771 réponses à ce sujet

[Made Nightwing]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

BioWare's already said that the line was bugged. Your problem, not hers.

Telephone game. Got proof?

Made Nightwing wrote... 
"I worked with terrorists, after having disappeared for two years and giving no hint as to my whereabouts. I'm sorry that you thought I'd gone completely off the rails like Saren, who also tried to justify his actions with roundabout logic."

Better.

"I was dead for two years. Which I explicitly told you on Horizon. And Anderson wouldn't tell me how to contact you when I went to see him. What did you want me to do, e-mail you from beyond the grave?"

Seriously, logic.

It was stated by a BioWare staffer. If you're interested, ask them on Twitter, I can guarantee what their response will be.

Because the logical thing to assume is that he got brought back from the dead, right? Despite being against all possible medical logic and practical possibility? Of course, how silly Ash was for assuming that you survived, rather than realising that you obviously died and got resurrected. And how could she possibly assume that the reason that you've disappeared for two years, since she's already made the logical assumption that you survived the crash, is because you've turned your coat.

You claim logic, yet use none.

[kumquats]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

But then you've got Wrex who just openly insult Salarians and Turians in front of them, even go as far as joking about eating them. Then you've got Javik who just straight out trolls people. Not to mention there are other characters in the game that have made statements about trusting other aliens and what not. So why is Ashley the exception? Because she's human?

I don't know why it took me this long to notice this.

I don't blame Wrex. Genophage is a big deal.

Well yes, you answered your own question, why people think that Ashley is a racist and that Javik is cool. Because Ashley is a mirror and she shows us, how we human behave towards something we don't know. We are a hostile race, no matter how nice we view ourselves.
Javik is an alien, we don't see ourselves in him, we see it more like a funky character trade.

And the last reason of course, Javik has an character arc. Ashley is just a romance cameo and people don't have a connection to her in ME3 at all.
BW should fix that.

[Made Nightwing]

@kumquats. Not just with Ash. Jacob, Thane, Miranda, Garrus, etc. Anyone who isn't Liara or Tali has no relevance to the story and is essentially just there for the people that romanced them in previous games. Very disapointing.

[kumquats]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@kumquats. Not just with Ash. Jacob, Thane, Miranda, Garrus, etc. Anyone who isn't Liara or Tali has no relevance to the story and is essentially just there for the people that romanced them in previous games. Very disapointing.

Yes of course, I only talked about Ashley, because we are discussing her, but there are a lot of characters who suffer the same fate. Ashley should have had the same treatment as Kaidan at least.
He even makes fun of his haters, who think that he is a dull character. Ashley is just drunk on the floor.

[Made Nightwing]

kumquats wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

@kumquats. Not just with Ash. Jacob, Thane, Miranda, Garrus, etc. Anyone who isn't Liara or Tali has no relevance to the story and is essentially just there for the people that romanced them in previous games. Very disapointing.

Yes of course, I only talked about Ashley, because we are discussing her, but there are a lot of characters who suffer the same fate. Ashley should have had the same treatment as Kaidan at least.
He even makes fun of his haters, who think that he is a dull character. Ashley is just drunk on the floor.

Though that scene is hilarious. She also has the Citadel scene with her sister, which I loved. But yeah, it's not an isolated thing, and it needs to be fixed.

[PsyrenY]

Made Nightwing wrote...

It was stated by a BioWare staffer. If you're interested, ask them on Twitter, I can guarantee what their response will be.

Why should I waste my time proving your faulty arguments?

Made Nightwing wrote... 
Because the logical thing to assume is that he got brought back from the dead, right? Despite being against all possible medical logic and practical possibility? Of course, how silly Ash was for assuming that you survived, rather than realising that you obviously died and got resurrected.

Considering that's, you know, what you told her, it's no longer a matter of assuming and a matter of trust. 
What compounds the matter is that SHE BELIEVES IT'S REALLY YOU! She says so herself. So in reality, she's just being a ****! 

 

Made Nightwing wrote...  
And how could she possibly assume that the reason that you've disappeared for two years, since she's already made the logical assumption that you survived the crash, is because you've turned your coat.

With Garrus/Tali standing right next to you, right? And Joker flying overhead?
Cerberus must have made you all watch the same Hypnotoad video I guess. 

Made Nightwing wrote...  
You claim logic, yet use none.

None of the bad, Nightwing kind anyway :innocent:

[ticklefist]

Ashley isn't racist. She doesn't feel other species are incapable or worse beings. If anything, and I'm not putting this in stone, she's only slightly phobic. A natural fear/caution when it comes to the unknown. Doesn't trust freely but as the game showed numerous times her trust can be earned.

