771 réponses à ce sujet

[MACharlie1]

Lyrebon wrote...

F00lishG wrote...

 People don't like real hard women with an opinion that differs from them. That sums up any hatred for Ashley.

Revy (Black Lagoon) - dislikes truth other than her own; will put a bullet behind your teeth for calling her names; is cynical; hates people and thinks they're trash who are no better alive than dead and as such finds it hard to trust.

And yet I love her. She's a remarkable character and a strong female lead.

Stop being what your name insists.

I think it's probably because charactes like (I guess) Revy (I've never heard of this) and Morrigan and Kreia are so extreme in their viewpoints that it's an admirable trait and you just love them for being that different from the rest.

Ashley has it different - she's not that extreme in any of her beliefs. She's somewhere in between in regards to them. She isn't a Cerberus/Terra Firma but she also isn't Kelly Chambers-alien hugs and kisses. She's too ordinary for people. Added to the fact that she has disagreement with players makes it a wishy-washy match. What should have been said is that people don't like everyday ordinary women with an opinion that differs from their own. 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 30 mai 2012 - 03:49 .

[NaughtyRectum]

I don't think Wrex is actively racist. Bitter as hell, yeah, but he doesn't come off as racist to me.

[Elite Midget]

It's because she's human, that's the only reason. If she was an alien no one would have cared that she said she doesn't trust other species since you know, they sorta attacked them years ago and her grandfather was disgraced because of said aliens.

Wrex, Javik, and Tali were a pure racists compared to Ashley who got over her fear of aliens fast and was smart not to trust all aliens until tey proved their worth. Even after all that's said and done Wrex and Javik don't really change their racist tendencies but at least Tali does if you push her to.

Modifié par Elite Midget, 30 mai 2012 - 04:11 .

[DirtySHISN0]

^ her grandfather was disgraced by the alliance for surrendering, not the turians. The only reason that surrender is significant is because it was the first ever alliance defeat - would have been hailed a hero had he died trying.

She's all about the alliance though, which clearly isn't thought out.

Going out on a limb here, but i would suggest people don't dislike Ashley because she is human. They dislike her because she is a boring human. Ashley fans suggest she is the most realistic character, which on the flipside means she has all the boring problems that come with realism.


H̶a̶t̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶g̶o̶n̶n̶a̶ ̶h̶a̶t̶e̶   lovers/haters gonna be belligerent.



Also Xenophobic seems a more appropriate term.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 30 mai 2012 - 05:28 .

[ericjdev]

The reasons I hate Ashley are myriad, her racism is just the icing on the cake. I wanted to go back and let her survive Virmire just so I could shoot her.

[RiptideX1090]

Ashley is my least favorite character in all three games. In ME3, she even beats out Miranda for the character I dislike the most, and it is not because of her racism. Tali is racist. Garrus is racist. As pointed out before me, Javik and Wrex are both racist. That's not the issue.

It's that Ashley has no purpose. None whatsoever. If you took Ashley out of the entire series, starting at Eden Prime, would anything at all have changed? No. She offered almost no exposition that was not handled by Cole or Dr. Warren, and beyond that... does nothing. Kaiden was at least necessary because he's the guy you start the series off with, acting as 'that guy' who grounds the fantastic setting with a bit of normalcy, and they try to do this with Ash, but with Kaiden already there, it's redundant. I mean, you never need to take her after Eden Prime, and only ever really have to hear from her on Virmire where you can remove her from the rest of the series, which doesn't matter because even if you do, she's replaced by Kaiden. They are interchangeable.

Why is this important? Because if you weigh Kaiden and Ashley, which one are most people going to like more? The guy who is level headed about things, for the most part when the plot doesn't require him to be stupid, or the unfunny, likely insecure **** who is constantly rubbing in how much she doesn't trust aliens? For Christ's sake, all of the memorable characters in this series are aliens! And the biggest problem is it doesn't feel like she grows out of it, either. Mass Effect 2? Still doesn't like aliens. Mass Effect 3? Still doesn't like aliens. Ashley is stagnant, and while Kaiden doesn't change a whole lot either, I feel more of a connection with him because he's just a guy doing his thing. He doesn't go around ****ing everyone out because they aren't human and then turns around to tell me about how much he loves poetry in some vain attempt to make himself deeper than he really is. Ashley feels like she does not develop as a character in any way other than her hair length and breast size. And while Miranda might wear swimwear into battle, she does not do it while ****ing someone else out for doing the same.

