385 réponses à ce sujet

[Stakis]

As a Human noble i would never let loghain live, i dont give a flying **** about ferelden interests coming first, his a walking piece of **** responsible for my family deaths (impossible he didnt knew about howes plan ) and also responsible for everything thats going on thats leading to a civil war, anora is just more of the same, she plays you as long you dance to her tune , i would prefer simply to kill her but sadly we cant do it, alistair hardened ot not, with eamon, wynne and even myself helping him out is by far the most reasonable choice, besides his speech before the final battle proves his a king, maybe not in is head yet but for sure in his blood and heart.

[Cyberpunk]

Stakis wrote...

As a Human noble i would never let loghain live, i dont give a flying **** about ferelden interests coming first, his a walking piece of **** responsible for my family deaths (impossible he didnt knew about howes plan ) and also responsible for everything thats going on thats leading to a civil war, anora is just more of the same, she plays you as long you dance to her tune , i would prefer simply to kill her but sadly we cant do it, alistair hardened ot not, with eamon, wynne and even myself helping him out is by far the most reasonable choice, besides his speech before the final battle proves his a king, maybe not in is head yet but for sure in his blood and heart.

I relate. Really I hope Bioware sees this thread and makes a DLC where we can order Anora's execution after the Archdemon!

[TuringPoint]

velmyn wrote...

In contrast, dismissing what Alistair did simply because the entirety of Ferelden didn't develop a knife-ear fetish overnight is unfair. Look at the real-life parallels...the Emancipation Proclamation was...how many years ago? Some of the racial tensions still survive nonetheless. He may have not done a whole lot, but at least he did SOMETHING.

Either:
Alistair took a step in the right direction...trying to help the situation in the Alienage, and inviting the Dalish to live alongside the humans...
Or:
Alistair actually knows his politics, and keeps the elves in check by giving them the illusion that they finally have a say in the court. (judging his character, I doubt this...but maybe hardened? intentionally or not, the result is satisfactory)

I just don't understand why you would dismiss Anora entirely.  I certainly don't mean to dismiss Alistair's good decisions, I'm sure he makes many good decisions.  I want to offer that Alistair's happy ending leaves a lot out.  If you don't buy that, I don't care.

[TuringPoint]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Don't think so. If oyu talk to Cailan as a city elf, he clearly shows sympathy for their plight and promises that he will change things for hte better. Alas, he never manages to, due ot Loghains backstab.
Hence, my character hates Loghain even more, as he destroyed one big opportunity to make things better for the elves. And then went into the opposite extreeme with the slavery bit. OH yeah..his head is so gonan roll when I finish this playtrough.

I do like Cailan's intentions, but I really wonder if he'd be effective enough to actually do even as much about the Alienage as Alistair did.  Not that he wouldn't, just that I don't know.  I believe he is a kind soul.  I would certainly give him the benefit of a doubt if there were the chance to.  Kind people who didn't have the energy or spirit to make a difference have made all sorts of empty promises that never turned out, in the past.

I do completely believe that Cailan would've marched for a Cousland, though.  I think Anora would've stood behind that too.

Modifié par Alocormin, 05 décembre 2009 - 02:10 .

[tmp7704]

velmyn wrote...

Except that I recall she will still take the crown even if you have Loghain executed. The only thing that changes is you can't have Alistair marry Anora since she won't marry her father's executioner.

If it was indignation, Anora would refuse the crown no matter what if you have Loghain executed.

It may seem like a ridiculous concept, but generally two insults tend to be perceived as more grave matter than one. If i spit in someone's face *and* call their mother a **** they have reasonable cause to feel more upset than if i just did one of these things.

In Anora's case one serious moral blow doesn't make her upset enough to maybe wish death on herself, but two combined do. Is that really odd and incomprehensible, as far as human reactions go? Does she have to refuse the throne because her father was killed, even when getting this throne actually means the person who did kill her father *don't* get to rule? If anything, it'd seem like good reason to accept it just on its own.

Sigh.

The post I was responding to argues to the effect that she refuses to submit because it's the 'right thing,' and that if she was just manipulative she would submit and stage a coup later. It's not a very bright idea.

