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[Cyberpunk]

Archonsg wrote...

 Wow. It took a bit to read through all ten pages. There's something that everyone seemed to have missed, the very real possibility that Anora lied to you from the very start. I'll get to it in a minute, but before that I'd like to clear up some things first. 
At no point did Loghain threatened to kill Anora. Everyone who posted about how Anora feared for her life essentially got suckered by her when you believed the story she told you, which was based on that lie I was talking about. 

A little background first though. I was bothered by the whole situation at the Arl of Denerim's (Arl Howe's) estate when confronting Ser Cauthrien, which stemmed from a "quest" that started from Erlina, an elven handmaid of Anora's.

Did no one catch just how different Erlina was from other elven servants? Her attitude and bearing is more like an operative, an agent used to working in the background doing “dirty work” if you will,  then a "handmaiden" wouldn't you say?

Accuse her of being a spy and she retorts that she is here for Anora and not for Loghain and that they goals are no longer the same quite heatedly and perhaps letting on more then she should,. Erlina then catches herself and goes on to tell you of Anora's visit to Howe as a queen to demand answers. She claims that Howe isn't subtle while Loghain is, painting Loghain as the "greater" villain here. Erlina then reveals that Arl Howe has locked Anora up away in his estate. 

In her exact words she says “I heard Howe say she would be a greater ally dead than alive. Especially if her death could be blamed on Arl Eamon.”
 
We all assumed that Howe was speaking to Loghain but that will be proved to be a wrong assumption. Erlina listens in as both the PC and Arl Eamon discuss Loghain’s role and the trap which has been sprung, agreeing that no matter what, rescuing Anora whether this is a trap or not would be the best course of action. Do note that Erlina neither confirms nor deny Loghain’s participation or involvement in Anora’s imprisonment.  
 
Up to this point we had no reason to believe that we were being lied to.
 
Fast forward into Howe’s estate and upon the encounter with Ser Cauthrien.
If you choose to surrender Cauthrien’s exact words are: “Bing the wardens, Loghain does not care about the rest.” This was my first red flag.

I was like, "What? Wait a minute; surely if Loghain knew I was rampaging within Howe’s estate, surely he should be concerned about Anora too, if not for her safety, at least her value to him as daughter, queen and voice in the landsmeet."  At the very least if Loghain was involved in Anora being held captive as we were led to believe, wouldn’t  he  have given Ser Cauthrien strict orders to secure Anora in Howe’s estate before anything else is done, no?

 Now if you choose to expose Anora, listen carefully to what is said. Ser Cauthrien immediately dismisses your claim saying that its “...ridiculous. That Arnora isn’t being held prisoner here or anywhere else. Her father would never stand for such a thing.”

That’s my second red flag. It is obvious that Ser Cauthrien orders were simply to apprehend the wardens, it is also obvious that Ser Cauthrien at believes very strongly that Loghain would not harm his own daughter.This contradicts with what Erlina led us to believe.

The last part of this puzzle that bugged me was if you called Anora out.
Ser Cauthrien’s initial shock was obvious.
She really had no idea Anora was there. At which point Anora choose the one course of action that questioned everything Erlina and herself have told you. 

Think for a moment what her possible choices could have been. She could have back you up and had Ser Cauthrien stand down. However if she did so, then questions would arise and she would have to repeat what she told you to Ser Cauthrien or you would have, but with the big difference that now we have Anora there in person, suddenly your claims aren’t as farfetched as it first seemed.
Ser Cauthrien would at the least have to listen and questions would have to be asked. Either way truths would be brought into the light.

Now if Anora was telling the truth, this would have been the right thing to do, and would have given Ser Cauthrien pause. However what if everything Anora had told you was a lie and though she was there on her own as she claimed, it was not to confront Howe but to work something out with Howe to dispose of her own father. Except Howe had his own plans and held her captive and really planned to kill her for his (Howe) own ends. That is why she chose to set Ser Cauthrien on you. I can see no other reason why Anora would risk such a battle if she wasn’t desperate on covering up her lies or preventing questions rising from why she was there in the first place. For one thing, if Cauthrien kills you, she can claim that you were working with Howe and she was there against her will and yes, she did not expect you to survive against Ser Cauthrien.
If you did somehow survive however, she could always say she panicked (which she does) and play the helpless damsel in distress.


