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[Menalaos1971]

How is Wrex racist? His entire race was used as a tool by the Turians and Salarians to save them from the Rachni, and then nearly brought to extinction by both races. Krogan hate toward both race is justified. Racism in general is based on stereotypes, and isn't justified hate.

Modifié par Menalaos1971, 24 mars 2012 - 04:06 .

[shadey]

Zardoc wrote...


Not like thats natural or something. She's still racist in ME1. Maybe she changed in ME3, didn't really pay much attention.

all she had was a distrust of aliens having full access to the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet.

considering the first ever contact humans had with aliens were the turians who attacked them because they considered them an inferior speices and caused the turian wars.

so could you blame people for not blinding trusting every alien when aliens would think of themselves first


people frothing at the mouth calling her a racist are probably the same type of people that calls anyone who doesn't want an open border racist

yahtzo wrote...



I also have a feeling her belief in God made some people dislike her whether they want to admit it or not.

oh it did, I saw plenty of comments over the years where people specifically mentioned the fact she was religious as why they disliked her.

so much for tolerance aye

Modifié par shadey, 24 mars 2012 - 04:11 .

[yahtzo]

OverdrivenI wrote...

 

Complistic wrote...

Ashley is painfully realistic. Most hate for her can be reduced to that simple fact.

This is actually the truest statement on this thread I think.

She's comes across as more 'real' than any of the other characters.

Seriously.  Everyone else is all "LA LA LA I love aliens LA LA LA" when Ashley just seems so much more real.
And despite her dislike for aliens she is still willing to work with them, be in a squad with them and have their back on the battlefield.

I also have a feeling her belief in God made some people dislike her whether they want to admit it or not.

[Allison_Lightning]

I never hated Williams- I save Kaidan every time but it hurts to sacrifice her. I'm more interested in finishing up my DLC collection for the second game than get Javik (and I might be in the minority here but I didn't want to see a living Prothean) and Wrex is awesome. I can't speak for other people though, and the only thing that bothered me about Ashley Williams was the poetry.

[Aiyie]

Because Wrex and Javik are aliens...

Ashley is human, and because of that she's supposed to be the good guy.

Cultural/racial bias (and hypocrisy) at its finest.

Personally, I never got the racist thing.  It wasn't like she went all TIM on us and wanted to have all aliens in the galactic cotton-fields.

Always kinda liked her character actually, felt more real to me.  Real people have opinions, some of which I don't agree with... as opposed to Kaiden, who always felt like he was too fake, like he was designed from the outset to be as inoffensive as possible.

[OverdrivenI]

Menalaos1971 wrote...

How is Wrex racist? His entire race was used as a tool by the Turians and Salarians to save them from the Rachni, and then nearly brought to extinction by both races. Krogan hate toward both race is justified. Racism in general is based on stereotypes, and isn't justified hate.

Hate towards other races generally takes the form of stereotypes ect. No outright hate towards an ENTIRE race is justified. Arguing as such is idiotic. Particularly as it occured 300 years before. Of course they all have varying life lengths but it comes down to a slave trade/British empire ideal. You can hate the British empire for what they did, but you can't hate the entire British race for something that occurred 300 years before, no matter what they did to your people.

Modifié par OverdrivenI, 24 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[Fl1xx]

When Javik was living pre-wake up, all of the current advanced species were bottom-dwellers. I assume that it's going to take longer than a few days (Weeks? Months? How long does the game span?) to get past those memories.
Wrex is... Wrex. He can get away with that stuff because he's likable.
Ashley is racist and incredibly boring.

Kaidan is Carth. I can't dislike him.

[Aimi]

Menalaos1971 wrote...

How is Wrex racist? His entire race was used as a tool by the Turians and Salarians to save them from the Rachni, and then nearly brought to extinction by both races. Krogan hate toward both race is justified. Racism in general is based on stereotypes, and isn't justified hate.

That's like saying "Chinese hate towards the Japanese is justified", because, you know, all modern-day Japanese were responsible for the invasions, Unit 731, the Rape of Nanjing, the destruction of Wuhan, comfort women, and all the rest, and because all modern-day Chinese had all of that stuff done to each one of them individually. It's still xenophobic, it's still prejudiced, and it's still wrong.

[Zardoc]

shadey wrote...

Zardoc wrote...