Still obnoxious as hell tho.

[Made Nightwing]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

It was stated by a BioWare staffer. If you're interested, ask them on Twitter, I can guarantee what their response will be.

Why should I waste my time proving your faulty arguments?

Made Nightwing wrote... 
Because the logical thing to assume is that he got brought back from the dead, right? Despite being against all possible medical logic and practical possibility? Of course, how silly Ash was for assuming that you survived, rather than realising that you obviously died and got resurrected.

Considering that's, you know, what you told her, it's no longer a matter of assuming and a matter of trust. 
What compounds the matter is that SHE BELIEVES IT'S REALLY YOU! She says so herself. So in reality, she's just being a ****! 

 

Made Nightwing wrote...  
And how could she possibly assume that the reason that you've disappeared for two years, since she's already made the logical assumption that you survived the crash, is because you've turned your coat.

With Garrus/Tali standing right next to you, right? And Joker flying overhead?
Cerberus must have made you all watch the same Hypnotoad video I guess. 

Made Nightwing wrote...  
You claim logic, yet use none.

None of the bad, Nightwing kind anyway :innocent:

An opponent who can't be bothered to educate himself is of little worth in a debate. Nevertheless, the line was bugged, meant to appear only around the Keepers. Should you care to ask BioWare to disprove me, you are welcome, until then, we will go off what has been stated.

I'd like to live your world, where people don't turn traitor, where they don't lie, and where everyone should believe everything everyone says. It must be a nice delusion to repeat to yourself every night before you go to sleep. Garrus. The loose cannon cop who has also disappeared for two years. Joker. The guy who never had any particular loyalty to the Alliance anyway, and has also disappeared for a while. And Cerberus. The same organisation that has subverted members of species as random as the Volus. The same organisation that makes insane experiments and unethical long term goals its buisness model. Yes. She believes it's you. But until Cronos Station, she doesn't have any idea that you were actually clinically dead, given that that is impossible. Saren turned traitor and used 'I'm doing the right thing' as an excuse. For all Ash knew, Shepard was doing the same thing. Remember how Nihilus turned his back on Saren right before he got shot in the head? Nihilus took Saren at his word. Big mistake.

It's quite simple. Before the true nature of the IRA became revealed, the USA supplied them with weapons, believing them to be 'doing some good', and 'ends justifying the means'. My mentor at cadets, a former member of the Royal Marines, was shot at multiple times by CAR-15 rifles sold to the IRA by the US Government. In this case, Cerberus is the IRA, Ashley is the Marine getting shot at, and she thinks Shepard is taking the role that the US government took with the IRA.

Was she wrong? Yes. Was her suspicion justified? Considering the Nihilus/Saren situation? Yes, absolutely. If you pride yourself on 'logic', yet still think Ashley is irrational, then I suggest you rethink your chain of thought.

[PsyrenY]

Made Nightwing wrote...

An opponent who can't be bothered to educate himself is of little worth in a debate. Nevertheless, the line was bugged, meant to appear only around the Keepers. Should you care to ask BioWare to disprove me, you are welcome, until then, we will go off what has been stated.

That's not how it works. You're making the positive claim ("Bioware said X") therefore it is your responsibility to support it. Here, I'll show you - Bioware stated that they intentionally made Ashley obnoxious so that players would be more inclined to save Kaidan. Until you ask Bioware to disprove this, well, we will have to go off what has been stated.

 

Made Nightwing wrote... 
I'd like to live your world, where people don't turn traitor, where they don't lie, and where everyone should believe everything everyone says.

And I'd like to live in yours where a person's record and character have nothing to do with how much they should be trusted.
Oh wait, actually I wouldn't. But at least you have Ashley to live there with you.

Made Nightwing wrote...  
Garrus. The loose cannon cop who has also disappeared for two years. Joker. The guy who never had any particular loyalty to the Alliance anyway, and has also disappeared for a while.

Again, ignoring record and character. I hope at least the weather on your planet is nice.

Made Nightwing wrote...   
And Cerberus. The same organisation that has subverted members of species as random as the Volus. The same organisation that makes insane experiments and unethical long term goals its buisness model. Yes. She believes it's you. But until Cronos Station, she doesn't have any idea that you were actually clinically dead, given that that is impossible.

Shepard didn't know that either. In fact, Cronos was the first time that Shepard himself/herself questioned that s/he might not actually be Shepard.