All in all even with my first run, there's something about Anora's story and her behaviour from the moment you meet  that nagged at me. She was too eager to secure her throne, even to the extent of spreading her legs in "marriage" to someone she had never before met or known. She's in this for her own benefit boys and girls, nothing more. Do note that even when she agrees to a marriage she wants the power of the throne all to herself and you be relegated to "prince consort" why not suggest to rule as equals, which would have been acceptable to the Bannorn, its not like she's not already  breaking traditions as it is, right?

As for Alister's insistance for killing Loghain, many call it petty revenge, I say its his strong sense and need for justice to be done. He doesn't want to see the Wardens become a cesspool where cast offs, criminals, murderers, rapist take the joining to become wardens in lieu of a death sentence. 

For those who are familiar with George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, Anora  = Cersei Lanister and her equally vapid ideas of political manipulation and the current Wardens = Night-Watch of old when men volunteered and if what Alister fears become real if Loghain is allowed to take the Joining, the Wardens will be what the current day Night-Watch is, men recruited from prisons, and other dregs of society.
Just a few thoughts.

(ehhh what the frak?! They censor the word NightW4tch?)

Very very nice observation. I never thought of Erlina as a possible spy, just some handmaiden that is fanatically loyal. You are right that Anora played us from the start. That is why she goes to jail in the end^_^

[TuringPoint]

I'm pretty sure multiple people have gone with the theory that Anora was lying from the start. I think it's a stretch, but I don't mean to discredit it by saying so. Regardless, I think her reasons to the contrary are well-enough explained in the game to discount this theory, if you are willing to consider the opposite side of the coin for a moment.

She is not a Cersei, in any case.  As much as Martin has a gift for storytelling, and moral ambiguity and darkness, his weakpoint has always been characters with believable motives.  I find Anora very believable.

I think it's pretty well established she seeks power for herself.  Whether her having power would be wrong remains to be seen, as far as I'm concerned.

Modifié par Alocormin, 06 décembre 2009 - 02:52 .

[Xandurpein]

I have never said you cannot construct a story which includes Anora as some archvillian masterminding everything bad in the game, especiall if you get to choose freely when we are to assume that someone is lying or isn't. Being able to dream up conspiracy theory doesn't make it true.

Archonsg wrote...
Did no one catch just how different Erlina was from other elven servants? Her attitude and bearing is more like an operative, an agent used to working in the background doing “dirty work” if you will,  then a "handmaiden" wouldn't you say? 

Um... what can I say. I belive this to be pure conjecture on your part. Even when I listen to it again can't detect anything of what you say. Obviously at least one of us seem to hear what we want to hear, when listening to her, so I don't see how we can argue that point, beyond the fact that we disagree on it.

Archonsg wrote...

She claims that Howe isn't subtle while Loghain is, painting Loghain as the "greater" villain here.

No. All she says is that it is harder to get the truth out  of Loghain. You to assume that this aslo implies a greater
degree of guilt on his part, I do not think there is any such thing being said. I would again please ask people to remember the game logic. Structure dialogs so that too much of the plot is not given up too soon.

Archonsg wrote...
If you choose to surrender Cauthrien’s exact words are: “Bing the wardens, Loghain does not care about the rest.” This was my first red flag. 

I do not want to argue too much either way here. I firmly belive this was primarily a game plot device. Separate the two wardens from the other and then have two more party members stage a jailbreak. Even if your theory is true, it is ridiculous for Ser Cauthrien to let 2 possible culprits free in a house drenched with the blood of Arl Howe's household. I think the developers had a cool idea for a jailbreak scene but implemented it a bit crudely. 

 

Archonsg wrote...
...even to the extent of spreading her legs in "marriage" to someone she had never before met or known.

Apart from the fact that I think your words are crude and misogynic, I only wish to point out that arranged political marriage is an accepted fact in Ferelden, wether among royalty,  nobility or indeed the Alienage. No one is contending that she very much wants the crown for herself. The debate is wether she is a decent politican who strongly believes she is what is best for Ferelden, or a psychopathic mastermind, or maybe something in between.

Archonsg wrote...

That’s my second red flag. It is obvious that Ser Cauthrien orders were simply to apprehend the wardens, it is also obvious that Ser Cauthrien at believes very strongly that Loghain would not harm his own daughter.This contradicts with what Erlina led us to believe.

