convictions and is unwilling to investigate any doubt in them. In her mind, she is too important to believe she could be wrong or that there might be aliens worth trusting.

She is a very close-minded person with really idiotic opinions. Even as a religious person, I would have to say I find her extremely disgusting.

This actually falls right in line with her character since she does it once again in ME2 and 3 where she instantly distrusts shepard, doesn't bother to investigate whether it really is shepard, and flips him/her the bird. Takes this into consideration that someone like Admiral Hacket investigates and has no qualms with trusting Shepard during Arrival.

Really? And the fact that the turians, who attacked without provocation and massacred half a garrison, coincidentally disgracing her family name, has nothing to do with it?

Also, these dialogue line: "I hope this mission helps change people's opinion of your people, Tali."
"I heard about you and Tali. Don't get me wrong, she's like a sister to me."
And if you come into the Starboard Observation Deck after the quarians die, Ash will be crying over Tali's death.

Here endeth the lesson.

Additional notes:

ME1 Ash encourages Shepard to comfort Liara after Benezia's death
Ash volunteers to go with the salarian STG team on Virmire
You ever take her to the Terra Firma rally?  She doesn't exactly volunteers to hand out pamphlets

[Shepardtheshepard]

Reorte wrote...
I don't see offspring being remotely comparable. People will of course save their loved ones because they've got an emotional connection with them. If you'd hooked up with an asari and had an asari kid that's probably the one that you'll save no matter the species of the other person. If you don't know anything about either you'd happily shove the alien into the bear's mouth? I doubt it. Species would be irrelevent in that case to any decent person because they'd just see them all as people, in the same way as race is in the real world. Replace "alien" and "dog" with "foreigner" and you'll hopefully realise how unpleasant her argument is.

Whaa? Sorry, forgive my ignorance, but I don't get what you're trying to say here. To me it looks like you're arguing against saving the idea that people will save loved ones by saying people will save loved ones!? 
If I had an asari kid, then that kid would be part of my family, thus keeping exactly with what I was trying to say.
Neither I nor Ash suggested that if you don't know anyone, then would throw them all to the bear. It was that we know X, not Y. So our priorities will be with X. Y doesn't know X. so it's priorities will be with Y.

Could you imagine U.S.A. rescuing Russian hostages over American ones? Or vice versa? Of course not, the pepole would riot like crazy over that. Would both sides help both if that was a choice? Certainly. But they have to protect their own interests first and foremost. That's just the way things go sadly.

Closer to what Ash was saying, if America had made a super-new-uber-stealthy & powerful-submarine, would they take & allow free access to some random Russians on a mission they personally are no longer needed for, or had next to nothing to do with in the first place?
Nope. The military wouldn't dare allow such a thing. Same if it was the other way around

Or more in keeping with the most recent game. Bear becomes reaper. Would you let the reapers wipe out an entire different species if that was what you had (note: Had) to do to ensure yours survived? 'Cause that's exactly what everyone else was going to do, should the need arise. It's why Shepard has to bring them together, otherwise they were going to lose to the reapers by fussing too much about themselves.

Ignore the idea of her saying "dog" as meaning lesser being. It was said to save worry about context. Not because she feels humans are better (though as I recall, but don't quote me, humans are the dog when she says it).
Running from a bear with a dog doesn't raise more questions. Whereas if she said with a stranger, your mind goes, "why would she be in the woods with a stranger? how old is this stranger? what gender? what family if any, does this stranger have? What does this stranger do for a living? What if it just so happened that this stranger is more important that this other person?" and so on.
Having it as a dog leaves you free from over analyzing in a scenario where you wouldn't have time to do so.

It's not fun and it's not easy, but that's the way things go I'm afraid. We'd all like to believe otherwise, that we're all paragonic paragons who can trust every living thing and could save everyone just by talking. But the truth is we're not like that and never have been.   



Sweet mother of wagon wheels it's 20 past 4. Naff this, I'm going to bed. Probably not wake for month or so now. 