Not like thats natural or something. She's still racist in ME1. Maybe she changed in ME3, didn't really pay much attention.

all she had was a distrust of aliens having full access to the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet.

considering the first ever contact humans had with aliens were the turians who attacked them because they considered them an inferior speices and caused the turian wars.

so could you blame people for not blinding trusting every alien when aliens would think of themselves first


people frothing at the mouth calling her a racist are probably the same type of people that calls anyone who doesn't want an open border racist

The most advanced ship in the Alliance fleet...which was co-created with aliens...the same aliens that humanity fought with not 30 years ago.
I am NOT blaming her for being cautious with aliens. I just hate her for being blatantly racist at times (among other things)

daqs wrote...

That's like saying "Chinese hate towards the Japanese is justified", because, you know, all modern-day Japanesewere responsible for the invasions, Unit 731, the Rape of Nanjing, the destruction of Wuhan, comfort women, and all the rest, and because all modern-day Chinese had all of that stuff done to each one of them individually. It's still xenophobic, it's still prejudiced, and it's still wrong.

 

Wrex' entire species was sterilized by the turians and salarians and is slowly but steadily dying out and neither turians nor salarians ever cared about what they did to the krogan. And Wrex hates his own people just as much as turians and salarians for being stuck in the old ways. He has valid reasons to dislike those races and is most certainly not wrong to do so.

Modifié par Zardoc, 24 mars 2012 - 04:17 .

[humes spork]

Aiyie wrote...

Always kinda liked her character actually, felt more real to me.  Real people have opinions, some of which I don't agree with... as opposed to Kaiden, who always felt like he was too fake, like he was designed from the outset to be as inoffensive as possible.

Kaiden is more experienced and jaded than Ashley, and has a much more individualist outlook.

[Skyblade012]

Zardoc wrote...

shadey wrote...

Zardoc wrote...


Not like thats natural or something. She's still racist in ME1. Maybe she changed in ME3, didn't really pay much attention.

all she had was a distrust of aliens having full access to the most advanced ship in the alliance fleet.

considering the first ever contact humans had with aliens were the turians who attacked them because they considered them an inferior speices and caused the turian wars.

so could you blame people for not blinding trusting every alien when aliens would think of themselves first


people frothing at the mouth calling her a racist are probably the same type of people that calls anyone who doesn't want an open border racist

The most advanced ship in the Alliance fleet...which was co-created with aliens...the same aliens that humanity fought with not 30 years ago.
I am NOT blaming her for being cautious with aliens. I just hate her for being blatantly racist at times (among other things)

Really, I can only remember one time she was blatantly racist, and that was due to the horribly cheap writing on Horizon.

[Space Magic]

Ashley had a good mix of positive and negative traits, but she never struck me as more "real" than the other characters.

[OverdrivenI]

Skyblade012 wrote...

Really, I can only remember one time she was blatantly racist, and that was due to the horribly cheap writing on Horizon.

In ME1 as soon as you get Aliens on the Normandy she starts getting angsty about how they can't be trusted and it's an Alliance ship blah blah.

Personally I think she's a realistic representation of how most of humanity would act in such a situation.

[shadey]

Zardoc wrote...



The most advanced ship in the Alliance fleet...which was co-created with aliens...the same aliens that humanity fought with not 30 years ago.
I am NOT blaming her for being cautious with aliens. I just hate her for being blatantly racist at times (among other things)

and none of those aliens that helped built it were on that ship were they, did garrus help build it, did wrex, did tali, did liara, they were all unknowns just brought aboard.


would a military ship nowdays let civilians freely roam around it's decks

of course not

Modifié par shadey, 24 mars 2012 - 04:17 .

[omgBAMF]

yahtzo wrote...
I also have a feeling her belief in God made some people dislike her whether they want to admit it or not.

I'll openly admit to this.  I'm a stark atheist, and I couldn't stand it when she asked me if I believed in a higher power.  Her reply wasn't any better either. "But.. but... but... how can you look around you and say this all wasn't created?" (paraphrasing)

[FoxShadowblade]

Because yes, it is okay to be a bigot if you are funny about it.

[Menalaos1971]

daqs wrote...

Menalaos1971 wrote...

How is Wrex racist? His entire race was used as a tool by the Turians and Salarians to save them from the Rachni, and then nearly brought to extinction by both races. Krogan hate toward both race is justified. Racism in general is based on stereotypes, and isn't justified hate.

That's like saying "Chinese hate towards the Japanese is justified", because, you know, all modern-day Japanese were responsible for the invasions, Unit 731, the Rape of Nanjing, the destruction of Wuhan, comfort women, and all the rest, and because all modern-day Chinese had all of that stuff done to each one of them individually. It's still xenophobic, it's still prejudiced, and it's still wrong.

