385 réponses à ce sujet

[Krigwin]

tmp7704 wrote...
Hmm let's see.

"It is common knowledge that in the five years Anora and Cailan held the throne, she was the one wielding the power. She is held in much higher esteem than her husband by the people of Ferelden, nobility and commoners alike, and commands the respect even of foreign nations, having once inspired Empres Celene I of Orlais to declare, "Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among brambles.""

wouldn't you say the people who had opportunity to experience her government first hand for multiple years are better suited to judge the quality of said government, than the player who is given the knowledge of just few anecdotes if that?

All that proves is that she was a respected politician, and even I respect her because she's cunning and devious, it doesn't prove anything about the quality of her rule. To judge that, we have to use ingame evidence, and I've already outlined my thoughts on that.

This can be used to form opinion about the player's own character, their ability to judge characters of others (or lack thereof) and maybe their own possible psychopathic tendencies, but very little else. "I've killed for less" as argument presumes the said killing for less was justified in the first place.

And? What's your point? That wasn't my argument for how Anora can be called evil, everything before that was. I was just stating that you certainly have good enough reason to kill her, especially if you pick a path in the game that results in her betraying you.

It almost makes me wonder if it is because she is a woman that people
have a hard time accepting that she knows what she wants and goes for
it, instead of trying to batt her eyelashes to get it.

Hahaha, no. Thanks though for giving me my first real laugh of the day. In fact, I believe it's quite the opposite. If Anora was a man, no one would be trying to pull this "strong woman" nonsense, "she's just an independent woman who knows what she wants and knows how to get it and you're angry because she's smarter than you and you're a jealous sexist!" crap. If Anora was a man, everyone would be pissed off that they got used and betrayed and would be clamoring for "his" execution.

I have no problem with an NPC with realistic goals and motives. I have no problem with allies of convenience. What I do have a problem with is being used and betrayed, and anyone who does this has freely declared themselves as an enemy, and is worthy of only death, nothing more. Everyone else in the game that attempts to play you like a piano you have the option of killing - Zathrian, Branka, etc., and yet with Anora, not only are people not outraged that she uses and abuses you, but are trying desperately to come to her defense and paint this picture of a wily politician that is fighting for her dear life and the only reason people despise her is because she's so misunderstood! It's laughable.

[tmp7704]

Krigwin wrote...

All that proves is that she was a respected politician, and even I respect her because she's cunning and devious, it doesn't prove anything about the quality of her rule. To judge that, we have to use ingame evidence, and I've already outlined my thoughts on that.

Honestly now, can you imagine a situation where people don't like the way their government runs things *but* at the same time hold the said government in high esteem and respect it? I can't really think of anyone who'd say ever "you know X may be running our country into the ground but i just love how ruthless and cunning they are about it." ... can you? And then imagine that opinion held not by a crazy individual but general population of the country?

The opinion of the population provided in the game and coming from characters' mouth *is* ingame evidence. You may not like what it shows but there it is.

And? What's your point? That wasn't my argument for how Anora can be called evil, everything before that was. I was just stating that you certainly have good enough reason to kill her, especially if you pick a path in the game that results in her betraying you.

Your point was she's bad to the point she deserved death. My point was it's just personal opinion and one i disagree with. We just have different threshold of what we consider "evil" and both these opinions are equally meaningless.

[mastersam562]

The opinion of the population provided in the game and coming from characters' mouth *is* ingame evidence. You may not like what it shows but there it is.

Where is this opinion coming from? The the only thing I can recall is one from Eamon saying shes popular, but that could mean anything.

[Darth_Trethon]

WHAT?!! I love Anora.....I seriously wish there was an actual romance with her....but I get to marry her so I guess that counts for something. Seriously though why would you EVER put that whiny good for nothing Alistair on the throne. If you let Loghain live he just goes and drinks his life away in some bar somewhere out of self pity.....yeah those are leadership traits right there. No I don't think so.

Plus she proves to be a perfect ruler for Ferelden so yeah I really don't think there is any other reasonable way to do this.

Much like Bhelen is a much better ruler than Harrowmont. This isn't about personal feelings it's about what's right for the future of Ferelden. Anora.....much like Morrigan....is the perfect example of a strong and amazing woman.