[Foxhound2121]

Made Nightwing wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

BioWare screwed over Ashley. They began with a tough NCO who worked her guts out to excel and took her duties to the Alliance and her men seriously. When she met Shepard, he was something different. She expressed an interest and the spark took hold and kindled a romantic flame. Unfortunately, that woman was dead by ME2.
 
In ME2 we meet a young woman who has moved up in rank, but distrusts Shepard with every fiber of her being. She calls him a traitor to his face and then stalks off. When ME3 rolls around we find out that she has not contacted him since the tepid email that she sent after Horizon. Six months without a single word or even inquiry regarding him. She even refused Admiral Anderson's request for her to go and see him, such is her disdain for him.
 
Then all of a sudden Shepard and Williams find themselves in the uncomfortable position of being ship mates once again. That is until the Cerberus android nearly crushes her skull on Mars. Girlfriend pulls through and is made a Spectre with Shepard's support and she aims her sidearm at his head with her finger on the trigger as a thank you. After somehow managing to talk psycho babe down, you save the Council one more time to Williams chagrin.
 
Who is the Williams that we get in ME3, because it sure as hell isn't the woman we met in ME. Tali is pretty much the same, so is Liara, but Williams? Not so much. I have seen every excuse in the book for Williams' bizarre behavior. The apologists are legion in fact, but apologizing and excusing and licking her backside like a little lamb doesn't change the fact that she is bat guano crazy.
 
That is why I have less than no use for Lt. Cmdr. Williams. Was her comment about not being able to tell the aliens from the animals racist? Sure it was, and I don't buy for a second that it was a "mistake" in dialog. That was just the excuse when the word "racism" popped up. But just as Pressley worked through his bout of racism, so to did Williams. So in the final analysis Williams is no longer racist, she's just psychotic.
 
That's why I send her to Admiral Hackett. Perhaps with him she can finally receive the help that she so desperately needs. Plus he has armed security with him 24/7 if she returns to the "pull a gun on a superior officer" meme again.
 
Cute, but psycho is definitely her flavor.

She distrusts the fact that Shepard is working for a TERRORIST ORGANISATION! What part of this are you not getting? Yes, she calls him a traitor, BECAUSE HE TURNED HIS COAT! It doesn't matter what headcanon you have cooked up. Shepard swore and oath to the Alliance, an oath that continued to apply even after resurrection. Now, some interpret that loyalty to humanity and the galaxy means more, but that doesn't change the fact that he did betray what he previously stood for.

This is actually pretty comical since Admiral Hacket is also working with a terrorist organization during Arrival. Does this make him a traitor? Oddly enough, Ash doesn't seem to have a problem trusting admiral hacket.

[MegaBadExample]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

BioWare screwed over Ashley. They began with a tough NCO who worked her guts out to excel and took her duties to the Alliance and her men seriously. When she met Shepard, he was something different. She expressed an interest and the spark took hold and kindled a romantic flame. Unfortunately, that woman was dead by ME2.
 
In ME2 we meet a young woman who has moved up in rank, but distrusts Shepard with every fiber of her being. She calls him a traitor to his face and then stalks off. When ME3 rolls around we find out that she has not contacted him since the tepid email that she sent after Horizon. Six months without a single word or even inquiry regarding him. She even refused Admiral Anderson's request for her to go and see him, such is her disdain for him.
 
Then all of a sudden Shepard and Williams find themselves in the uncomfortable position of being ship mates once again. That is until the Cerberus android nearly crushes her skull on Mars. Girlfriend pulls through and is made a Spectre with Shepard's support and she aims her sidearm at his head with her finger on the trigger as a thank you. After somehow managing to talk psycho babe down, you save the Council one more time to Williams chagrin.
 
Who is the Williams that we get in ME3, because it sure as hell isn't the woman we met in ME. Tali is pretty much the same, so is Liara, but Williams? Not so much. I have seen every excuse in the book for Williams' bizarre behavior. The apologists are legion in fact, but apologizing and excusing and licking her backside like a little lamb doesn't change the fact that she is bat guano crazy.
 