But you want to know who did believe Shepard was Shepard? Anderson. Aka La Supreme ****'s commanding officer. And when the CO believes it, the grunt's opinion is irrelevant. I'm actually shocked we're having this conversation.

Made Nightwing wrote...    
Saren turned traitor and used 'I'm doing the right thing' as an excuse. For all Ash knew, Shepard was doing the same thing. Remember how Nihilus turned his back on Saren right before he got shot in the head? Nihilus took Saren at his word. Big mistake.

Must be why she never turned her back on you while walking away.
Oh, wait.

Made Nightwing wrote...    
Was she wrong? Yes. Was her suspicion justified? Considering the Nihilus/Saren situation? Yes, absolutely. If you pride yourself on 'logic', yet still think Ashley is irrational, then I suggest you rethink your chain of thought.

Likewise.
Anderson, even the Council, trusted you, yet Queen Ashley did not. She did not even have the decency to show half the contrition that Kaidan did.

Face it, you haven't a leg to stand on.

[Made Nightwing]

Going in search of a twitter user who can go ask the question now. However, you will notice that she does not say the line anywhere else on the Citadel, only on the Presidium, and ONLY in close proximity to the Keepers (about ten metres is the closest I've tried). BW simply mucked up the distances.

Saren also had an exemplary record. Youngest ever Spectre, decorated war hero, considered a saviour of the galaxy a dozen times over. Yet he turned traitor even without indoctrination. Shepard disappeared for two years. Garrus disappeared for two years. Not sure how long Joker quite the Alliance for, but regardless. In a court case, the record and character of someone on trial have to be recent, not two years dated and with no idea what they've been up to in the meantime. You seem to have no problem ascribing a radical change in character to Ash, so why should she not suspect the same of Garrus, Joker and Shepard? They're the ones who show up working for a terrorist organisation. Terrorist. Key word here. Evil, using fear as a weapon bad guys? Any of this ringing a bell? Doesn't matter what the character of someone is. If they show up working for terrorists and they haven't been ordered to do so, they shouldn't expect be treated like the Prodigal Son.

Indeed, she suffered the same problem as Nihilus did, didn't actually believe Shepard would shoot her. I would have kept my gun trained on Shepard the whole time, but I don't think Ash feared for her personal safety. She just wasn't willing to commit treason and work for terrorists.

The Council didn't trust you at all. They roundaboutly suggested that Shepard was guilty of treason and refused any aid. Anderson's been Shepard's mentor for half his life, he has also been engaged in negotiations and talks with Cerberus as the Shadow Broker's vids show. However, as an Admiral/Councillor, Anderson has the responsibility of negotiating with the enemy. As a special forces operator, Ashley is responsible for killing the enemy. Shepard shows up, working for the enemy. Considering that The Illusive Man specifically recruits familiar faces and sympathetic crew so that Shepard won't see the true nature of Cerberus, she is again, proven right.

Then remember how Vega's entire unit got wiped out by the Collectors because a Cerberus infiltrator betrayed them. Then remember how many Alliance and C-Sec officers helped Cerberus get onto the Citadel. Then remember how many aliens also assisted in this operation (the Volus ambassador could hardly have been working alone, or the only one corrupted). Cerberus are terrorists, but they have no problem recruiting loyal Alliance officers or aliens to their banner. If I were Shepard, the first thing I would have done would have been to send an all points bulletin to everyone I knew, saying : 'Alright, this may seem weird, but I'm actually alive again. Due to unforseen circumstances, I am being forced to work with Cerberus. Contact Anderson for additional information.'

Part of the blame even lies with Anderson. Ash is operating outside of Alliance space, her very life depending on good intel and Anderson couldn't even bother to keep her informed. Forced drama on BioWare's part, yet the consequences are completely understandable.

Kaidan's not a confrontational type.

Modifié par Made Nightwing, 30 mai 2012 - 09:11 .

[PsyrenY]

Made Nightwing wrote... 

Going in search of a twitter user who can go ask the question now. However, you will notice that she does not say the line anywhere else on the Citadel, only on the Presidium, and ONLY in close proximity to the Keepers (about ten metres is the closest I've tried). BW simply mucked up the distances.

I was nowhere near a keeper when I heard it. I was on the ledge above Barla Von's bank, near the Krogan statue. Why I remember that I don't know, maybe her comment was just that off-putting, but you still have no evidence so it's kind of moot.

And as others in the thread noted, it says a lot about her character that she'd make a statement like that, surrounded by aliens, without clarifying exactly which aliens she was referring to. (Not that limiting it to the Keepers magically makes it less offensive just because they're less likely to object.)