The post you was responding to wasn't arguing refusing to submit was "the right thing". It was arguing the consequence of that refusal was very clear at the point the refusal happened. Which would mean the decision was made while being aware of these consequences, and apparently preferring them over the alternative.

Swearing the oath in the case of Anora, means severing all ties to the throne. She's essentially renouncing the best reason she could have ever had for such a coup. [..]

Staging such a coup anyway now means that she's not retaking what's 'rightfully' hers, she's stealing it...and how many neutral nobles do you think are going to be persuaded by such an empty cause? How will they convince their vassals? The majority of Fereldan nobility may be callous,(which I don't believe to be the case) but they're hardly anything like Arl Howe, and none are loyal enough to Anora that they would rally for her regardless.

I'm afraid the game itself goes against your theory here.

Consider the situation where it's Alistair having the hissy fit. He does as he's told, and swears he won't have anything to do with the whole Ferelden business anymore. This is considered *not* good enough. He is still considered a potential threat. A valid one. Most importantly no one argues that, no one says "oh but he swore an oath, no one will ever listen to him now". Why is that? Simply put, because the nobles gathered in the Landsmeet have much more down-to-earth look at these matters. And they realize oaths can be broken and causes can be supported based simply on what gains are promised in return.

If it's about fight for power the supporters on either side rarely do it out of nothing but loyalty. Often it is rather out of perceived mutual self-interest and a chance to get more than one already has. Which is only natural when one is risking what they already have.

[velmyn]

Alocormin wrote...
I just don't understand why you would dismiss Anora entirely.  I certainly don't mean to dismiss Alistair's good decisions, I'm sure he makes many good decisions.  I want to offer that Alistair's happy ending leaves a lot out.  If you don't buy that, I don't care.

I don't.

I'm simply not convinced Anora is half as good as people make her out to be. The best endings involve Anora sure, but they also require Alistair or the Grey Warden to be around. Alone, her endings are hardly better than Alistair's.

[Yorenec]

Xandurpein wrote...

So you argue that he thinks that the honor of the Grey Wardens is more important than defeating the Blight? If Alistair thinks so he is not very fit to rule in my book. Personally I think he simply lost it becuase he blames Loghain for Duncan's death. I played a Cousland male and I wanted to kill him badly for being rsponisble for my parents death, but I choose to remain above that, in the interest of Ferelden.

That's twice now you've shoved words into my mouth. You seem to be good at this.
No I don't think that he truly believes that, and yes I do think he lost it and let his emotions get in the way.
I'm saying that his crying about "honor of the Grey Wardens being tainted" is more justifable than Anora's "bawwww I didn't get my way".

Loghain had very little to do with the Couslands being betrayed. It was pretty much all Howe, whom you get your revenge on prior to the Landsmeet.  Loghain simply turned a blind eye, I don't think he even really approved of it.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

I honestly wonder how people can think Anora is "fit to rule" and is better than Alistar, especially while these same people concede that Loghain was a bad person that needed to be removed from power and/or killed.



I've only read a couple pages, but it seems some people are trying to compare the supposed atrocities Allistar would commit to the atrocities we know Anora would eventually do. She may know the game of politics well, I agree. Especially when it comes to using people for her own ends, but she is also stuck in that game of nobles and family. She doesn't care for the people (something I think rulers are suppose to do rather than play tea time with their rich friends). She has been ambitious and power hungry since day one, for the sake of power. Not for the sake of doing good.



Alistar on the other hand, due to his background and albeit naive sense of justice and righteousness would be a very fair and good King for the people. He has his uncle to handle the more difficult waters of politics and I'm sure that he'll pick up these skills eventually as time passes.



It really was a simple and obvious choice for me, choose between a tyrant, a tyrant's spoiled daughter, or an royal heir who has seen the problems of the world.

[Kenshen]

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I let her rule my first playthrough.

She never backstabbed me because I never backstabbed her. I love the character, and wish there were an Anora romance.

She never backstabbed you because you let her become Queen. She backstabs you if you  say that Alistair would be what Fereldan needs. (technically not a backstab to Anora because she came to you saying that they needed to defeat her father and the darkspawn, her being queen was never the issue that prompted you to rescue her)

She came to you pleading to be "rescued" because she knew her father was wrong and Fereldan needed to be saved. Would you have rescued her if she said "rescue me so I can be Queen?"