It is pretty clear that Ser Cauthrien is a very tragic figure in the story. She is an honorable and lrespected knight who is genuinly loyal to Loghain, but is also toubled by Loghain's actions. If you do not kill Ser Cauthrien at Howe's estate you have a chance to persuade her to finally face the error of trusting Loghain. Regardless of wether Loghain did or did not know about Anora beeing inprisoned by Loghain, I think that Ser Cauthrien would not have been able to make herself belive it then, nor do I belive Loghain would have told her.

Personally I am inclined to belive that Howe inprisoned Anora without Loghains consent. Whatever their faults I think it is fairly obvious that Loghain genuinly loves his daughter and Anora genuinly loves her father. That is part of their tragedy. I still think it perfectly reasonable to assume that Anora may think her father may want to see her dead, but I suppose it's not proved either way.

It is an interesting idea that Anora may have tried to convince Howe to help depose Loghain, but it backfired. It is possible to fit it into the story, on the other hand it is obvious that, after the rescue, Anora still have hopes of swaying her father. She says that Howe's death is a good thing and maybe their is still hope for her father. Her actions supports that this is not just lies. She will for example not marry her father's killer, even if politically expedient.

Archonsg wrote...

For those who are familiar with George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, Anora  = Cersei Lanister and her equally vapid ideas of political manipulation and the current Wardens = Night-Watch of old when men volunteered
.

It is true that the developers have used Martin's books as inspiration, but claiming that personalities must match on a level that the actions of one character in the book, can explain the behaviour of a supposed exact counterpart in the game is ridiculous. You may argue to what extent Anora is manipulative and selfish or not, but I find very little in common with her personality and that of Cercei Lanister.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 décembre 2009 - 03:13 .

[cglasgow]

Um, Erlina actually is vastly different from virtually every elven servant you meet in the game. Iona, the two elves working in the kitchen at Castle Cousland, most of the servants in Vaughan's household... they're all humble, they don't look you in the eye, and they definitely don't argue with you. Elves in Ferelden might not be slaves, but they're definitely a second-class minority. Iona in particular is a noteworthy example here: she's promoted very high for an elf, and treated very well by a lenient mistress, and has no real reason to fear losing her place or being punished for sticking up for herself... and she still keeps her head low, and has no more ambition for her daughter than 'Eventually she can have my job. It's a good job! I won't risk losing everything by reaching higher than I should.'



Erlina, otoh? She looks you straight in the eye and lays down exactly how things are going to be. Talking to her is like talking directly to Anora. You're one of the toughest, most heavily-armed people on the entire continent, and she's an unarmed elven serving woman in a dress, and yet she's more aggressive with you than Alistair is.



So yeah, Erlina (who is also from Orlais, let us note) does indeed make me wonder if in Orlais, some elven servants also train as bards.

[tmp7704]

Archonsg wrote...

All in all even with my first run, there's something about Anora's story and her behaviour from the moment you meet  that nagged at me. She was too eager to secure her throne, even to the extent of spreading her legs in "marriage" to someone she had never before met or known. She's in this for her own benefit boys and girls, nothing more. Do note that even when she agrees to a marriage she wants the power of the throne all to herself and you be relegated to "prince consort" why not suggest to rule as equals, which would have been acceptable to the Bannorn, its not like she's not already  breaking traditions as it is, right?

It would be nice if people were able to pick one angle of accusations rather than try all at once. So, Anora sucks because she is willing to rule with a total stranger *and* she sucks even more because she is not willing to give that total stranger full control of the country? How awful of her...

[cglasgow]

The problem with critcizing Anora from only one angle is that she comes off as a bad impression from so many angles.



Really, the woman is the definition of "expedience": whatever it takes to get what she wants, she will not hesitate to do. Even if that means she has to flip-flop back and forth all over the map on odd- and even-numbered days...

[tmp7704]

cglasgow wrote...

The problem with critcizing Anora from only one angle is that she comes off as a bad impression from so many angles.

Really, the woman is the definition of "expedience": whatever it takes to get what she wants, she will not hesitate to do. Even if that means she has to flip-flop back and forth all over the map on odd- and even-numbered days...