Made Nightwing wrote...  
Saren also had an exemplary record. Youngest ever Spectre, decorated war hero, considered a saviour of the galaxy a dozen times over.

The bad parts of his record - the parts that confirmed how racist, nasty and brutish he was - were all classified due to his Spectre status or glossed over due to his effectiveness. Were Shepard's? Were Joker's? Were Garrus'?

Made Nightwing wrote...  
You seem to have no problem ascribing a radical change in character to Ash

Just quoting her own words. "I'm not the same person, and neither are you." Obviously she pulled her judgment of Shep out of her well-toned posterior, but I'm at least willing to believe that she has a decent idea of herself. It's just not one that I find endearing.

Made Nightwing wrote...  
, so why should she not suspect the same of Garrus, Joker and Shepard? They're the ones who show up working for a terrorist organisation. Terrorist. Key word here.

Gee, I don't know, maybe the fact that they are historically xenophobic, yet somehow have a cause dire enough to get aliens to sign up? How about the fact that with their help you just drove away the Greater Evil that almost kidnapped her distrusting ass? You know, little things like that.

Made Nightwing wrote...  
Indeed, she suffered the same problem as Nihilus did, didn't actually believe Shepard would shoot her. I would have kept my gun trained on Shepard the whole time, but I don't think Ash feared for her personal safety. She just wasn't willing to commit treason and work for terrorists.

Of course she didn't fear for her personal safety; she quite blithely pulled a 180 and exposed her back to you all the way across the courtyard. But I'm not upset with her for that, so it's irrelevant.

"Wasn't willing to commit treason?" Then what exactly did you call it when the two of you overrode the Normandy's lockdown and stole the ship? Along with kidnapping its crew?

As for "not willing to work for terrorists," Tali put it best. "I'm not working for Cerberus; I'm working for you." Chakwas says the exact same thing. But I guess they're both totally unreasonable people.

Made Nightwing wrote...  
The Council didn't trust you at all. They roundaboutly suggested that Shepard was guilty of treason and refused any aid. Anderson's been Shepard's mentor for half his life, he has also been engaged in negotiations and talks with Cerberus as the Shadow Broker's vids show. However, as an Admiral/Councillor, Anderson has the responsibility of negotiating with the enemy. As a special forces operator, Ashley is responsible for killing the enemy. Shepard shows up, working for the enemy. Considering that The Illusive Man specifically recruits familiar faces and sympathetic crew so that Shepard won't see the true nature of Cerberus, she is again, proven right.

Shepard shows up USING the enemy, actually. And Ash is wrong, both then and in ME3 when she thinks you're still with them.

Made Nightwing wrote...  
Then remember how Vega's entire unit got wiped out by the Collectors because a Cerberus infiltrator betrayed them. Then remember how many Alliance and C-Sec officers helped Cerberus get onto the Citadel. Then remember how many aliens also assisted in this operation (the Volus ambassador could hardly have been working alone, or the only one corrupted).

Irrelevant, none of those are Shepard.

Made Nightwing wrote...  

Part of the blame even lies with Anderson. Ash is operating outside of Alliance space, her very life depending on good intel and Anderson couldn't even bother to keep her informed. Forced drama on BioWare's part, yet the consequences are completely understandable.

This is the one thing I'll agree with you on. Anderson's closed-mouthedness does exacerbate the situation more than it has to. He should have ordered his lieutenant to fall in line and leave the thinking to him.

Made Nightwing wrote...  
Kaidan's not a confrontational type.

Bullcrap, of course he is. He's just not as pigheaded. He had no more problems pulling his gun on you than she did. The difference is that he made a point of apologizing afterward. You know, like humans do.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 30 mai 2012 - 11:35 .

[Made Nightwing]

There is no ledge above Barla Von's bank. The krogan statue is down the other end, closer to Sha'ira. In both places there are keepers within spitting distance.

His attitude in that regard was restricted to humans. Can't blame him, really, humans seem a little pushy in game to me. He was considered a hero by everyone who knew him, especially by the Council. A hero can fall, be corrupted, or indoctrinated.

I'm not quite sure I see your point? She knows that she herself has changed. Logically, a man who was presumed dead showing up after two years should have a good explanation, or else he's just covering up. Shepard's explanation was 'Oh, you should trust me, derp.' I didn't hear a single word out of his mouth that actually made sense. Just 'You should trust my reasons'. What a load of bull. Shepard should have said something that actually made sense. "It's been too long Ash! How have you been?"