Actually you go to rescue her because if you didn't and Loghain had her killed, it is Arl Eamon and you who will be blamed for it or so you are lead to believe.  I don't think Loghain would have actually done that but you never know when it comes to a mad man.  I wish they would have given us the option of either leaving her to her fate or coming to the rescue.

[Axterix]

tmp7704 wrote...

Consider the situation where it's Alistair having the hissy fit. He does as he's told, and swears he won't have anything to do with the whole Ferelden business anymore. This is considered *not* good enough. He is still considered a potential threat. A valid one. Most importantly no one argues that, no one says "oh but he swore an oath, no one will ever listen to him now". Why is that? Simply put, because the nobles gathered in the Landsmeet have much more down-to-earth look at these matters. And they realize oaths can be broken and causes can be supported based simply on what gains are promised in return.

Not to mention, the worry that someone will stage a revolt in his name.  Which, if you make Anora the queen, spare Loghain, and Alistair is unhardened, becomes a drunk, is exactly what happens.  Doubt Alistair was behind it or in any way involved.  Doesn't mean someone won't use the name to stir up trouble.

[cglasgow]

Yorenec wrote...

Loghain had very little to do with the Couslands being betrayed. It was pretty much all Howe, whom you get your revenge on prior to the Landsmeet.  Loghain simply turned a blind eye, I don't think he even really approved of it.

On the other hand, Teryn Bryce Cousland was head of the second-highest noble house in Ferelden, and at least as prominent as Arl Eamon.  Not having him around to make speeches in the Landsmeet was very convenient for Loghain, wasn't it.

[Axterix]

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I honestly wonder how people can think Anora is "fit to rule" and is better than Alistar, especially while these same people concede that Loghain was a bad person that needed to be removed from power and/or killed.

Anora has been practically ruling for 5 years and has, by all accounts, been doing a good job.  She is fit to rule.  The epilogue backs that up as well, her rule was good, the only major problem being an elven revolt during a food shortage.

Alistair, what we've seen of him, would rather follow than lead and does not want to be king.  And if you talk to Alistair, pretty sure he states she'd make a fine ruler.  Additionally, he's a Warden.  Once a Warden, always a Warden, they have no place in politics and should not be able to leave the order to resume a political role.  That just sets up bad situations that endanger Warden neutrality, like what happened at Warden Keep.  One should not overthrow an existing ruler, even a bad one, and try to place a Warden on the throne unless it is needed to stop a Blight or combat darkspawn.

That said, I did see her has harder, more calculating, which is why I wanted to marry her off to Alistair, so that his goodness would temper her more ruthless aspects, while she would provide the drive that Alistair lacks.  Together, with each ones strength balancing the others weakness, they'd have been a pair for the legends.  Unfortunately, Alistair was upset with my decision to spare Loghain, and how he acted there served to reinforce that my decision to make Anora queen was the right one.

It really was a simple and obvious choice for me, choose between a tyrant, a tyrant's spoiled daughter, or an royal heir who has seen the problems of the world.

For me, it was pretty simple as well.  Go with the proven ruler, the current queen or the unacknowledged bastard son who didn't want to be king and felt he wouldn't be a good one, being manipulated into the role by another noble.

[Axterix]

Yorenec wrote...

Loghain had very little to do with the Couslands being betrayed. It was pretty much all Howe, whom you get your revenge on prior to the Landsmeet.  Loghain simply turned a blind eye, I don't think he even really approved of it.

I'm pretty sure Loghain did know of and approve of it.  The 2 biggest possible rivals to his taking power, one happens to get poisoned, the other has his castle taken over, his family slaughtered by Loghain's closest ally. 

Of course, that all comes down to if the poisoning happened before the battle or afterwards, while you were recovering from your wounds in Flemeth's hut.  Basically, whether you believe Loghain planned for the King to die all along.  Howe thinking he could get away with it sort of implies that Howe, at least, expected the King to die.

[velmyn]

tmp7704 wrote...
In Anora's case one serious moral blow doesn't make her upset enough to maybe wish death on herself, but two
combined do. Is that really odd and incomprehensible, as far as human reactions go? Does she have to refuse the throne because her father was killed, even when getting this throne actually means the person who did
kill her father *don't* get to rule? If anything, it'd seem like good reason to accept it just on its own.