But in order to criticize from these many angles the person who is doing the critique has to do the flip-flopping themselves. Which really weakens their point rather than make it stronger as it makes it appear they're in it simply to complain as much as they can all logic be damned.

[cglasgow]

Eh, no, we're being entirely consistent: no matter what choices Anora makes, they're all wrong ones. No flip-flop whatsoever, just a steady drumbeat of 'Anora sucks'.



But seriously, the woman has fewer redeeming features than her father the paranoid regicidal usurper. And even her own father won't give her a good character recommendation. Man, if your own dad can't trust you, how can we?

[Galad22]

Seriously, in this game Anora claims to be efficient and good administrator.

However this game paints her as totally inept ruler. She lets her father snatch power from her, allows Loghain to start a civil war and can't stop him.
Then she is too inept to protect herself enough and ends up as a prisoner in her fathers allys castle and needs us to protect her and rescue her. Then she needs us to safe her throne which shows that she is equally inept at keeping her throne even after her father is dealt with.

She also backstab you frequently if you don't do things exactly as she wants and comes across as somewhat well meaning despot who is in the end only interested in keeping her own power intact. Then if that isn't enough Alistair in the end prooves to be better ruler than her. Which isn't that hard to crasp since Alistair is good and kind man with strong sence of justtice.

Seriously why would anyone ever believe her when she herself claims to be so capable and good ruler, when every evidence in the game suggest that she infact isn't nearly as capable ruler as she herself insists she is.

[tmp7704]

Galad22 wrote...

However this game paints her as totally inept ruler. She lets her father snatch power from her, allows Loghain to start a civil war and can't stop him.
Then she is too inept to protect herself enough and ends up as a prisoner in her fathers allys castle and needs us to protect her and rescue her. Then she needs us to safe her throne which shows that she is equally inept at keeping her throne even after her father is dealt with.

After the Ostagar battle she has no troops she can control, as all the remaining force is loyal to Loghain. What is she supposed to stop him and protect herself with, harsh language?

Nevermind the inconvenient fact that trying to stop Loghain means escalating and prolonging the already going civil war, something Ferelden cannot afford. Even Arl Eamon tells the player before departing to attend the Landsmeet that if Loghain cannot be overthrown there he has no option but to support Loghain so the country can fight the Blight rather than self-destruct.

[Galad22]

tmp7704 wrote...

After the Ostagar battle she has no troops she can control, as all the remaining force is loyal to Loghain. What is she supposed to stop him and protect herself with, harsh language?

Nevermind the inconvenient fact that trying to stop Loghain means escalating and prolonging the already going civil war, something Ferelden cannot afford. Even Arl Eamon tells the player before departing to attend the Landsmeet that if Loghain cannot be overthrown there he has no option but to support Loghain so the country can fight the Blight rather than self-destruct.

How do you know? Certainly she should have some loyal people, or if not what kind of ruler is she again?

And IF she was just able to stop Loghain from fighting his stupid civil  war and stepping down from regency, there would have been no civil at all, and most likely nobility would have followed her happily against blight. Bannorns problem was with Loghain after all not Anora.

[Xandurpein]

Galad22 wrote...

How do you know? Certainly she should have some loyal people, or if not what kind of ruler is she again?

Well, the Royal Army was technically her army, once Cailen was dead, but that army littered the fields of Ostergard...

[tmp7704]

Galad22 wrote...

How do you know? Certainly she should have some loyal people, or if not what kind of ruler is she again?

Her husband King Cailan took the troops loyal to the crown south to fight the darkspawn. They were decimated there when Loghain pulled his own forces out. There might be some skeleton garrisons left to secure Denerim and other such places (though Ferelden doesn't seem to have many cities to begin with) but it's only reasonable to expect everything they could afford to use was used to try to prevent the darkspawn from entering Ferelden in the first place.

And IF she was just able to stop Loghain from fighting his stupid civil  war and stepping down from regency, there would have been no civil at all, and most likely nobility would have followed her happily against blight. Bannorns problem was with Loghain after all not Anora.

And how exactly do you imagine she would do it when he's clearly not willing to step down? Let's say you're in her shoes, how do you go about it? Keep in mind you're not dealing with a sane and reasonable man, but a paranoid who is fully entrenched in position he is the only person who can save Ferelden from the real and imagined threats even if it means the country burns in the process. And everyone who doesn't share his view is a traitor who deserves nothing but death.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 décembre 2009 - 05:28 .