That is why I have less than no use for Lt. Cmdr. Williams. Was her comment about not being able to tell the aliens from the animals racist? Sure it was, and I don't buy for a second that it was a "mistake" in dialog. That was just the excuse when the word "racism" popped up. But just as Pressley worked through his bout of racism, so to did Williams. So in the final analysis Williams is no longer racist, she's just psychotic.
 
That's why I send her to Admiral Hackett. Perhaps with him she can finally receive the help that she so desperately needs. Plus he has armed security with him 24/7 if she returns to the "pull a gun on a superior officer" meme again.
 
Cute, but psycho is definitely her flavor.

She distrusts the fact that Shepard is working for a TERRORIST ORGANISATION! What part of this are you not getting? Yes, she calls him a traitor, BECAUSE HE TURNED HIS COAT! It doesn't matter what headcanon you have cooked up. Shepard swore and oath to the Alliance, an oath that continued to apply even after resurrection. Now, some interpret that loyalty to humanity and the galaxy means more, but that doesn't change the fact that he did betray what he previously stood for.

This is actually pretty comical since Admiral Hacket is also working with a terrorist organization during Arrival. Does this make him a traitor? Oddly enough, Ash doesn't seem to have a problem trusting admiral hacket.

If I recall Hackett was working with Shepard and ONLY Shepard. No companions, no interaction with Cerberus. Nothing. Just Shepard. And at the time, Shepard can be completely finished with Cerberus as well (completed ME2).

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Sure, Wrex and Javik are flawed, but to point this out for the millionth time, they also have remarkably sympathetic backstories. I may not believe everything they do, but I can easily see how someone, given those same experiences, would be thrown into their respective conclusions. .

Wrex was (and continually is) sterilized by the efforts of the Salarians/Turians. And Javik is subject to the elements of cultural relativism. Ashley's prejudice is grounded in the First Contact War.

The problem is that Mass Effect 1 never really gives a crap about the First Contact War. Sure, it happened. But everything after is posed as Humanity vs. Galactic Civilization, not Humanity vs. Turians and doesn't receive the same attention as the Genophage, the creation of the Geth, etc.

The ultimate effect of the First Contact War on Ashley's life is that she...has trouble obtaining decent military positions, which seems exceptionally whiny compared to Wrex's sterilization, Tali's lack of a home, or most other characters. Really, of the entire cast, Ashley probably has the least traumatizing background possible, excluding Liara and Jacob. Even worse, since she directs her anger at the Turians, as opposed to the force directly responsible: the Alliance. It's one of the same complaints I have with the Star Wars prequels; Anakin pisses and moans about how he deserves to be a Jedi Master, but in reality his life is not that bad.

Note: My ultimate dislike of Ashley is not accusations of "racism", but having a crappy backstory/personality.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 29 mai 2012 - 03:42 .

[FlyingSquirrel]

Well, I'm not sure I "hate" Ashley, though she's one of my less favorite characters, and I don't have especially strong feelings about Javik either way. But I think you can at least make the case that Javik and Wrex have skewed points of view because of their origins. Javik came from a culture where his people had appointed themselves the dominant race, and from the way he talks, I get the impression that he honestly believes there's nothing wrong or controversial about it. It's just a set of assumptions he carries.

Wrex makes derogatory comments about other races and is understandably bitter about the genophage, but he's also pretty tough on the krogan and directs his sarcasm at his own people from time to time ("ask yourself if you've ever heard of a krogan scientist"). I seem to remember an elevator conversation with Tali in ME1 along the following lines--

Wrex: "Do your people talk much about creating the geth and getting yourselves driven off your homeworld?"
Tali: "Do your people talk much about starting a foolish war with the turians and nearly being sterilized as a result?"
Wrex: "All the time."

So it's not like he's going around acting like his own people are God's gift to the galaxy, and the Tuchanka sequences on ME2 suggest that he's actually relatively tolerant and open-minded in the context of the prevailing krogan culture.

Ashley ruffles my feathers (in ME1, at least - I let her go work for Hackett in ME3 my first time through and haven't seen much of her content there as a result) partly because it seems like her form of xenophobia and prejudice *isn't* necessarily the norm for humans. Not that we don't see it (Saracino, Pressley, maybe Mikhailovich), but there are plenty of humans who don't seem to have those sorts of attitudes - Kaidan, Anderson, Joker, Chakwas, most of the non-Renegade dialogue for Shepard. So it makes me wonder what Ashley's problem is, since it's clearly not just cultural upbringing.