What in the entire game even suggests that Anora has a sense of moral decency? I might as well start arguing that Alistair is a shrewd politician despite most evidence to the contrary. Wanting the throne just to be able to execute her father's killer again makes her no better than Alistair.

Anora's attachment to her father goes against the fact that he is a deserter and a traitor. It's understandable, but a purely emotional response owing to their blood relationship.

Given how many times the idea that Ferelden is a 'medieval society' is being tossed around...you should really start examining how traitors were executed. Loghain was given the 'mercy' of clean death by a blade...considering that even being drawn and quartered is pretty tame compared to some of the punishments that existed.

Do I think it's understandable that she was angry? Yes. Do I think that it was because she took some moral offense at what was being done? No. If she did, she'd be a hypcrite.

tmp7704 wrote...
The post you was responding to wasn't arguing refusing to submit was "the right thing". It was arguing the consequence of that refusal was very clear at the point the refusal happened. Which would mean the decision was made while being aware of these consequences, and apparently preferring them over the alternative.

So that bit about 'if power was all she wanted' bit was completely irrelevant? Please explain.

tmp7704 wrote...
I'm afraid the game itself goes against your theory here.

Consider the situation where it's Alistair having the hissy fit. He does as he's told, and swears he won't have anything to do with the whole Ferelden business anymore. This is considered *not* good enough. He is still considered a potential threat. A valid one. Most importantly no one argues that, no one says "oh but he swore an oath, no one will ever listen to him now". Why is that? Simply put, because the nobles gathered in the Landsmeet have much more down-to-earth look at these matters. And they realize oaths can be broken and causes can be supported based simply on what gains are promised in return.

No, simply that those that are motivated by 'cause,' like Arl Eamon, will no longer buy what he's selling. (if he ever does)

I assume by valid you mean that he actually has the capacity to pull off a successful coup?

Anora clearly still considers him a 'potential' threat. You're allowed to convince Anora into letting him go...being the ruthless pragmatist she is, why would she do that if Alistair was such a 'valid' threat. Is this the supposed sign of her 'morality?' Or is it simply because she understands he's no longer a 'valid' threat to her throne, and is just keen on tying up loose ends?

It's likely she predicted something like the 'short rebellion' that occurs in his name would happen, but figured it would have no effect on her rule. Obviously when it happened nobody worth noticing took part in it, given how short it was. It was most likely the rebellion of a few ambitious Banns seeking profit under a cause that nobody believed. There was no 'retaking' of the throne, when Alistair severed all ties, there were most certainly none that did it out of loyalty(which would require Alistair to be the leader of the rebellion).

Whether you have Alistair executed, set free, or have Anora locked up...none of the Banns say otherwise. Their opinions on the matter are simply not clear. Only Arl Eamon(who is essentially Alistair's second in command and spokesman) speaks in favor dealing with Anora 'once' she refuses to submit.

There is also a critical difference here. Alistair's claim is by blood. Anora's claim is through marriage. Might that be a signicant factor in this issue? I'm not sure about Ferelden's policies regarding divorce so I can't say for sure.

tmp7704 wrote...
If it's about fight for power the supporters on either side rarely do it out of nothing but loyalty. Often it is rather out of perceived mutual self-interest and a chance to get more than one already has. Which is only natural when one
is risking what they already have.

Self-interest for the noblemen themselves yes...but is it so for all their vassals? No. I'm not arguing that loyalty or a cause are the only deciding factors: only that they are 'as' significant as interest when it comes to actually being able to pull off such a risky endeavor.

If one of these factors is large enough, they can supercede the others: that much is true...Loyalty in the case of Ser Cauthrien, interest in the case of Arl Howe, and cause in the case of Arl Eamon. People like these are pretty rare though. Most people have radically differing values, affecting the validity of each as motivators. Pragmatists especially will be keen on this, since regardless of their own values, they need to know that others will follow suit.

Anora clearly lacks a loyal support base(again, unless proven otherwise). Not all nobles are solely after interest, so she can't simply rely on that(not to mention such people aren't reliable to begin with), which means she definitely NEEDS a cause in order to pull off a successful coup.

The keyword here being successful.

