771 réponses à ce sujet

[JBPBRC]

dublin omega 223 wrote...

Honestly with Ashley's racist views I'm very surprised she wasn't a member of Cerberus. Heck she'd be the perfect recruit.

Well, Udina DOES make her the perfect dupe...

[dublin omega 223]

JBPBRC wrote...

dublin omega 223 wrote...

Honestly with Ashley's racist views I'm very surprised she wasn't a member of Cerberus. Heck she'd be the perfect recruit.

Well, Udina DOES make her the perfect dupe...

I don't blame Udina for the coup attempt, he wanted to save Earth, I'd probably do it to in his place, though I wouldn't use Cerberus.

Modifié par dublin omega 223, 28 mai 2012 - 11:26 .

[Theta Thetis]

dublin omega 223 wrote...

Theta Thetis wrote...

dublin omega 223 wrote...

Honestly with Ashley's racist views I'm very surprised she wasn't a member of Cerberus. Heck she'd be the perfect recruit.

I'd doubt that she'd be in favor of those experiments Cereberus carried out. Also xenophobic does not equal racist.

racism is racism weather its xenophobia or not.

I'm Irish, I know that better then most as the Irish have been victims of racism for so long.

Racism is generally understood as either belief that different racial groups
are characterized by intrinsic characteristics or abilities and that
some such groups are therefore naturally superior to others, or as practices that discriminate against members of particular racial groups, for example by perpetuating unequal access to resources between groups.


Xenophobia is an unreasonable Fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

In short, racism and xenophobia are two very differnet things, I could be xenophobic, but not racist, and vice versa.

[Starspiral]

Ashley is not a racist, but she is a speciesist - these are two completely different things, go look them up.
I think the main problem with Ashley is that Bioware messed up on her character development - she should have been allowed to "grow" through ME1, would have been a much more interesting character imo.

[linkblade0]

Theta Thetis wrote...

Racism is generally understood as either belief that different racial groups
are characterized by intrinsic characteristics or abilities and that
some such groups are therefore naturally superior to others, or as practices that discriminate against members of particular racial groups, for example by perpetuating unequal access to resources between groups.


Xenophobia is an unreasonable Fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange.

In short, racism and xenophobia are two very differnet things, I could be xenophobic, but not racist, and vice versa.

Precisely, imagine.  Lets say I'm racist against... say americans.  That means I dislike people from america based of a generality.  Based off of a stereotypical reason.   It doesn't mean I fear them for being strangers or anything like that. 

(by the way I'm racist toward any 'race' just using it as an example)

[xxSanitysuxx]

Javik and Wrex have a dry sense of humour which everyone loves.

And frankly, Wrex has far more reason to hate Turians and Salarians than Ashley... Lets see, they not only fought a long, bitter war, but they decided to end it by screwing up the Krogans' reproductory system, making it virtually impossible for them to sustain a population, and essentially their actions led to the krogans being sent back to the stone age. Yeah, i can understand why he's bitter and resentful

Javik is different, but his situation is also kind of understandable. In his cycle protheans were pretty much the only people he interacted with. He's been frozen for 50000 years, his species is extinct, he's the last of his kind, and suddenly he's woken up by some strange organics who are now ruling the galaxy which was once their race. I cant agree with what he says about other races, but its mostly due to being the ultimate fish out of water, and him not understanding social protocol. He's kind of like Sheldon Cooper with a dark side.

Even Tali falls in the same boat due to her feelings against the Geth, but her race too has plenty of bitter history with the Geth. Similar situation to that of Wrex. And she has a smexy voice and ever smexier hips so u cant hate her

Ashley, on the other hand, has no real reason for her hatred, or being that wary of aliens. Humans had, what one big war with the turians, and that was resolved. Theres still bitterness but in general, the human-turian conflict doesnt come close to the animosity of the Geth-Quarian and Turian-Krogan-Salarian wars.