[Galad22]

tmp7704 wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

How do you know? Certainly she should have some loyal people, or if not what kind of ruler is she again?

Her husband King Cailan took the troops loyal to the crown south to fight the darkspawn. They were decimated there when Loghain pulled his own forces out. There might be some skeleton garrisons left to secure Denerim and other such places (though Ferelden doesn't seem to have many cities to begin with) but it's only reasonable to expect everything they could afford to use was used to try to prevent the darkspawn from entering Ferelden in the first place.

And IF she was just able to stop Loghain from fighting his stupid civil  war and stepping down from regency, there would have been no civil at all, and most likely nobility would have followed her happily against blight. Bannorns problem was with Loghain after all not Anora.

And how exactly do you imagine she would do it when he's clearly not willing to step down? Let's say you're in her shoes, how do you go about it? Keep in mind you're not dealing with a sane and reasonable man, but a paranoid who is fully entrenched in position he is the only person who can save Ferelden from the real and imagined threats even if it means the country burns in the process. And everyone who doesn't share his view is a traitor who deserves nothing but death.

No one ever leaves capital city defenseless, ever, so she have some troops, besides she has allies in nobility that would support her and give her troops, at least supposedly, nobility is supposed to respect and like her.

She could also for example talk to Ser Cauthrien, she is somewhat reasonable and she listened us in the end as a PC, why would she not follow her queen? Ser Cauthrien isn't without influence in Loghains own troops surely. I am sure some of Loghains troops would rather follow their queen anyway if she forced them to.

And my point is exactly it, she can't do anything to Loghain. She basically allows him to steal the throne and then can't or won't do nothing about it.  So how is she anything but inept as a ruler if throne is stolen from her so easily, by her own father no less.

[Maria Caliban]

Archonsg wrote...

 Wow. It took a bit to read through all ten pages. There's something that everyone seemed to have missed, the very real possibility that Anora lied to you from the very start.

Someone already came up with an elaborate theory about how Anora lied to you from the start and talked about if for at least two pages. Given that you've read all the pages, I wonder how you missed this.

[Cadarin]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
It's easy to make decisions with meta-game knowledge of what the ending is like. You were asking about RPing and the first playthrough. Anora seems much better and much more competent, especially if you don't betray her. She never betrayed me on my first playthrough at all.

Some of us saw through her deception and realized what a manipulative backstabber she was.  And yeah, she won't betray you if you agree to be her lackey.
The ending leaves no question for who made the better ruler, so I  don't really see how there can be any serious debate.

[Xandurpein]

Well... if loosing means you are inept, then obviously Alistair put his loyalty in the wrong place. Duncan was a very inept leader of the Grey Wardens as his forces were slaughtered at Ostergard.



She loves her father and and it is mentally hard for her to go against him. Indeed, her inability to percieve her fathers true nature is a flaw in her. Then again, I think she is excused as Loghain is a hero of Ferelden. Ser Cauthrien obviously don't want to belive it and even Arl Eamon has a hard time understanding what has possessed Loghain. Making sweeping judgements on Anora's ability to govern a country based on her indeed flawed relationship to Loghain is not fair in my opinion.

[Galad22]

Xandurpein wrote...

Well... if loosing means you are inept, then obviously Alistair put his loyalty in the wrong place. Duncan was a very inept leader of the Grey Wardens as his forces were slaughtered at Ostergard.

She loves her father and and it is mentally hard for her to go against him. Indeed, her inability to percieve her fathers true nature is a flaw in her. Then again, I think she is excused as Loghain is a hero of Ferelden. Ser Cauthrien obviously don't want to belive it and even Arl Eamon has a hard time understanding what has possessed Loghain. Making sweeping judgements on Anora's ability to govern a country based on her indeed flawed relationship to Loghain is not fair in my opinion.

It is when this one flaw almost ends in Fereldens destruction. And she doesn't loose to Loghain at any point she basically hands throne over to Loghain in bloodless coup.

And seriously not very fair against Duncan, how should he had known Loghain would abandon his king in a battlefield. Duncans and Cailans only fault in Ostagar was that they expected Loghain to follow the plan and not desert, it does not make them inept.

Modifié par Galad22, 06 décembre 2009 - 06:31 .