Compare this to the rebellion against Arland. Sophia Dryden was specifically sought out to lead the rebellion with the support of the Banns, and she still failed. You need pretty much everyone to agree with you...and that involves some motivated by loyalty, some by interest, some by a cause, and most by a combination of all three. The Landsmeet makes this painfully obvious when you try to garner support.

Modifié par velmyn, 05 décembre 2009 - 11:02 .

[cglasgow]

You can convince Anora to let Alistair go because she's afraid to ****** you off, not because she's having an attack of niceness.



You are, after all, the kingmaker who put her back on that throne in the first place -- if you'd picked Alistair to back, right now he'd be king and Anora would be locked up in a tower. Anora might be ruthless and self-centered, but she's not stupid: she knows that she cannot afford to ****** you off until after she's had some years to get solidly back in position, and the fact that you're sticking up for Alistair means that you might be willing to make a fight of things right now if she keeps pushing.

[cglasgow]

Also, re: the different fate of Arl Eamon vs. the Couslands. Arl Eamon really has no heir, except for Teagan: Connor is both underage and mage-talented, which means he's off to the Circle (and forfeits his noble title) the instant that's discovered. And Loghain knows about Connor's magic, as Isolde appealed to him for help, the silly bint. Also, Arlessa Isolde is, as mentioned, a silly bint: she would have no ability to exert any substantial political force in the Landsmeet with her husband incapacitated. Bann Teagan is no shrinking violet, true, but he's also a very minor lord in his own right, without the prestige to rally the Landsmeet.



Bryce Cousland, on the other hand, has an extremely smart and capable wife, and two healthy adult children. Simply poisoning him gets Loghain nowhere: Fergus or your PC becomes Teryn Cousland in his stead, with all of his title and most of his prestige, and with mama Eleanor still around to provide the political experience that they lack. In order to remove the Couslands as political opposition, you pretty much have to wipe out the entire family line.



Hence why Arl Eamon gets a subtle poisoning and the Couslands get a rampaging massacre.

[Mavryek]

Personally I think Alistair leaving was a poor choice of the writers. To me it seemed completely out of character for one that was indoctrinated into the Grey Wardens. Loghain's being forced to go through the Joining is a in fact a death sentence for Logain as well as years of punishment. Why the writers choose not to allow the PC to speak to Alistair and show him the reasoning of such a choice is something I found disappointing. I thought up until this point that the writing for Alistair had shown he was a person that did not act only on emotions. His leaving based on this emotion over Duncan in my eyes was completely out of character.

[Axterix]

cglasgow wrote...

You can convince Anora to let Alistair go because she's afraid to ****** you off, not because she's having an attack of niceness.

Personally, I felt it was more a favor for a favor.  I let her keep the throne, she owed me one.  I asked for Alistair's life.  She didn't like it, but that is what I asked for, it was within her power to grant, and so she did it.

If it was a security of power issue, she could have assassinated him later, be easy enough to bump off a drunk.  But she didn't.

She gave her word and kept it.  Which makes sense, after all, if she broke it, nobody else could trust her and that would hinder her ability to rule.

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

Axterix wrote...

Mikazukinoyaiba2 wrote...

I honestly wonder how people can think Anora is "fit to rule" and is better than Alistar, especially while these same people concede that Loghain was a bad person that needed to be removed from power and/or killed.

Anora has been practically ruling for 5 years and has, by all accounts, been doing a good job.  She is fit to rule.  The epilogue backs that up as well, her rule was good, the only major problem being an elven revolt during a food shortage.

Alistair, what we've seen of him, would rather follow than lead and does not want to be king.  And if you talk to Alistair, pretty sure he states she'd make a fine ruler.  Additionally, he's a Warden.  Once a Warden, always a Warden, they have no place in politics and should not be able to leave the order to resume a political role.  That just sets up bad situations that endanger Warden neutrality, like what happened at Warden Keep.  One should not overthrow an existing ruler, even a bad one, and try to place a Warden on the throne unless it is needed to stop a Blight or combat darkspawn.

That said, I did see her has harder, more calculating, which is why I wanted to marry her off to Alistair, so that his goodness would temper her more ruthless aspects, while she would provide the drive that Alistair lacks.  Together, with each ones strength balancing the others weakness, they'd have been a pair for the legends.  Unfortunately, Alistair was upset with my decision to spare Loghain, and how he acted there served to reinforce that my decision to make Anora queen was the right one.