[DPSSOC]

Reorte wrote...
I don't see offspring being remotely comparable. People will of course save their loved ones because they've got an emotional connection with them. If you'd hooked up with an asari and had an asari kid that's probably the one that you'll save no matter the species of the other person. If you don't know anything about either you'd happily shove the alien into the bear's mouth? I doubt it.

Not happily no but I probably would.  If I'm in a position to save two people all else being equal I'm going to save the one who looks more like me. Not because I'm racist but because the more similar someone is to me the more relatable I find them and the more favourably I view them. That's not a result of concious thought or conditioning it's a hard wired response. We gravitate to those most like us. It's why things like tolerance and accepting other people's differences need to be taught, because it goes against our natural inclination.

Reorte wrote...
Species would be irrelevent in that case to any decent person because they'd just see them all as people, in the same way as race is in the real world. Replace "alien" and "dog" with "foreigner" and you'll hopefully realise how unpleasant her argument is.

I might leave a krogan behind on the assumption that he'd stand a good chance against the bear anyway :happy:

Yes it's an unpleasant argument, it's also completely realistic.  The Council has demonstrated three times in their history (at least) that they will throw other species under the bus to secure their own positions.  Krogan to the Rachni, Humans to the Batarians, and Humans again to the Reapers.  The alien governments will always look to their goals first, and they will sacrifice other species for those goals; again it's not a pleasant notion, but it's how the world/galaxy works.

Lyrebon wrote...

The problem with Ashley's "dog-bear" analogy is that she compares every alien race to an inferior intelligence we keep as pets, that lick their balls and pant/yap emphatically whenever "walkies" is mentioned.

As has been pointed out in that analogy humans were the dog. She was expressing her belief that the Council races will always look out for themselves first and they won't hesitate to sacrifice humanity to do it. As such humanity cannot afford absolute trust with the aliens; they are allies only because and for as long as it benefits them to be allies. They've demonstrated this behaviour with the Krogan, Quarians, Batarians, and Humans and I really don't get why people still argue this.

[Made Nightwing]

Shepard's interaction with Ash was, "Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes? Come join my team and commit treason."

Hackett's interaction with Shepard was. "I need you to do a favour for me, without Cerberus or Alliance involvement. "

And Shepard's like. "Damn, you're a badass Hackett!"

And Hackett's like. "Yes I am!"

[EnvyTB075]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Envy. That might be why she joined the Alliance instead of Cerberus. She wanted to prove humanity wrong, not attack aliens.

Doubt it, considering that even though the Normandy was Turian/Human design (co-operation bells-a-singing), she still didn't want Garrus on board, and the only reason she accepted him and the rest was because Shepard effectively told her to.

I'd be less convinced if you could manage to sway her view, but she still comes across as a human supremist to me.

[Made Nightwing]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Well, I'm not sure I "hate" Ashley, though she's one of my less favorite characters, and I don't have especially strong feelings about Javik either way. But I think you can at least make the case that Javik and Wrex have skewed points of view because of their origins. Javik came from a culture where his people had appointed themselves the dominant race, and from the way he talks, I get the impression that he honestly believes there's nothing wrong or controversial about it. It's just a set of assumptions he carries.

Wrex makes derogatory comments about other races and is understandably bitter about the genophage, but he's also pretty tough on the krogan and directs his sarcasm at his own people from time to time ("ask yourself if you've ever heard of a krogan scientist"). I seem to remember an elevator conversation with Tali in ME1 along the following lines--

Wrex: "Do your people talk much about creating the geth and getting yourselves driven off your homeworld?"
Tali: "Do your people talk much about starting a foolish war with the turians and nearly being sterilized as a result?"
Wrex: "All the time."

So it's not like he's going around acting like his own people are God's gift to the galaxy, and the Tuchanka sequences on ME2 suggest that he's actually relatively tolerant and open-minded in the context of the prevailing krogan culture.