To sum it up, Ashley doesnt have Wrex's badassness, Javik's dry humour and cold, but sound logic, Tali's hips and general likeability, and not as sound a reason as those three to hate, or not trust other species. And she spouts poetry out of nowhere to sound smart and intellectual. She's a stupid little stuck up b****, thats all

[Theta Thetis]

xxSanitysuxx wrote...

Javik and Wrex have a dry sense of humour which everyone loves.

And frankly, Wrex has far more reason to hate Turians and Salarians than Ashley... Lets see, they not only fought a long, bitter war, but they decided to end it by screwing up the Krogans' reproductory system, making it virtually impossible for them to sustain a population, and essentially their actions led to the krogans being sent back to the stone age. Yeah, i can understand why he's bitter and resentful

Javik is different, but his situation is also kind of understandable. In his cycle protheans were pretty much the only people he interacted with. He's been frozen for 50000 years, his species is extinct, he's the last of his kind, and suddenly he's woken up by some strange organics who are now ruling the galaxy which was once their race. I cant agree with what he says about other races, but its mostly due to being the ultimate fish out of water, and him not understanding social protocol. He's kind of like Sheldon Cooper with a dark side.

Even Tali falls in the same boat due to her feelings against the Geth, but her race too has plenty of bitter history with the Geth. Similar situation to that of Wrex. And she has a smexy voice and ever smexier hips so u cant hate her

Ashley, on the other hand, has no real reason for her hatred, or being that wary of aliens. Humans had, what one big war with the turians, and that was resolved. Theres still bitterness but in general, the human-turian conflict doesnt come close to the animosity of the Geth-Quarian and Turian-Krogan-Salarian wars.

To sum it up, Ashley doesnt have Wrex's badassness, Javik's dry humour and cold, but sound logic, Tali's hips and general likeability, and not as sound a reason as those three to hate, or not trust other species. And she spouts poetry out of nowhere to sound smart and intellectual. She's a stupid little stuck up b****, thats all

Strange, I don't rememeber any instance where Ashley was stuck up. Nor do I remeber an instance where Wrex was "funny".

I'd assume her hatred is just as reasonable, her family name was humiliated by the Turians, probably hitting her as close to home as the genophage to Wrex and the Geth Quarian war to Tali.

Also, aside from social awkwardness, Javik shares almost no traits with the loveable theortical physicist.

Modifié par Theta Thetis, 28 mai 2012 - 12:17 .

[lpbarrows]

I'm not keen on Ashley, Wrex or Javik to be honest.
That's why Ashley and Wrex normally end up dying on Virmie in my playthroughs.
And should I replay ME3 again, I may not let Javik out of his box.

[xxSanitysuxx]

Theta Thetis wrote...

xxSanitysuxx wrote...

Javik and Wrex have a dry sense of humour which everyone loves.

And frankly, Wrex has far more reason to hate Turians and Salarians than Ashley... Lets see, they not only fought a long, bitter war, but they decided to end it by screwing up the Krogans' reproductory system, making it virtually impossible for them to sustain a population, and essentially their actions led to the krogans being sent back to the stone age. Yeah, i can understand why he's bitter and resentful

Javik is different, but his situation is also kind of understandable. In his cycle protheans were pretty much the only people he interacted with. He's been frozen for 50000 years, his species is extinct, he's the last of his kind, and suddenly he's woken up by some strange organics who are now ruling the galaxy which was once their race. I cant agree with what he says about other races, but its mostly due to being the ultimate fish out of water, and him not understanding social protocol. He's kind of like Sheldon Cooper with a dark side.

Even Tali falls in the same boat due to her feelings against the Geth, but her race too has plenty of bitter history with the Geth. Similar situation to that of Wrex. And she has a smexy voice and ever smexier hips so u cant hate her

Ashley, on the other hand, has no real reason for her hatred, or being that wary of aliens. Humans had, what one big war with the turians, and that was resolved. Theres still bitterness but in general, the human-turian conflict doesnt come close to the animosity of the Geth-Quarian and Turian-Krogan-Salarian wars.