It really was a simple and obvious choice for me, choose between a tyrant, a tyrant's spoiled daughter, or an royal heir who has seen the problems of the world.

For me, it was pretty simple as well.  Go with the proven ruler, the current queen or the unacknowledged bastard son who didn't want to be king and felt he wouldn't be a good one, being manipulated into the role by another noble.

I understand your argument, and yeah maybe it would be best if they both got married. But I didn't want to force Alistar into a marriage and regardless of Grey Wardens supposing to be politically neutral, the situation called for us to have to mingle into politics. 

I felt we were going to remove him from the Grey Wardens and put him down as a former one, either way though it certainly doesn't hurt to have a King who is friendly towards our then exiled group.

I also had another alterior motive, Alistar was a friend and I had the interests of my character's people. I knew Anora wouldn't want to free the elves, she's a human noble that has been pampered by them all of her life. Alistar I knew wasn't racist and through me saw the credibility of my people.

Needless to say, I was very happy to see him give my people their own land.

I don't know what happens in the Anora ending, but it can't beat that.

Modifié par Mikazukinoyaiba2, 05 décembre 2009 - 11:57 .

[Krigwin]

Xandurpein wrote...
That is your scenario and you are of course free to promote it, but it's not evidence...

And? What is your point? Anora remaining Queen and being a "skilled" ruler is also just one possible scenario. If we're to look at her motivations from an enlightened perspective then we need to consider the sum of all her actions.

But no, I disagree and believe it was a premeditated decision. She's quite keen on remaining Queen and Alistair is a possible threat to that. The only reason you can talk her out of it is, as others have stated, because at that point you're even more powerful than she is and she needs to acquiesce to your desires or she knows she risks making a dangerous enemy who can remove her from the throne if need be.

Why stop there...

Anora sends you on a dubious mission into dangerous territory. Despite subterfuge that she planned on your behalf you are ambushed by powerful enemies that apparently have a preternatural knowledge of your movements and actions, when realistically no one except you and Anora should know. If you try to talk your way out of it Anora will even point-blank betray you. Later on in the game she will possibly betray you again only because you disagree with her. If you cannot see the implications of all of these things then we have nothing further to discuss.

It is very easy to talk Anora into pardoning Alistair, it doesn't even take a persuade check...

I say she is unable to compromise because it's Queen or bust for her. She could've stayed on to aid Alistair as an advisor. She could've become some kind of council member or prestiged noblewoman. She could've stepped down gracefully and asked for a stable position when you tell her at Eamon's estate you're not going to make her Queen. She could've done many things, but what she does is stick the knife in your back as soon as she realizes you're not going to help her. In the process allying herself again with Loghain despite even agreeing with you that he is bad for Ferelden.

Ferelden is a medieval kingdom, it's clearly not an ideal place to start with...

The "golden age" ending is only achieved if Anora and Alistair marry. I prefer to believe the reason why their marriage achieves this and not the male human noble PC+Anora marriage is because you're much smarter than Alistair and not as easily manipulated. Otherwise, her rule is no better than Alistair's, hardened or not. You're welcome to believe she has been a skilled ruler for some time but I've already established my doubts on that one and why the ingame evidence is shaky at best.

"Evil" is, in my opinion, harsh for even Anora, considering there are a lot more evil people in this game, but depending on your definition I can certainly see her being labeled as such. She's narcissistic to the point of noncooperation, not just a good liar and manipulator of men but an extremely consistent one, clearly has no regard for the well-being of others and is willing to kill to get her way (albeit not by her own hand), and started her ways early on in life, like a real-life psychopath. You've killed people in DA:O for far worse reasons.

[Xandurpein]

Thre is in fact one way to play the ending at Landsmeet that I think disproves the idea that Anora planned to kill Alistair all along. If you win the Landsmeet, challenge Loghain to single combat and then let Alistair be your champion, Alistair will automatically kill Loghain, without letting the player, or Riordan, have anything to say about it. If you after the fight still give the Crown to Anora, she will only insist on Alistair swearing an oath to give up his claims on the throne. Consequently it is ONLY if Alistair throws his big tantrum when the player pardons Loghain and demands to be King so he can kill Loghain, that Anora wants Alistair dead.