Yep, but as the books and games show, Cerberus has never had any trouble convincing aliens to sign on, whether for money or ideology. Hell, Garrus goes on blind loyalty to Shepard, an act that while admirable was illogical. If Shepard really had been corrupted, do you think Garrus would have said anything? Or just gone along like a doormat, as per usual. And the whole 'driving off the Collectors' thing would have been so much more sympathetic if Cerberus hadn't lured them there in the first place and sabotaged the colony comm relays. And, y'know, later sold out whole colonies to the Collectors, like on Fel.

Shepard was following the orders of a superior officer, Captain Anderson, albeit, orders he really wanted to follow. The only orders they were defying were from the Council and Udina, two authorities that have no say over Alliance vessels anyway. Given that Joker was then able to go and immediately join up with Hackett's forces, I wouldn't say that the Alliance cared much about them disobeying a politican's orders. No treason involved. Working with terrorists, however, who have murdered Alliance soldiers and politicians, is treason, no matter how you try to slice it. Negotiating with them, like Hackett and Anderson do, is simply politics, they don't work to further Cerberus goals. Shepard goes where Cerberus tells him, fights their wars, provides them with key information and technology (even if he destroys the Collector base, they still get the exact same tech off the ruins).

Tali is granted special dispensation from the Migrant Fleet to leave. And even before that, she knows that as an Admiral's daughter, she is pretty much immune from major repercussions, like exile, just for signing up with Shepard. As you like to point out all the time, Ash is a soldier. Do you honestly think a board of Alliance admirals would deal as leniently with her as they do with Joker or Chakwas? A 'problem' soldier from a disgraced family signing on with Cerberus? Shepard and Joker's war hero status got them six months in comfortable house arrest. Ashley's execution date would probably have been rolling around by the time the Reapers showed up.

Chakwas' line almost made me want to throw up at the sheer amount of hubris in her reasoning. If you take someone's money and work toward their goals, they are employing you. If you use their resources and work toward their goals, you are willingly accepting their aid, and giving them aid in return. It seemed like Chakwas was going 'Oh hur, I'm so clever for using them!' Compare the Illusive Man's intelligence with that of Shepard and it's quite clear who's using who. Observe 'You were a tool with a singular purpose.'

No, but they are people who are assumed to be 'good guys'. Just like Shepard. And their friends and colleagues trusted them, right up until they turned. Blind trust is worse than useless, as is trusting someone based on such nebulous things as 'character' and 'record'.

Right, because an army of idiots that don't think for themselves and mindlessly obey every order their leaders give them has always produced such good results, hasn't it? (Thinks back to My Lai massacre, Holocaust, etc) Oh no, it hasn't.

On Mars, she simply wants to know if Shepard knows what they're up to. She's after info. She wants to know that this isn't just another Cerberus long con (you think Cerberus operatives in the Alliance never fired on their own people to maintain their cover?). Her trust is ridiculously easy to gain.

Ashley also apologises, she just doesn't feel the need to repeat those apologies every five seconds. While some points you make about Horizon are justified, the Citadel confrontation is all on Shepard. He turns up, points his weapon at the guy in charge, and doesn't even say anything until Udina's already blabbering. Honestly, what was Shepard thinking going in with guns up? What was Udina going to do? He should have been taken into custody easily, like Anoleias on Noveria.

[Made Nightwing]

And re your last point. The gun pulling is not confrontational. That's standing up and protecting the people you've sworn to defend from a man who's apparently gone off his rocker.

[Apocaleepse360]

I just hate Ashley because of her attitude towards me in ME3. I would have let Kaiden live if I knew she was going to be that difficult to talk to. And her new appearance? Not a big fan of it at all.

[PsyrenY]

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote...

There is no ledge above Barla Von's bank. The krogan statue is down the other end, closer to Sha'ira. In both places there are keepers within spitting distance.[/quote]

Interesting. Still waiting for that Bioware quote.

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 

I'm not quite sure I see your point? She knows that she herself has changed. Logically, a man who was presumed dead showing up after two years should have a good explanation, or else he's just covering up. Shepard's explanation was 'Oh, you should trust me, derp.'[/quote]

"I died, which you witnessed and Joker/Liara/Garrus/Tali/Anderson can corroborate, and my current association with Cerberus is purely a matter of convenience" is hardly "derp." Unless that's how you communicate every idea to a mind as simple as hers, anyway, in which case I understand.