And that's Ash's biggest problem. She tries to be all these things that she's not. She's not some deep poet. She's not a tough and tumble marine (at least not anymore), she's not a competent Spectre (at least Kaiden has the biotics going for him which makes it a little more believable) or even a competent soldier, and she is sure as **** no Bruce Campbell. Give me Kaiden any day, someone who can actually have some squad dialogue without being an unfunny douche to everyone, who actually feels like he has a place on my ship, and who has never been pushed to be anything more than he is, a simple marine with space magic just doing his job.

[HBC Dresden]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

F00lishG wrote...

 People don't like real hard women with an opinion that differs from them. That sums up any hatred for Ashley.

Revy (Black Lagoon) - dislikes truth other than her own; will put a bullet behind your teeth for calling her names; is cynical; hates people and thinks they're trash who are no better alive than dead and as such finds it hard to trust.

And yet I love her. She's a remarkable character and a strong female lead.

Stop being what your name insists.

I think it's probably because charactes like (I guess) Revy (I've never heard of this) and Morrigan and Kreia are so extreme in their viewpoints that it's an admirable trait and you just love them for being that different from the rest.

Ashley has it different - she's not that extreme in any of her beliefs. She's somewhere in between in regards to them. She isn't a Cerberus/Terra Firma but she also isn't Kelly Chambers-alien hugs and kisses. She's too ordinary for people. Added to the fact that she has disagreement with players makes it a wishy-washy match. What should have been said is that people don't like everyday ordinary women with an opinion that differs from their own. 

Not me. I don't like doing anything remotely decent and have "Morrigan disapproves." The rest of your comment I totally agree with though

[Lyrebon]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Lyrebon wrote...

F00lishG wrote...

 People don't like real hard women with an opinion that differs from them. That sums up any hatred for Ashley.

Revy (Black Lagoon) - dislikes truth other than her own; will put a bullet behind your teeth for calling her names; is cynical; hates people and thinks they're trash who are no better alive than dead and as such finds it hard to trust.

And yet I love her. She's a remarkable character and a strong female lead.

Stop being what your name insists.

I think it's probably because charactes like (I guess) Revy (I've never heard of this) and Morrigan and Kreia are so extreme in their viewpoints that it's an admirable trait and you just love them for being that different from the rest.

Ashley has it different - she's not that extreme in any of her beliefs. She's somewhere in between in regards to them. She isn't a Cerberus/Terra Firma but she also isn't Kelly Chambers-alien hugs and kisses. She's too ordinary for people. Added to the fact that she has disagreement with players makes it a wishy-washy match. What should have been said is that people don't like everyday ordinary women with an opinion that differs from their own. 

I do think men prefer ordinary gals to ones who will shove a custom-made beretta M-92 in their face and be willing to pull the trigger 

I don't like Ashley because she just can't let things go and is too narrow-minded or too unwilling to look at the bigger picture (ie. the truth). She wraps herself up in her own delusions and is overly-prejudice. The only rational thought running through her mind is whether to put a bullet in something; while it makes her a good soldier, it's her only positive trait and doesn't make her a good person.

[MegaBadExample]

ticklefist wrote...

Ashley isn't racist. She doesn't feel other species are incapable or worse beings. If anything, and I'm not putting this in stone, she's only slightly phobic. A natural fear/caution when it comes to the unknown. Doesn't trust freely but as the game showed numerous times her trust can be earned.

Still obnoxious as hell tho.

 She's hardly all that obnoxious if you get to know her personally. The Citadel scenes with her basically show you this - when she's not worried about being capped in the back, or some huge explosion going off, or troopers running around the next corner at her - she's a good solid person, who cares about her family and just wants to do right.

She's cautious and stand-offish on a professional level. Cerberus is full of deniable assets and indoctrinated forces, and what does Ashley really know about Shepard if you didn't take the time to visit her when she's wounded and reassure her? … Yeah, exactly. Shepard’s fault for not filling her in, I guess. But no one sees that.

Ashley takes precautious all the time to prevent the worst. Alenko's more likely to die from a shot in the back than Ashley. She's had these instincts drilled into her because of her military life-style. Being a marine is what she knows.

[MegaBadExample]

ericjdev wrote...