[tmp7704]

Krigwin wrote...

You're welcome to believe she has been a skilled ruler for some time but I've already established my doubts on that one and why the ingame evidence is shaky at best.

Hmm let's see.

"It is common knowledge that in the five years Anora and Cailan held the throne, she was the one wielding the power. She is held in much higher esteem than her husband by the people of Ferelden, nobility and commoners alike, and commands the respect even of foreign nations, having once inspired Empres Celene I of Orlais to declare, "Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among brambles.""

wouldn't you say the people who had opportunity to experience her government first hand for multiple years are better suited to judge the quality of said government, than the player who is given the knowledge of just few anecdotes if that?

You've killed people in DA:O for far worse reasons.

This can be used to form opinion about the player's own character, their ability to judge characters of others (or lack thereof) and maybe their own possible psychopathic tendencies, but very little else. "I've killed for less" as argument presumes the said killing for less was justified in the first place.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 décembre 2009 - 12:47 .

[Ariella]

Yorenec wrote...

Loghain had very little to do with the Couslands being betrayed. It was pretty much all Howe, whom you get your revenge on prior to the Landsmeet.  Loghain simply turned a blind eye, I don't think he even really approved of it.

Howe would have never acted on his own, period. He's not the type. Loghain didn't turn a "blind eye" but knew before hand and if you ask for an audience with him, lies straight to your face....

[kazic284]

Two questions: How exactly do you toughed alistair up and, why are people saying that Alistair's mother was an elf? I think I missed something.

I too think that Anora is out only for herself. Like others have said, she in many cases does what is bad for the kingdom, if it is good her for. What really gets me is her betrayal of you at the landsmeet. She tells you her dad is a nut, she knows he killed her husband, and basically usurped her own authority after his death. In what universe is siding with such a man a good idea, even if the alternative doesn't get you what you want? If, after she sided with Loghain, things went his way and you were killed and Eamon was either disgraced and/or killed and all that Jazz what would she gain? She would have been back were she started at the beginning(ish) of this tale, and worse, the country would have been destroyed by the blight!

The only thing I can think of would be that maybe she was planning on having Loghain assassinated after the Blight was dealt with (She wouldn't know you needed a warden to stop it) but if that's the case, that's even more proof of her being more opportunistic and ruthless.

I also agree with the idea that she was a bad wartime ruler. When it was obvious that her father was crazy, killed her husband, and was a clear threat to her power, she doesn't even really put an honest effort into fighting him, not until you do all the work of throwing up an opposition to him. In my mind, a strong ruler (even if she was a betrayer, because she could backstab you later) would have gotten a message through to your character to help her garner support against her father, then would have gone about doing so herself in the meantime. In the 3 or so times I've played the game, the only thing she does is issue half-hearted pleas for the dissenter to stop fighting her crazy father. Doesn't make muck sense to me.

Modifié par kazic284, 06 décembre 2009 - 07:33 .

[Archonsg]

 Wow. It took a bit to read through all ten pages. There's something that everyone seemed to have missed, the very real possibility that Anora lied to you from the very start. I'll get to it in a minute, but before that I'd like to clear up some things first. 
At no point did Loghain threatened to kill Anora. Everyone who posted about how Anora feared for her life essentially got suckered by her when you believed the story she told you, which was based on that lie I was talking about. 

A little background first though. I was bothered by the whole situation at the Arl of Denerim's (Arl Howe's) estate when confronting Ser Cauthrien, which stemmed from a "quest" that started from Erlina, an elven handmaid of Anora's.

Did no one catch just how different Erlina was from other elven servants? Her attitude and bearing is more like an operative, an agent used to working in the background doing “dirty work” if you will,  then a "handmaiden" wouldn't you say?

Accuse her of being a spy and she retorts that she is here for Anora and not for Loghain and that they goals are no longer the same quite heatedly and perhaps letting on more then she should,. Erlina then catches herself and goes on to tell you of Anora's visit to Howe as a queen to demand answers. She claims that Howe isn't subtle while Loghain is, painting Loghain as the "greater" villain here. Erlina then reveals that Arl Howe has locked Anora up away in his estate. 