To sum it up, Ashley doesnt have Wrex's badassness, Javik's dry humour and cold, but sound logic, Tali's hips and general likeability, and not as sound a reason as those three to hate, or not trust other species. And she spouts poetry out of nowhere to sound smart and intellectual. She's a stupid little stuck up b****, thats all

Strange, I don't rememeber any instance where Ashley was stuck up. Nor do I remeber an instance where Wrex was "funny".

I don't rememeber any instance where Wrex was stuck up. Nor do I remeber an instance where Ashley was "funny". 
Fixed.

But seriously, what? Wrex isnt a comedian, but he definitely has a dry sarcastic sense of humour. Ashley IS stuck up, and very serious... thats her character basically

[Theta Thetis]

xxSanitysuxx wrote...

Theta Thetis wrote...

xxSanitysuxx wrote...

Javik and Wrex have a dry sense of humour which everyone loves.

And frankly, Wrex has far more reason to hate Turians and Salarians than Ashley... Lets see, they not only fought a long, bitter war, but they decided to end it by screwing up the Krogans' reproductory system, making it virtually impossible for them to sustain a population, and essentially their actions led to the krogans being sent back to the stone age. Yeah, i can understand why he's bitter and resentful

Javik is different, but his situation is also kind of understandable. In his cycle protheans were pretty much the only people he interacted with. He's been frozen for 50000 years, his species is extinct, he's the last of his kind, and suddenly he's woken up by some strange organics who are now ruling the galaxy which was once their race. I cant agree with what he says about other races, but its mostly due to being the ultimate fish out of water, and him not understanding social protocol. He's kind of like Sheldon Cooper with a dark side.

Even Tali falls in the same boat due to her feelings against the Geth, but her race too has plenty of bitter history with the Geth. Similar situation to that of Wrex. And she has a smexy voice and ever smexier hips so u cant hate her

Ashley, on the other hand, has no real reason for her hatred, or being that wary of aliens. Humans had, what one big war with the turians, and that was resolved. Theres still bitterness but in general, the human-turian conflict doesnt come close to the animosity of the Geth-Quarian and Turian-Krogan-Salarian wars.

To sum it up, Ashley doesnt have Wrex's badassness, Javik's dry humour and cold, but sound logic, Tali's hips and general likeability, and not as sound a reason as those three to hate, or not trust other species. And she spouts poetry out of nowhere to sound smart and intellectual. She's a stupid little stuck up b****, thats all

Strange, I don't rememeber any instance where Ashley was stuck up. Nor do I remeber an instance where Wrex was "funny".

I don't rememeber any instance where Wrex was stuck up. Nor do I remeber an instance where Ashley was "funny". 
Fixed.

But seriously, what? Wrex isnt a comedian, but he definitely has a dry sarcastic sense of humour. Ashley IS stuck up, and very serious... thats her character basically

Quotes? Example? Otherwise, your point is moot.

[wryterra]

Mdoggy1214 wrote...

Yeah i'm opening up this can of worms again. Now before you start making up excuses for Wrex and Javik, lemme ask you this. If I hate the British as a whole, for the crap that went down 300 years ago, would you make up excuses for me? There really is no real excuse out there for hating an entire race based on the actions of a few. Ashley had trust issues with other aliens but eventually grew out of it and trusted them as allies.

But then you've got Wrex who just openly insult Salarians and Turians in front of them, even go as far as joking about eating them. Then you've got Javik who just straight out trolls people. Not to mention there are other characters in the game that have made statements about trusting other aliens and what not. So why is Ashley the exception? Because she's human?

I don't know why it took me this long to notice this.

I don't like Javik which rules him out. 

As for Wrex, the genophage didn't go down 300 years ago. It's going down now. It's happening to him. It's happening to his entire people. 

However, it's not her racism that makes me hate Ashley, it's her hypocrisy. 

Oh and if we want to talk racism, let's mention Liara, who sees all other races as non-people. 

Modifié par wryterra, 28 mai 2012 - 12:20 .

[Zoonz]

Presley and Ashley have a mistrust of Aliens in ME1, though Presley realised his error very quickly, Ashley got on my nerves, defending her racist beliefs with a dog analogy, also she is very rude to Liara, showing jealosy even with no encouragement of romance, though give her a hint of one and you do get a nice little cat-fight.