 [quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
I didn't hear a single word out of his mouth that actually made sense. Just 'You should trust my reasons'. What a load of bull. Shepard should have said something that actually made sense. "It's been too long Ash! How have you been?"[/quote]

Protip: The conversation continued after the reintroduction.

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
Yep, but as the books and games show, Cerberus has never had any trouble convincing aliens to sign on, whether for money or ideology. Hell, Garrus goes on blind loyalty to Shepard, an act that while admirable was illogical. If Shepard really had been corrupted, do you think Garrus would have said anything? Or just gone along like a doormat, as per usual.[/quote]

I don't know that, since Shepard was never actually corrupted, but neither do you. The point is that Garrus made a much more informed decision than Ash did.

There's a pertinent saying - "keep your friends close, but your enemies closer." If you really don't trust someone, it's a bit silly to let them know you don't trust them, followed by letting them out of your sight, especially in a perfect replica of what was once the Alliance's most advanced warship. If she had at least acted buddy-buddy but begged off to go see Anderson asap and get his input, I'd have at least respected her for being crafty.

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
And the whole 'driving off the Collectors' thing would have been so much more sympathetic if Cerberus hadn't lured them there in the first place and sabotaged the colony comm relays. And, y'know, later sold out whole colonies to the Collectors, like on Fel.[/quote]

Had they not done that, the Collectors' next strike would have been totally random, leaving nothing behind but ghosts and half-eaten dinners. TIM was at least right about that much.

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
Shepard was following the orders of a superior officer, Captain Anderson, albeit, orders he really wanted to follow. The only orders they were defying were from the Council and Udina, two authorities that have no say over Alliance vessels anyway.[/quote]

Oh, don't they? Then how was Normandy impounded to begin with and everyone (Anderson included) relieved of duty?

No, Udina had the authority by the chain of command. Shepard even flat-out says that stealing Normandy would be mutiny. Treason is treason, don't try to sugarcoat it.

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
Working with terrorists, however, who have murdered Alliance soldiers and politicians, is treason, no matter how you try to slice it.[/quote]

Except Hackett was pretty forgiving of that one too, giving you very classified Alliance missions to do in between your Cerberus runs, especially really sensitive stuff like Arrival. So even he could see that you weren't a Cerberus drone, but Queen Assley couldn't?

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
As you like to point out all the time, Ash is a soldier. Do you honestly think a board of Alliance admirals would deal as leniently with her as they do with Joker or Chakwas?[/quote]

Overblown concerns. With Anderson and Hackett having her back, she has no personal liability. And even if they discouraged her from joining up, she would then have you.

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
A 'problem' soldier from a disgraced family signing on with Cerberus? Shepard and Joker's war hero status got them six months in comfortable house arrest. Ashley's execution date would probably have been rolling around by the time the Reapers showed up.[/quote]

Patently ridiculous, as Ash is a "war hero" too after ME1. She even got promoted between games, so clearly her "disgraced family" was no longer an issue long before you came back to life.

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
Chakwas' line almost made me want to throw up at the sheer amount of hubris in her reasoning. If you take someone's money and work toward their goals, they are employing you. If you use their resources and work toward their goals, you are willingly accepting their aid, and giving them aid in return. It seemed like Chakwas was going 'Oh hur, I'm so clever for using them!' Compare the Illusive Man's intelligence with that of Shepard and it's quite clear who's using who. Observe 'You were a tool with a singular purpose.'[/quote]

Hubris is only misplaced pride. Hers in you was not. "I have faith that your dealings with Cerberus will be ethical." And lo and behold, the least ethical things you could do (e.g. Arrival) were not Cerberus missions at all. She was right, so you may as well get out the barf bag now.

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
No, but they are people who are assumed to be 'good guys'. Just like Shepard. And their friends and colleagues trusted them, right up until they turned. Blind trust is worse than useless, as is trusting someone based on such nebulous things as 'character' and 'record'.[/quote]

And distrusting them simply because they've been gone for awhile? You're right, that's so much less blind. :innocent:

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
Right, because an army of idiots that don't think for themselves and mindlessly obey every order their leaders give them has always produced such good results, hasn't it? (Thinks back to My Lai massacre, Holocaust, etc) Oh no, it hasn't.[/quote]

How are those even remotely relevant to this situation? Are you this fond of non sequiturs?

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
On Mars, she simply wants to know if Shepard knows what they're up to. She's after info. She wants to know that this isn't just another Cerberus long con (you think Cerberus operatives in the Alliance never fired on their own people to maintain their cover?). Her trust is ridiculously easy to gain.[/quote]

You don't actually gain it until the Citadel coup, you do realize this?