[tmp7704]

Galad22 wrote...

No one ever leaves capital city defenseless, ever, so she have some troops, besides she has allies in nobility that would support her and give her troops, at least supposedly, nobility is supposed to respect and like her.

Yes, which is why i mentioned the city garrison. But you don't realistically expect that force to be able to stand against Loghain's much stronger own troops, do you? He's a teyrn, that means power second only to that of the king

Some nobles certainly could support them, it's not unrealistic expectation. But even then what you get in your hands is just civil war against supposed brilliant tactician, the war that weakens both sides while the darkspawn grows ever stronger and sweeps through your country. Is it actually sensible decision from a ruler to try and escalate such conflict before the darkspawn is dealt with? Or maybe it should be put off until the country is relatively safe?

And my point is exactly it, she can't do anything to Loghain. She basically allows him to steal the throne and then can't or won't do nothing about it.  So how is she anything but inept as a ruler if throne is stolen from her so easily, by her own father no less.

It is not uncommon in our own history for a military leader to usurp power while the rightful leader can't do much about it, that's the risk of having someone (presumably more competent) being in charge of your military. The basic concept of betrayal is the target won't see it coming until it happens. In case of Loghain's betrayal apparently no one in Ferelden saw it coming and some even refuse to believe it long afterwards, so to use this against Anora specifically and say she "allowed him to steal it" isn't very fair, imo. How was she supposed to prevent it?

As for not doing anything -- see above. It is possible she considers it more reasonable to let him assume control so that the darkspawn threat can be dealt with. Obviously the person being her own father is likely to colour her judgement here, too and make her more reluctant to oppose him.

[Magicman10893]

I don't know about all the theories of Anora lying from the start or about Erlina being a spy (although I did accuse her of being a spy in the game), but I can tell that Anora is an evil **** just trying to secure her place as queen. When you are escaping and Cuthrein (or however her name is spelled) stops you, Anora says she is being kidnapped in order to escape and leave her rescuers to fight all those damned guards! Then later on after the Landsmeet when you are deciding who should rule and someone mentions Alistair and he says, "Wait, what!? When did we decide on this?!" and Anora immediately chips in by saying, "See! He just declined the crown in favor of ME!".



That was my red flag right there. I could possibly understand her wanting to escape with her life during the Cuthrein encounter, but the immediate claim that Alistair declined the throne when he stated he didn't know they agreed on him was a real WTF moment.

[Galad22]

tmp7704 wrote...

Yes, which is why i mentioned the city garrison. But you don't realistically expect that force to be able to stand against Loghain's much stronger own troops, do you? He's a teyrn, that means power second only to that of the king

Some nobles certainly could support them, it's not unrealistic expectation. But even then what you get in your hands is just civil war against supposed brilliant tactician, the war that weakens both sides while the darkspawn grows ever stronger and sweeps through your country. Is it actually sensible decision from a ruler to try and escalate such conflict before the darkspawn is dealt with? Or maybe it should be put off until the country is relatively safe?

It is not uncommon in our own history for a military leader to usurp power while the rightful leader can't do much about it, that's the risk of having someone (presumably more competent) being in charge of your military. The basic concept of betrayal is the target won't see it coming until it happens. In case of Loghain's betrayal apparently no one in Ferelden saw it coming and some even refuse to believe it long afterwards, so to use this against Anora specifically and say she "allowed him to steal it" isn't very fair, imo. How was she supposed to prevent it?

As for not doing anything -- see above. It is possible she considers it more reasonable to let him assume control so that the darkspawn threat can be dealt with. Obviously the person being her own father is likely to colour her judgement here, too and make her more reluctant to oppose him.

Civil war is already escalated, bannorn doesn't accept Loghain as a regent and thanks to that Loghain attacks them, if she had spoken at that point against Loghain his allies might have abandoned him. Seriously Loghain and Howe don't have enough troops combined to fight against rest of the ferelden.

And even Loghain would propably pause before attacking his own daughter if Anora would make a stand at any point, not to mention that Fereldan would not at any point follow a man of whose there are rumors that murdered their king and attacked their queen. If ferelden stood united against Loghain he should have to relent, Anora was only one who could possible have done it, but choose to do nothing while Loghain was fighting his civil war.