Ashley ruffles my feathers (in ME1, at least - I let her go work for Hackett in ME3 my first time through and haven't seen much of her content there as a result) partly because it seems like her form of xenophobia and prejudice *isn't* necessarily the norm for humans. Not that we don't see it (Saracino, Pressley, maybe Mikhailovich), but there are plenty of humans who don't seem to have those sorts of attitudes - Kaidan, Anderson, Joker, Chakwas, most of the non-Renegade dialogue for Shepard. So it makes me wonder what Ashley's problem is, since it's clearly not just cultural upbringing.

Except she doesn't have any xenophobia or prejudice. Quoting elevator conversations again.

Ashley: "I hope this mission helps change people's opinion of the quarians, Tali."

Her concerns about the aliens on the ship are due to the fact that they're random walk ins with no loyalty to the Alliance, yet with top level access to Alliance equipment. She's concerned about espionage and/or sabotage. The fact that they're aliens is secondary to the fact that they're foreign nationals.

And if you notice something else, Tali DID steal the Normandy's stealth schematics, ever notice the quarian courier ship in ME3?

[Made Nightwing]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Envy. That might be why she joined the Alliance instead of Cerberus. She wanted to prove humanity wrong, not attack aliens.

Doubt it, considering that even though the Normandy was Turian/Human design (co-operation bells-a-singing), she still didn't want Garrus on board, and the only reason she accepted him and the rest was because Shepard effectively told her to.

I'd be less convinced if you could manage to sway her view, but she still comes across as a human supremist to me.

If what Ash says makes her a human supremist, then that must make Tali a quarian supremist. Garrus was not a member of the turian military, he wasn't even a member of C-Sec. He's a loose cannon. The representatives we see of each species in the game want to protect their own, it's natural. Shepard didn't tell her to accept Tali, yet she forms a sisterly bond with her.

[Catamantaloedis]

@ Dominus Solanum

You're the one who said you disdained theists, not me. Additionally, if you disdain or dislike all theists, as you say, then you are still a bigot.

Im not emotional about it as all. I'm apathetic. Believe or not, you're not the first close-minded person who's prejudiced against all religious people that I've met on the Internet, nor will you be the last?

Modifié par Catamantaloedis, 29 mai 2012 - 03:59 .

[Iakus]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

Doubt it, considering that even though the Normandy was Turian/Human design (co-operation bells-a-singing), she still didn't want Garrus on board, and the only reason she accepted him and the rest was because Shepard effectively told her to.

I'd be less convinced if you could manage to sway her view, but she still comes across as a human supremist to me.

She had a problem with Garrus having unrestricted access to the Normandy's Systems.  Even if the ship was a joint design, there are still secret Alliance systems in place. Stuff that Earth is keeping from other governments.  Even "allies"

[Foxhound2121]

MegaBadExample wrote...

If I recall Hackett was working with Shepard and ONLY Shepard. No companions, no interaction with Cerberus. Nothing. Just Shepard. And at the time, Shepard can be completely finished with Cerberus as well (completed ME2).

Arrival can be done long before the end of ME2. Hacket literally says that he is happy that cerberus is doing something about the state of the galaxy. He knowingly enters a terrorist vessle, and he is working with a terrorist operative as far as Ash is concerned. 

[PrinceLionheart]

Because they're aliens.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 29 mai 2012 - 04:11 .

[Made Nightwing]

Foxhound2121 wrote...

MegaBadExample wrote...

If I recall Hackett was working with Shepard and ONLY Shepard. No companions, no interaction with Cerberus. Nothing. Just Shepard. And at the time, Shepard can be completely finished with Cerberus as well (completed ME2).

Arrival can be done long before the end of ME2. Hacket literally says that he is happy that cerberus is doing something about the state of the galaxy. He knowingly enters a terrorist vessle, and he is working with a terrorist operative as far as Ash is concerned. 

Again, when he comissions Shepard to do the job, he's comissioning Shepard. Not Cerberus. He's also an Admiral of the Alliance Fleet, with immunity from prosecution for his actions. For him to participate in negotiations with a terrorist organisation is permitted, look at the negotiations that go on between the US and the Taliban. But an NCO, even a senior one, would be charged with treason.