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
Ashley also apologises, she just doesn't feel the need to repeat those apologies every five seconds.[/quote]

Neither did Kaidan. But more than once would have been nice.

[quote]Made Nightwing wrote... 
While some points you make about Horizon are justified, the Citadel confrontation is all on Shepard. He turns up, points his weapon at the guy in charge, and doesn't even say anything until Udina's already blabbering. Honestly, what was Shepard thinking going in with guns up? What was Udina going to do? He should have been taken into custody easily, like Anoleias on Noveria.[/quote]

Did you even watch that scene? Shepard lowers her gun right after Ashley does, and keeps it lowered until Udina goes for the console. This is despite the fact that Ashley raises hers before that, when Udina starts yammering.

"For all we know, s/he's still with them."
"Hate to say it, but he's got a point."

Seriously? Did the first half of the game not happen for her?

[PsyrenY]

Made Nightwing wrote...

And re your last point. The gun pulling is not confrontational. That's standing up and protecting the people you've sworn to defend from a man who's apparently gone off his rocker.

Sounds like a confrontation to me.

[Made Nightwing]

And yet he's clearly alive. Since humans generally don't come back to life, the logical thing to assume is that he survived and concealed his survival. Y'know, I'd assume that if Shepard was actually in love with her (if non-romanced, let's assume they had a reasonable bond) he'd have something a lot better to say than 'It's been too long'. Look at the Garrus and Liara meetings. There's actually emotion in his voice. Garrus also says 'Hey, I can't really question your judgement', which is about the most ridiculous reason I've ever heard.

No, you wouldn't have, and neither would I. It would have been deceitful and downright traitorous. If Shepard was untrustworthy, I'd rather she just state it.

Right. So the ends justified the means. That's not the least bit unethical.

Anderson wasn't relieved of duty, he was just not on duty. Udina doesn't say 'Anderson, you're relieved of duty', he says 'I didn't send for you'. Udina is a civillian with temporary power. He is easily overriden by men like Hackett. Mutiny is refusing to obey orders, treason is crossing sides and turning your coat for the enemy.

Yep, because Hackett has that privilege of being an Admiral. It means that no matter what his distaste for Cerberus is, he can still use Shepard for his own ends. He doesn't have to follow Shepard's orders, orders that might come from the Illusive Man.

Yeah, I doubt that very much. Joker flew the ship that destroyed Sovereign, Shepard took down Saren. Her family name got overlooked because she showed her dedication and loyalty. At the very least she would have spent the same amount of time in the brig as Shepard and Joker. In addition to that, she wouldn't have had access to the Normandy like Joker, or been present at the hearing like Shepard. She would have still been in her cell when the Reapers burned the place to the ground. Either way, she would have been dead.

Ah, and Project Overlord? Where you can make a decision to ruin the life of an innocent man? Shepard's as only as ethical as you make him, the fact that Chakwas ignores it even if you're an anti-alien bastard is just another nail in the coffin. Shepard tars himself with the same brush with every handful of Cerberus credits he takes. Those same credits sent biotic kids to unsupervised death camps and paid for the set up for a platoon of Alliance Marines to be devoured on Akuze.

Distrusting someone because they've been gone for a while and show up working for mass murderers makes perfect sense to me.

You advocated that Anderson should have told Ash to shut up and leave the thinking to him. Hence, why I pointed out that blindly following orders has only ever lead to tragedy.

Yes, and the coup is where she gets to see whether or not it's all just been a big con-job from the start. And again, the least bit of effort is required to achieve the necessary trust level. The rest is just talk. I doubt she was even going to shoot. If she was, it would have been when Shepard stepped forward again. Sub-conciously, she just didn't have it in her to pull hte trigger.

I consider apologising more than twice to be the mark of a bootlicker. But then, we're different people.

If you've actually done what you're supposed to do, it's a momentary decision for her. She keeps her gun up for less than ten seconds. Shepard also has the option to keep his gun raised. Again, Cerberus long cons? History is filled with enough clever double agents. Considering Shepard can order an assassination on a turian general just to secure war aid...well, let's just say that Shepard is more than capable of 'dastardly acts'.

[Made Nightwing]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

And re your last point. The gun pulling is not confrontational. That's standing up and protecting the people you've sworn to defend from a man who's apparently gone off his rocker.

Sounds like a confrontation to me.