In her exact words she says “I heard Howe say she would be a greater ally dead than alive. Especially if her death could be blamed on Arl Eamon.”
 
We all assumed that Howe was speaking to Loghain but that will be proved to be a wrong assumption. Erlina listens in as both the PC and Arl Eamon discuss Loghain’s role and the trap which has been sprung, agreeing that no matter what, rescuing Anora whether this is a trap or not would be the best course of action. Do note that Erlina neither confirms nor deny Loghain’s participation or involvement in Anora’s imprisonment.  
 
Up to this point we had no reason to believe that we were being lied to.
 
Fast forward into Howe’s estate and upon the encounter with Ser Cauthrien.
If you choose to surrender Cauthrien’s exact words are: “Bing the wardens, Loghain does not care about the rest.” This was my first red flag.

I was like, "What? Wait a minute; surely if Loghain knew I was rampaging within Howe’s estate, surely he should be concerned about Anora too, if not for her safety, at least her value to him as daughter, queen and voice in the landsmeet."  At the very least if Loghain was involved in Anora being held captive as we were led to believe, wouldn’t  he  have given Ser Cauthrien strict orders to secure Anora in Howe’s estate before anything else is done, no?

 Now if you choose to expose Anora, listen carefully to what is said. Ser Cauthrien immediately dismisses your claim saying that its “...ridiculous. That Arnora isn’t being held prisoner here or anywhere else. Her father would never stand for such a thing.”

That’s my second red flag. It is obvious that Ser Cauthrien orders were simply to apprehend the wardens, it is also obvious that Ser Cauthrien at believes very strongly that Loghain would not harm his own daughter.This contradicts with what Erlina led us to believe.

The last part of this puzzle that bugged me was if you called Anora out.
Ser Cauthrien’s initial shock was obvious.
She really had no idea Anora was there. At which point Anora choose the one course of action that questioned everything Erlina and herself have told you. 

Think for a moment what her possible choices could have been. She could have back you up and had Ser Cauthrien stand down. However if she did so, then questions would arise and she would have to repeat what she told you to Ser Cauthrien or you would have, but with the big difference that now we have Anora there in person, suddenly your claims aren’t as farfetched as it first seemed.
Ser Cauthrien would at the least have to listen and questions would have to be asked. Either way truths would be brought into the light.

Now if Anora was telling the truth, this would have been the right thing to do, and would have given Ser Cauthrien pause. However what if everything Anora had told you was a lie and though she was there on her own as she claimed, it was not to confront Howe but to work something out with Howe to dispose of her own father. Except Howe had his own plans and held her captive and really planned to kill her for his (Howe) own ends. That is why she chose to set Ser Cauthrien on you. I can see no other reason why Anora would risk such a battle if she wasn’t desperate on covering up her lies or preventing questions rising from why she was there in the first place. For one thing, if Cauthrien kills you, she can claim that you were working with Howe and she was there against her will and yes, she did not expect you to survive against Ser Cauthrien.
If you did somehow survive however, she could always say she panicked (which she does) and play the helpless damsel in distress.


All in all even with my first run, there's something about Anora's story and her behaviour from the moment you meet  that nagged at me. She was too eager to secure her throne, even to the extent of spreading her legs in "marriage" to someone she had never before met or known. She's in this for her own benefit boys and girls, nothing more. Do note that even when she agrees to a marriage she wants the power of the throne all to herself and you be relegated to "prince consort" why not suggest to rule as equals, which would have been acceptable to the Bannorn, its not like she's not already  breaking traditions as it is, right?

As for Alister's insistance for killing Loghain, many call it petty revenge, I say its his strong sense and need for justice to be done. He doesn't want to see the Wardens become a cesspool where cast offs, criminals, murderers, rapist take the joining to become wardens in lieu of a death sentence. 

For those who are familiar with George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, Anora  = Cersei Lanister and her equally vapid ideas of political manipulation and the current Wardens = Night-Watch of old when men volunteered and if what Alister fears become real if Loghain is allowed to take the Joining, the Wardens will be what the current day Night-Watch is, men recruited from prisons, and other dregs of society.
Just a few thoughts.

(ehhh what the frak?! They censor the word NightW4tch?)

Modifié par Archonsg, 06 décembre 2009 - 11:42 .