[FlyingSquirrel]

Made Nightwing wrote...
Her concerns about the aliens on the ship are due to the fact that they're random walk ins with no loyalty to the Alliance, yet with top level access to Alliance equipment. She's concerned about espionage and/or sabotage. The fact that they're aliens is secondary to the fact that they're foreign nationals.

Well, the infamous dog analogy does seem to focus more on differences between species, though. And doesn't she openly say something about not being "a big fan of aliens" on Horizon in ME2? I'm not saying she's some sort of rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth nutcase, but I do think she holds prejudices about aliens to an extent that many of the other human characters don't.

And if you notice something else, Tali DID steal the Normandy's stealth schematics, ever notice the quarian courier ship in ME3?

Not sure what you're alluding to, but could this have just been a coincidence or BW reusing a graphic? The ME games don't normally seem to require us to read between the lines to that extent - if we were meant to believe that Tali stole schematics, I think it would come up in the dialogue somewhere.

Even so, that doesn't necessarily vindicate Ashley - IIRC, she only expresses concern about Garrus and Wrex and doesn't say anything about Tali. And I would say that her concern is off the mark about Garrus at the very least - I think he'd certainly ask Shepard first, and if he did ever decide to go against Shepard, I think he would do it for the sake of the galaxy as a whole and not just the turians.

[FOX216BC]

 

[Made Nightwing]

FlyingSquirrel wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
Her concerns about the aliens on the ship are due to the fact that they're random walk ins with no loyalty to the Alliance, yet with top level access to Alliance equipment. She's concerned about espionage and/or sabotage. The fact that they're aliens is secondary to the fact that they're foreign nationals.

Well, the infamous dog analogy does seem to focus more on differences between species, though. And doesn't she openly say something about not being "a big fan of aliens" on Horizon in ME2? I'm not saying she's some sort of rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth nutcase, but I do think she holds prejudices about aliens to an extent that many of the other human characters don't.

And if you notice something else, Tali DID steal the Normandy's stealth schematics, ever notice the quarian courier ship in ME3?

Not sure what you're alluding to, but could this have just been a coincidence or BW reusing a graphic? The ME games don't normally seem to require us to read between the lines to that extent - if we were meant to believe that Tali stole schematics, I think it would come up in the dialogue somewhere.

Even so, that doesn't necessarily vindicate Ashley - IIRC, she only expresses concern about Garrus and Wrex and doesn't say anything about Tali. And I would say that her concern is off the mark about Garrus at the very least - I think he'd certainly ask Shepard first, and if he did ever decide to go against Shepard, I think he would do it for the sake of the galaxy as a whole and not just the turians.

Hardly. It simply states that the guy in charge will, where necessary for self survival, use the guy not in charge to his own benefit. Ash isn't even advocating that humanity stop being the dog. She just wants humanity to be a dog that can survive without the master (read, Citadel). She sees the Council as the humans that would sic the dog (humanity) on the bear.

It actually states when you meet the courier ship that it appears to be cooling down in a similar manner to the Normandy's own stealth drives. Since humanity are the only ones who have that technology, there's only one place they could have gotten it. It completely vindicates Ashley's concern that their 'allies' might take advantage of them for their own benefit. Not out of racism, but simply out of loyalty to their own nation. Nothing racist about it. A little paranoid, maybe, but justifiably so considering humanity's fragile place in the galaxy.

[DRTJR]

I was replaying ME1 and it just hit me, why doesn't Rear Admiral Malkovich complain about Tali in the Engien room, being part of a race of space gypsies. Did Humans get their collective asses saved by a group of Quarians? Same with Ashley, no qualms with Tali in the engine room. Is there a reason that Humanity is on better relations with the Quarians than the rest of the galaxy?

[lordofdogtown19]

blooregard wrote...

wrex is funny
javik is funny
ashley isn't funny

This.

But the real reason I resent Ashley is because she killed Wrex on my very first playthough. Still haven't forgot about that, but I actually do like her as a character