Having a confrontation and being confrontational are two different things. Dictionary definition for 'confrontational' is 'tending towards, seeking out confrontation'. Kaidan doesn't seek out confrontation at all. Even the ME1 scene with him and Liara is more of him trying to get a misunderstanding clarified than a confrontation.

[Archontor]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

And re your last point. The gun pulling is not confrontational. That's standing up and protecting the people you've sworn to defend from a man who's apparently gone off his rocker.

Sounds like a confrontation to me.

Having a confrontation and being confrontational are two different things. Dictionary definition for 'confrontational' is 'tending towards, seeking out confrontation'. Kaidan doesn't seek out confrontation at all. Even the ME1 scene with him and Liara is more of him trying to get a misunderstanding clarified than a confrontation.

 

That's why I like Kaidan, he's not some alpha-male jarhead he's far more content to talk a problem out and explain his actions. You know like a good Spectre would.

[DRTJR]

You know timeline wise Cerberus was still part of the Alinence durning the whole Akuze thing, and Jack's childhood.

[pseudonymic]

i don't like javik or wrex. their superiority complex annoys me.

[PsyrenY]

1) Even if she assumes you didn't actually die, she still saw the Normandy blow up with you on board. So some period of convalescence/reconstruction would still be reasonable for anyone who isn't Wolverine. And again, Shepard explicitly told her this, so it again goes out of assumptions and into trust, of which she clearly has less than the other main characters for no other reason than to be difficult.
2) Garrus' first time striking it big on his own resulted in a heaping helping of guilt for him, so his statement made perfect sense to me.
3) Traitorous, to keep the potential enemy in the dark while you checked in with your superiors? You've got funny ideas of treason, though I knew that when you didn't consider mutiny to be treason.
4) No less ethical than running around like irresponsible headless chickens while the Collectors reap at random.
5) Anderson wasn't relieved of duty, true - he had no duty to be relieved from. He was completely cut out of the loop when they forced him to give the Normandy to you. So, academic difference.
6) Hackett "following Shepard's orders" (what kind of nonsense is that?) was never the point. The point is that he trusted you enough to carry out HIS orders, and not, say, get TIM to send him false reports while Cerberus reaped all the lovely intel from his orders.
7) Again, she got promoted after ME1. She specifically tells you in ME1 that her rank was lower than her qualifications indicated due to her family history. So the Alliance has clearly finally gotten over that and your concerns are invalid.
8) Those same credits allowed you to upgrade your ship/guns/powers, keep your squadmates alive and save her life (along with your crew). The world ain't black and white.
9) Again, Shepard isn't working for them, they're working for him. If Hackett, Anderson, Chakwas etc. can trust Shep, Ash has no excuse.
10) I advocated Anderson doing that because her conclusions are irrational. "I trust you and admit you're the same person, with even the same friends willing to follow you, but you must be with Cerberus! With no control over the situation and a certainty of being corrupted! Unclean! Unclean!"
11) Least bit of effort? You have to trek down to her hospital bed in the middle of a war whenever she asks (again, no apology for doing so), then stand there with your gun lowered while she has hers raised the whole time, convince her she's wrong about you AGAIN (no apology here either), and she'll only join up with you if you properly rubbed her tummy about the Spectre commendation. Yeah, real respectable.
12) I consider doing things more than twice that need apologizing, and not doing so to, to be the mark of an ****. But then, we're different people.
13) No, Shepard does not have that option. The Paragon interrupt is to lower your companions' guns - yours goes down automatically.


Look. it's obvious we won't convince each other - so you keep the redundant solider alive in your playthroughs, and I'll continue to be thankful that Bioware gave me an alternative to Calamity Jane.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 30 mai 2012 - 02:55 .

[PsyrenY]

Archontor wrote...

That's why I like Kaidan, he's not some alpha-male jarhead he's far more content to talk a problem out and explain his actions. You know like a good Spectre would.

Bingo

[Hegario]

Javik and Wrex are douchebags but they use their powers of douchiness for good while Ashley with her racism + religious attitude uses her powers for evil.

/joke

Actually I just think it's that Ashley isn't really a very endearing character. Serious and no humor at all while at the same time exhibiting qualities that a lot of people don't like to see in themselves.

[Lyrebon]

F00lishG wrote...

 People don't like real hard women with an opinion that differs from them. That sums up any hatred for Ashley.

Revy (Black Lagoon) - dislikes truth other than her own; will put a bullet behind your teeth for calling her names; is cynical; hates people and thinks they're trash who are no better alive than dead and as such finds it hard to trust.

And yet I love her. She's a remarkable character and a strong female lead.

Stop being what your name insists.