One difference.  The Genophage still exists, and those that created it still ensure its continued effectiveness.  Both the Salarians and the Turians.  So, using your example, its like the Japanese today are still taking comfort women and occasionally wiping out a whole city or two decades after the war...  Yes, Krogan hate is still justified.

[Jtdrainz]

I don't remember wrex nailing any other race short of just him being a krogan, I can't speak on javik I didnt get the dlc thank god.

[Skyblade012]

OverdrivenI wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

Really, I can only remember one time she was blatantly racist, and that was due to the horribly cheap writing on Horizon.

In ME1 as soon as you get Aliens on the Normandy she starts getting angsty about how they can't be trusted and it's an Alliance ship blah blah.

Personally I think she's a realistic representation of how most of humanity would act in such a situation.

Not racist behaviour.  She wasn't judging them that way because of their race, but rather due to her experience with people and societies in general, and how any would react.  Solid sociology is not racism.  She didn't hate aliens, didn't even dislike them (Pressly was worse on that score).  She just knew that, if things got out of hand, a group would abandon outsiders before harming their own.  And you see it over and over again throughout the series.  It doesn't matter if its an organization, a species, an alliance, or even just a crew.  You protect your own before you protect outsiders.

And she was 100% accurate.

[humes spork]

Fl1xx wrote...

When Javik was living pre-wake up, all of the current advanced species were bottom-dwellers. I assume that it's going to take longer than a few days (Weeks? Months? How long does the game span?) to get past those memories.

The impression I got is Javik acclimated rather quickly, and he just says the stuff he does to force the current cycles' species to take a good, hard look at themselves. He's a gadfly, not a racist per se.

[Zardoc]

shadey wrote...

Zardoc wrote...



The most advanced ship in the Alliance fleet...which was co-created with aliens...the same aliens that humanity fought with not 30 years ago.
I am NOT blaming her for being cautious with aliens. I just hate her for being blatantly racist at times (among other things)

and none of those aliens that helped built it were on that ship were they, did garrus help build it, did wrex, did tali, did liara, they were all unknowns just brought aboard.


would a military ship nowdays let civilians freely roam around it's decks

of course not

Only none of the people you recruit are civilians, except for Liara. You had a grand total of 4 aliens aboard, all specialists you needed, only one of them tied to a big government. But sure, lets distrust them, not like we need them or anything.

Modifié par Zardoc, 24 mars 2012 - 04:21 .

[Aiyie]

humes spork wrote...

Aiyie wrote...

Always kinda liked her character actually, felt more real to me.  Real people have opinions, some of which I don't agree with... as opposed to Kaiden, who always felt like he was too fake, like he was designed from the outset to be as inoffensive as possible.

Kaiden is more experienced and jaded than Ashley, and has a much more individualist outlook.

maybe.  that could be one of the reasons i didn't mind Ashley either then.

I admire people who place their duty above personal feelings, Ashley fit that bill in my book.  Even if she was uncomfortable on the Normandy and working with so many aliens, she still did her job and did it well.

Since she wasn't all "kill-all-aliens! RAWR!", to me that sense of duty was enough to redeem her in the face of her other qualities.

[colateral]

I didnt dislike Ashley, I thought she was a well done character, I think what most people have an issue with is that she seems to be extremely static with regards to her perceptions on other species--there is no growth throughout the trilogy in this aspect; she doesnt like aliens in the first one and she still doesnt in the third.

[FoxShadowblade]

@Jtdrainz

You are missing out, the guy is hilarious.

[Zardoc]

Skyblade012 wrote...

OverdrivenI wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

Really, I can only remember one time she was blatantly racist, and that was due to the horribly cheap writing on Horizon.

In ME1 as soon as you get Aliens on the Normandy she starts getting angsty about how they can't be trusted and it's an Alliance ship blah blah.

Personally I think she's a realistic representation of how most of humanity would act in such a situation.

Not racist behaviour.  She wasn't judging them that way because of their race, but rather due to her experience with people and societies in general, and how any would react.  Solid sociology is not racism.  She didn't hate aliens, didn't even dislike them (Pressly was worse on that score).  She just knew that, if things got out of hand, a group would abandon outsiders before harming their own.  And you see it over and over again throughout the series.  It doesn't matter if its an organization, a species, an alliance, or even just a crew.  You protect your own before you protect outsiders.

And she was 100% accurate.

What about her comment on how she can't tell the difference between the aliens and the animals on the Citadel? Is that not racist? I believe it is.

Also, like I said, her political views are just one reason why I don't like her. Her calling me a traitor on Horizon and her constant complaining about my past with Cerberus in 3 are the main reasons I really can't stand her anymore.

Modifié par Zardoc, 24 mars 2012 - 04:23 .