[DJBare]

Call her racists or xenophobe, the fact is Shepard can change her view point, racists are not so easy to change.

[Theta Thetis]

I've never heard her explicitly say that humanity was superior.

Also, people here have an issue differentiating racism from xenophobia.

[Shepardtheshepard]

There's a lot of people who never take a renegade choice on here. Because the freaking out they're having over Ash would be just a drop in the ocean compared to some of the things renegade Shepard can say/do.

[vixvicco]

I like Ashley, but I suppose I can see why she is considered annoying.

[Henioo]

I wouldn't say I hate her. But I dislike her because of her hipocrisy.

[earlmobile]

I dont like Wrex. Liked him in ME1 though, when he was more cynical. Javik is just fun because he's mean to everyone, right from the moment where he doesnt want to shake hands with you. I cant imagine him being friendly with his own people, i think he'd be equally hostile to proteans.

As for Ashley, i think she's a little bit of a hypocrite and i dont like the xenophobia. But that's not why i dislike her. I dislike her because she betrayed me in ME2 and if the game would let me, i'd silent-treat her into oblivion. Same goes for kaidan.

[xxSanitysuxx]

Theta Thetis wrote...

I've never heard her explicitly say that humanity was superior.

Also, people here have an issue differentiating racism from xenophobia.

Whatever it is, though, it makes her easy to dislike, because unlike Wrex and Tali, the justification for her actions are pretty weak. Granted her family's name was sullied.... big f***ing deal... Just look at what happened to Wrex. His species is doomed to become extinct and is dying out before his eyes. Then, to make sure his species goes extinct, Turians tried to nuke his homeworld. 

Now, look at Tali...  Her species was driven from their homeworld, other council races look upon them and abuse them constantly due to the Morning War, and they now drift aimlessly in space. 
The williams name was ruined by the war you say? What about Tali? Her father single-handedly endangered the entire fleet and is looked upon as a monster by the entire quarian fleet if his actions are revealed. 

Plus, the human-turian war was in the past and Ashley is still pissed about it... Wrex and Tali are living the very same conflict that started centuries ago... they have a right to be angry as their species' conflicts havent been resolved yet.
Seriously, Wrex and Tali have been through and are still going through far, far more than Ashley and still have far more likeable personalities. 

[Theta Thetis]

xxSanitysuxx wrote...

Theta Thetis wrote...

I've never heard her explicitly say that humanity was superior.

Also, people here have an issue differentiating racism from xenophobia.

Whatever it is, though, it makes her easy to dislike, because unlike Wrex and Tali, the justification for her actions are pretty weak. Granted her family's name was sullied.... big f***ing deal... Just look at what happened to Wrex. His species is doomed to become extinct and is dying out before his eyes. Then, to make sure his species goes extinct, Turians tried to nuke his homeworld. 

Now, look at Tali...  Her species was driven from their homeworld, other council races look upon them and abuse them constantly due to the Morning War, and they now drift aimlessly in space. 
The williams name was ruined by the war you say? What about Tali? Her father single-handedly endangered the entire fleet and is looked upon as a monster by the entire quarian fleet if his actions are revealed. 

Plus, the human-turian war was in the past and Ashley is still pissed about it... Wrex and Tali are living the very same conflict that started centuries ago... they have a right to be angry as their species' conflicts havent been resolved yet.
Seriously, Wrex and Tali have been through and are still going through far, far more than Ashley and still have far more likeable personalities. 

I suppose you're right, Ashely probably should have gotten over it long ago.

Though the point of personality is relative, what one can percieve as likeable, the other many not.

[ImmovableMover]

Ashley wasn't racist (As far as I know each Alien species has only got one race), she was Xenophobic towards anything non-human and felt humans were superior.

And saying "She gets less bigoted after a while" is a moot point as she is dead. Why on Earth would I sacrifice a non-bigot for a bigot on the premise of "She becomes less bigoted later on"?