The reasons I hate Ashley are myriad, her racism is just the icing on the cake. I wanted to go back and let her survive Virmire just so I could shoot her.

Typical.

Ashley's not the type of character that'll make you do anything for her, or the type to make you go: "Awh. She's so cute and awkward!" like Tali - Ashley is supposed to make you think twice, keep you grounded and challenge you. But I see she failed in that department for many Mass Effect fans as most of them are too busy gushing over Tali anyway. I don't understand why most of them call her a: “Space N*zi” or “Racist” it's completely incorrect and vile.
 
Guess they don’t know any better.

Ashley's not racist. However, Tali certainly WAS, even her writers admitted it. But most of ya'll don’t throw around that title for her. Tali got over it in ME3 though - it's called character development apparently.

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 30 mai 2012 - 07:10 .

[Archereon]

It's a double standard, for the same reason people will overlook racist comments by minorities towards majorities but absolutely freak out if the same thing happens in reverse.

That and Ashley's not a particularly interesting character. BioWare just can't seem to write compelling humans in Mass Effect, besides maybe pre ME3 TIM.

Plus, IRL, taking the Imperium of Man's position on aliens (kill them unless they aren't capable of being a threat/if there's a good reason not to) is a perfectly valid stance, seeing as any species capable of surviving on the interstellar scale will be ruthless, highly intelligent, and probably just as xenophobic as you are. This all derives from the one aspect of intelligent life we can assume to be universal, which is instict for self preservation and the preservation of the species, and the assumption that aliens will not be colorful, universally bald humans though and that there won't be any FTL, so yeah, Ashley's racism belongs in a different genre (Hard Sci Fi).

Modifié par Archereon, 30 mai 2012 - 07:22 .

[CrazyBirdman]

I "hate" (do not care for) Ashley because she is annoying with all her completly uniteresting family issues that have no place for me in an full galactic war.
Other characters also have family issues but those feel more meaningful. Her being xenophobic is not the prime reason, it was always fun to debate with her and show how wrong she is.
Not having played the DLC I cannot speak for Javik but in Wrex defense I have to say that he generally respects people regardless of species who show results. He is towards other krogans as offensive as against most others. He also develops and you see how he learns to respect others more and more.
Additionally he really has reasons to hate other species and mistrust them given how much bad the krogan had to endure because of them. Ashley on the other hand just cannot justify her prejudices and seems because of that just stupid.

Modifié par CrazyBirdman, 30 mai 2012 - 07:18 .

[Darth Asriel]

Wrex isn't racist. His species was made infertile by 2 very specific groups. He hates those groups. He has never shown a racist attitude toward humans or drells. His attitude toward Turians and Salarians are somewhat justified.

Javik as someone pointed out is simply reacting to a 50,000 year time jump. The dogs and cats of his time are ruling the galaxy. It was just yesterday for him that Salarians ate flies, Asari were primitives just learning to farm, and humans were way behind them. His attitude is realistic.

[lil yonce]

Interesting insight into Ashley non-fans: http://cor7ana.tumbl...astry-so-i-was#

[Myrmedus]

Both Wrex and Javik come around in the end and mellow out, and in the case of Wrex he doesn't hate every single race other than his own.

Ashley, however, is still as racist as ever even after 3 instalments.

In addition, both Wrex and Javik have far reaching reasons behind their apparent racism: Wrex's attitude is caused by what has been done to his entire people and Javik's attitude through a sense of necessity for survival. Ashley? People were mean to her grandaddy.

Her entire reasoning is narrow and selfish, and she tries to cover it up with reasoning that is more far reaching (like her analogy of setting a dog on a bear). Wrex and Javik have reasoning not only borne from emotional/personal issues but also on a racial scale with some genuine logic (especially in Javik's case, since they likely would have been wiped out by the machine before the Reapers came if they hadn't united all peoples in their cycle under the Prothean banner).

Modifié par Myrmedus, 30 mai 2012 - 09:00 .

[Allstar27]

Myrmedus wrote...

Both Wrex and Javik come around in the end and mellow out, and in the case of Wrex he doesn't hate every single race other than his own.

Ashley, however, is still as racist as ever even after 3 instalments.

So what exacually has she said that is deemed to incline that she is a racist during ME2 and ME3? 

[Archontor]

Allstar27 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Both Wrex and Javik come around in the end and mellow out, and in the case of Wrex he doesn't hate every single race other than his own.