It is reasonable to let him assume control I agree. But after bannorn demands that he stands down from regency and Loghain starts his civil war, at that point Anora should have tried doing something, 'couse clearly Loghain no longer had best interest of ferelden in his mind at that opoint

[tmp7704]

Galad22 wrote...

Civil war is already escalated, bannorn doesn't accept Loghain as a regent and thanks to that Loghain attacks them, if she had spoken at that point against Loghain his allies might have abandoned him. Seriously Loghain and Howe don't have enough troops combined to fight against rest of the ferelden.

I think at the point the Landsmeet happens it is said Loghain has those opposing him pretty much beaten into submission (there's been few battles against the banns and he bested them every time) So unless i'm mistaken the game itself makes the case Loghain did have the troops (or at least the wits) to get things under his control. It's only the miraculous recovery of Arl Eamon that delays what seems inevitable and then the player's meddling erodes some of Loghain's support.

[Galad22]

tmp7704 wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Civil war is already escalated, bannorn doesn't accept Loghain as a regent and thanks to that Loghain attacks them, if she had spoken at that point against Loghain his allies might have abandoned him. Seriously Loghain and Howe don't have enough troops combined to fight against rest of the ferelden.

I think at the point the Landsmeet happens it is said Loghain has those opposing him pretty much beaten into submission (there's been few battles against the banns and he bested them every time) So unless i'm mistaken the game itself makes the case Loghain did have the troops (or at least the wits) to get things under his control. It's only the miraculous recovery of Arl Eamon that delays what seems inevitable and then the player's meddling erodes some of Loghain's support.

I think I have read somewhere that it takes about a year for our hero to get all the treaties, so it did took time for Loghain to beat Bannorn in the submission. Besides if you listen to rumors there are revolts everywhere and Loghain isn't particularly liked in Ferelden come landsmeet.

Of course I could be wrong about the time inside the game because that really isn't told anywhere.

[Xandurpein]

Magicman10893 wrote...

I don't know about all the theories of Anora lying from the start or about Erlina being a spy (although I did accuse her of being a spy in the game), but I can tell that Anora is an evil **** just trying to secure her place as queen. When you are escaping and Cuthrein (or however her name is spelled) stops you, Anora says she is being kidnapped in order to escape and leave her rescuers to fight all those damned guards! Then later on after the Landsmeet when you are deciding who should rule and someone mentions Alistair and he says, "Wait, what!? When did we decide on this?!" and Anora immediately chips in by saying, "See! He just declined the crown in favor of ME!".

That was my red flag right there. I could possibly understand her wanting to escape with her life during the Cuthrein encounter, but the immediate claim that Alistair declined the throne when he stated he didn't know they agreed on him was a real WTF moment.

Oh well... I'll try to say it one more time. No one (at least not me) is seriously arguing that Anora doesn't want to be Queen. Yes she does! My point is that I belive this in itself does not disqualify her from being a good Queen. It is still perfectly plausible that she also really thinks that she is a much better choice to rule Ferelden than Alistair. She is perfectly honest with you about it.
"I would ask what is better - the gratitude of a weak King or of a strong Queen".
She tells you this squarly, even if she is aware that you know Alistair very well. It would be totally pointless for her to pull something like that off, unless she thought it likely that you, who know him well, shared her feelings.

If she thought she would indeed make a better ruler and discover that Alistair doesn't even want to be a ruler, why on Earth does it make her such a terrible person if she grabs the chance when she sees it? It is Arl Eamon who wants Alistair to be King, and almost tries to coup it! If she really was as scheming as some people here suggest, she would have organized some supporters who would call for her coronation loudly so she could "reluctantly" accept it. That would have been worthy of plotting schemer.

It almost makes me wonder if it is because she is a woman that people have a hard time accepting that she knows what she wants and goes for it, instead of trying to batt her eyelashes to get it.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 06 décembre 2009 - 09:00 .

[Xandurpein]

Another little conversation with Anora at the post-coronation is interesting. When she asks the MC if he is nervous about the wedding, and you choose the reply "I look forward to being King", she answers "Prince consort actually, though the title is a technicality, perhaps".



She has already won the crown, so no need to be shy about it. If she really expect the MC to be a puppet, she certainly misses a chance to put him down. I'm sure those who don't like her interprets this differently, but I hear her saying "You are not going to boss around me, but we can still be equals"