Wrex's distrust of Salarians and Turians is pretty justified, what with the genophage actually being a real thing that is really affecting the Krogan all day every day. This isn't some irrational "They're different **** them" trivial **** that happened, This was the forced sterilization of an entire species after they'd used them to die in someone elses war...and lets not forget that the Salarians STILL wanted to **** with the Krogan, so it's not even like it's old news.

As for javik...I didn't like the guy, So you get no one-up on me about not being consistent from me. Not that he was ever really racist or xenophobic, he's going through a giant culture shock and is less than empathetic about it...IT would be like the equivalent of waking up tomorrow and finding that cats were now ruling the world with a sprawling civilisation, from your point of view only the day before you were making them look stupid in captioned pictures and feeding them dishes of **** meat you placed on the floor...you're not just going to instantly accept the change.

[Theta Thetis]

ImmovableMover wrote...

Ashley wasn't racist (As far as I know each Alien species has only got one race), she was Xenophobic towards anything non-human and felt humans were superior.

And saying "She gets less bigoted after a while" is a moot point as she is dead. Why on Earth would I sacrifice a non-bigot for a bigot on the premise of "She becomes less bigoted later on"?

Wrex's distrust of Salarians and Turians is pretty justified, what with the genophage actually being a real thing that is really affecting the Krogan all day every day. This isn't some irrational "They're different **** them" trivial **** that happened, This was the forced sterilization of an entire species after they'd used them to die in someone elses war...and lets not forget that the Salarians STILL wanted to **** with the Krogan, so it's not even like it's old news.

As for javik...I didn't like the guy, So you get no one-up on me about not being consistent from me. Not that he was ever really racist or xenophobic, he's going through a giant culture shock and is less than empathetic about it...IT would be like the equivalent of waking up tomorrow and finding that cats were now ruling the world with a sprawling civilisation, from your point of view only the day before you were making them look stupid in captioned pictures and feeding them dishes of **** meat you placed on the floor...you're not just going to instantly accept the change.

Ashley was xenophobic, not racist, she never said humans were superior.

[ImmovableMover]

Theta Thetis wrote...

Ashley was xenophobic, not racist, she never said humans were superior.

Okay, so you apparently managed to not read the opening paragraph of my post. Here, lemme put it in bold so that you don't miss it this time.

"Ashley wasn't racist (As far as I know each Alien species has only got
one race), she was Xenophobic towards anything non-human and felt humans
were superior."

Not only did I make a point of saying she wasn't racist, I didn't say she said that humans were superior, but that she felt it. Do you live in some fairy tale world where you only believe a person holds an opinion if they explcitly state it? Does subtlety, subtext and implication not exist for you? I mean, we've already discovered "The ability to read" is alien to you so it seems very likely that nuance is just an impossible concept for you to grasp at all.

[Reikilea]

I always thought it was because Wrex or Javik were not human. Being normal human (and not overly sexualised or psycho) in this game makes you boring. For me Ashley was never racist, she had a proper reason to not trust them blindly, considering her family history.

Same for Kaidan, Why people consider him whiny? I cant remember one time when he was whiny. He didnt even want anything from you, not like Tali, Garrus or Wrex, where you had to buy their loyalty. Twice. And Garrus and Wrex whined much more more. Or Thane. Or Miranda.
But people would never admit that. So its easier for them to act illogical and say Ashley is racist and Kaidan is whiny.

[Asch Lavigne]

Starspiral wrote...

Ashley is not a racist, but she is a speciesist - these are two completely different things, go look them up.
I think the main problem with Ashley is that Bioware messed up on her character development - she should have been allowed to "grow" through ME1, would have been a much more interesting character imo.

I agree. If there was a conversation near the end of the game about how different she feels now that she's worked with aliens and went through everything with them (or maybe didn't feel any different) she would have been far more likeable to me.

I agreed with her when she said "we shouldn't let the aliens explore the ship" though. Not because they were aliens but because they were non-alliance. I didn't mind her being religious because I didn't feel she was preachy about it. She mentioned it, asked if it was ok and then left it alone.