Ashley, however, is still as racist as ever even after 3 instalments.

So what exacually has she said that is deemed to incline that she is a racist during ME2 and ME3? 

A better question is, what has she said to disprove her racism, there's no reason to assume change.

[Superstarsage]

Unfortunately the reason I disliked Ashley (and the VS in general) lies mainly in ME2, and then ME3 (haven't gone through a kaiden playthrough yet).

As one mister Vakarian said "Damn it, Williams. you're so focused on Cerberus that you're ignoring the real threat!"

Modifié par Superstarsage, 30 mai 2012 - 09:35 .

[akenn312]

Allstar27 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Both Wrex and Javik come around in the end and mellow out, and in the case of Wrex he doesn't hate every single race other than his own.

Ashley, however, is still as racist as ever even after 3 instalments.

So what exacually has she said that is deemed to incline that she is a racist during ME2 and ME3? 

Exactly, what statement in ME 3 or ME 2 did she make that is flat out racist? Ashley left alien mistrust back in Mass Effect that's old news. Do you really think Bioware would give a sexy makeover and model toys after a character they considered racist? C'mon everyone. Ashley was mistrusting and said some rude stuff in the first game but everybody in the Alliance mistrusted aliens especially the Turians, they had been to war with them for years. I also hate to break it to you but that's the military. Soldiers are rude, raw and always say inappropriate stuff. James is a neanderthal and so is Wrex.  Ash is tame by military standards. That makes sense. Ash was just being the regular Alliance Grunt at the time. She probably has to overcompensate too because she is a woman in the military.

I think some of you just didn't like her character because she said out loud and was honest about what the Alliance mindset was at the time of Mass Effect. They weren't Cerberus, but humans were not fans of aliens. Every character in the game mistrusted each other with good reason. They were all mistrustful bigots.

I also think some of you are not doing everything you can to convo with Ash, or you let her die on Vermire without getting to know the backstory well enough only taking her for face value. Your commenting without knowing everything about her story or motivation. She has more mistrust for Shep & Cerberus than any alien. I think she trusts Liara, Tali, Garrus and Wrex more than Shepard in ME 3. That is obvious even if she was knocked out of a lot of the story.

[MegaBadExample]

Archontor wrote...

Allstar27 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

Both Wrex and Javik come around in the end and mellow out, and in the case of Wrex he doesn't hate every single race other than his own.

Ashley, however, is still as racist as ever even after 3 instalments.

So what exacually has she said that is deemed to incline that she is a racist during ME2 and ME3? 

A better question is, what has she said to disprove her racism, there's no reason to assume change.

The fact that all the alien crew members in ME3 seem to be fond of her?
Defends the council?
Cares about Liara? Saved Liara. Comforts Liara.
Cries over Tali's death if she dies?

Ashley might be a hundred other things, but she's not racist. Get over it.

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 30 mai 2012 - 09:50 .

[Applepie_Svk]

It´s not about racism - I just hate her ... LoL

Let me explain:

ME1: I don´t like that forced invasion on my deck... Why should I care about some soldier which was on Eden Prime ? I don´t care - that geth drone could kill her or that geths could impale her on Dragon teeth - I just don´t care.

Ashley was in ME1 racist, just because her family fight in first contact war - If you remember than you know that was she who always say that NEVER TRUST THE ALIENS or WHY ARE THEY ON THIS SHIP or SWEET Wrex´s death after what that **** shoot him to back (Virmire), for me both VS are unatractive characters - mostly humans characters are borring Jacob, Kaidan and Ashley they are so boring that I can´t even force myself to speak with them in ME1,2,3 ...

If you pick to save Ashley she should put more trust in you in ME2, yes it was understandable that she was angry - but what wasn´t that she was so blind - in that moment were the Collectors the enemy and not Cerberus. She is blaming you from treachery ... But what did Aliance to help colonists ?
Even her presence on Horizon was just to spy you ... in that moment it means that even Aliance is blind to real threat and they rather want to know what´s with the Sheppard than that colonist.

Ashley is person which you saved back on Virmire and you were the one who was picking from two - let´s say friends (in RL I can´t imagine such a two morons as friends LoL), so even after everything what did you for her and for Aliance (if you picked to support in ME2 more Aliance than Cerberus - I mean side missions like intel about Cerb, refusing save the base etc etc) She still put you to questioning.
She has no right to judge the Sheppard after what she turn on me with back, in ME3 she was still ****y and to the end of Mars mission I could heard about my treason maybe 3-4 times, and until the Citadel´s mision next 2-3 times. It´s like she has nothing more to do, than blame me with working with Cerberus.
For me is Ashley person without her own opinion, she believ in god because of her family, she hates aliens because of her family, she put humanity because of her family. 
Most dumbest thing was the fact like she has no chance to see Tali or Liara since end of ME1 and not when she is back on Normady she is saying YEA WE ARE LIKE SIS... or after Citadel´s mision - she came back and like nothing just happened: YEA MAY I COME IN ? srsly she should appologize for every question which she did since ME1...
If am not mistaken that it was her who was saying WE SHOULDN´t ALLOW TO ALIENS WORK FREELY...

I think it would be much more fitting if she turned on Aliance and start working for Cerberus in ME3, her personality is heading right that way - since I spoke with her first time in ME1.


Her character as a human, racist, soldier is more fitting to Cerberus ranks than to ranks of Aliance - just a military force representing humanity but they are inactive in most of the game as some kind of representation - they did nothing for saving Colonist in ME2.
Aliance - even doesn´t care about fallen from Normandy SR1 wreck after what blew out by Collectors and all put on Geths or clarification if Sheppard is dead.
And after two years when Sheppard came back they are like a : What the **** ? ... Yes he is traitor ...

After what you blew Bahak system, yes it was normal that you will be in custody but again - instead of true prepares and digging for anything useful they rather put you to custody and start question for a half year ... GG ALIANCE

Cerberus - pro-human, terrorist organization which put humanity at first. - even if it was from selfish reasons they actualy did something, even more they bring you back from death.
Yes they actualy cared for Sheppard because they know his importance, in ME2 they were trying to look more human- in some of the parts it´s even possible that they wasn´t so wicked but in the end TIM show his true face.

Modifié par Applepie_Svk, 30 mai 2012 - 10:02 .

[Applepie_Svk]

MegaBadExample wrote...



The fact that all the alien crew members in ME3 seem to be fond of her?
Defends the council?
Cares about Liara? Saved Liara. Comforts Liara.
Cries over Tali's death if she dies?

Ashley might be a hundred other things, but she's not racist. Get over it.

Ashley´s personality was turned about 180 degrees, in ME1 she was racist, always blaming aliens ... since SR1 blew to hell she has no chance to meet with crew becase everyone goes own way, and in the ME3 she is surpisly BIG SISTER AND WE ARE ALL FRIENDZ ... OMFG rly OMFG 

[Arturia Pendragon]

I never saw Ashley as a speciesist, just a xenophobe. There is a difference.

Wrex is Wrex, Javik is Javik. They're both a product of their cultures.

Modifié par Arturia Pendragon, 30 mai 2012 - 10:10 .

[MegaBadExample]

@Applepie

Forced? Nearly every crew member is forced in some way. Are you indifferent to them?

Ashley asks TWO questions on mars, TWO questions after that long without contact. They are not accusations either.

Ashley only shoots Wrex because he was about to blow her Commander's head off. Wrex didn't trust Shepard nor would he stand-down in that situation. So don't blame Ashley for your crappy leadership skills. Ashley did her duty. Shepard even says to Ashley before confronting Wrex: "Be ready... Just in case." That's an order, and she's got to obey.

I have to laugh at these folks coming in and saying "YOU" like you are Commander Shepard. That's the problem; Shepard is your avatar and you take it personal when he gets called out. Anybody who questions him/or sides against him is wrong, right? Every person in this world has the right to judge you - everybody judges. Thats exactly what you're doing to Ashley right now.

Your post in completely inaccurate... it's unreal. How can you be so ignorant about this issue? Oh, yeah - maybe if you actually paid attention to what she was saying. She doesn't hate aliens, nor does she blame them, listen - she blames the Alliance for what happened to her grandfather. Not the aliens. She doesn't trust Wrex and Garrus because they are strangers off the street. Hell, Wrex assualted Shepard before even coming aboard. Go back and play ME1, listen to what she says, and think for a second.

And yes, Shepard is a traitor in ME2. But Ashley still sends a damn apology to him.

Modifié par MegaBadExample, 30 mai 2012 - 10:14 .