I never let her actually execute Alistair simply because he's not nearly as capable as she thinks he is but I don't begrudge her for that because she just met the dim-witted fool so she can't know. Nor do I begrudge her intent to take him out....from her perspective it's the right thing to do.....and it would be if Alistair had any sort of leadership ability in him.....but he doesn't so it's pointless to risk gaining bad reputation with the people over executing a fool.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 07 décembre 2009 - 05:19 .

[Krigwin]

tmp7704 wrote...
Honestly now, can you imagine a situation where people don't like the way their government runs things *but* at the same time hold the said government in high esteem and respect it? I can't really think of anyone who'd say ever "you know X may be running our country into the ground but i just love how ruthless and cunning they are about it." ... can you? And then imagine that opinion held not by a crazy individual but general population of the country?

The opinion of the population provided in the game and coming from characters' mouth *is* ingame evidence. You may not like what it shows but there it is.

Why not? They could just as readily believe that she doesn't have any real influence over certain situations and don't blame her for the faults of the leadership. Or they could just accept the flaws of medieval society and again don't fault her. I agree, it's a weak argument, but it's not mine, it's the same argument used to defend Anora's poor wartime leadership. Again, can't have it both ways.

And I'm actually starting to wonder what qualifies for "good" ruling in a backwater and primitive nation like Ferelden...

Your point was she's bad to the point she deserved death. My point was it's just personal opinion and one i disagree with. We just have different threshold of what we consider "evil" and both these opinions are equally meaningless.

You may disagree with my opinion but that doesn't change the fact that you do indeed have the ability to kill people in the game for far worse reasons than Anora's given you. That was what I was saying. Whether or not she is evil is a matter of pure opinion... which I actually stated before I even went on to say the above, so I don't even know what you're driving at here.

[Darth_Trethon]

If you read the explanation after the game's end you'll notice that Anora is 100% flawless as a ruler and leads Ferelden into an era of prosperity. If there's one thing that she can NEVER be accused of it's that she drives the country in the dirt.

[Xandurpein]

I still contend that Anora doesn't betray you, at least not unless you betray her first. She will negotiate with you, and if you keep your end of the bargain, she will keep her end. If you choose not to bargain with her, she will readily LIE to achieve her ends if you threaten her power, she is certainly that ruthless to achieve her goals. Lies and betrayal are two different things though. Betrayal implies some sort of agreement to betray.

She asks you to free her from prison, through her servant. At no point does she promise you any reward for it. Arl Eamon states that the main reason you are doing the rescue is to make sure her death isn't pinned on him.

When you find her in the prison, she specifically states that she doesn't wants you to expose her identity. Betray her then and bets are off as far as she is concerned. For all we know she may not yet know why you are rescuing her. She may think Ser Cauthrien (who is one of the really noble persons in her father's entourage) is a safer bet than you if you betray her.

At the Landsmeet she does NOT betray you. She tries to broker a deal with you. If you do not make an allegiance with her, then she will lie about you to the Landsmeet. That may not be a very nice thing to do, but it does not represent a betrayal, as there is simply no agreement for her to betray. At no point does she promise to support you at the Landsmeet, unless you promise to support her.

Someone may contend that there is an implied betrayal of trust as you have saved her life. What must be realized however is that you pretty much forfeit that debt, if you decide to take the crown form her. At least I think that how she reasons, and I can see that.

Krigwin wrote...

They could just as readily believe that she doesn't have any real influence over certain situations and don't blame her for the faults of the leadership. Or they could just accept the flaws of medieval society and again don't fault her. I agree, it's a weak argument, but it's not mine, it's the same argument used to defend Anora's poor wartime leadership. Again, can't have it both ways.

It has been spelled out before: Anora rules for 5 years with Cailen. During that reign Cailen plays with the army and Anora rules the country. They are both reasonably happy with the division of power, and people recognize that she is the one who really rules Ferelden and she gets respect for it. This is what everyone refers to when they say that she has a record of being an effective ruler. It is also in the Codex.

Anora's power is to a certain extent dependant on Cailen's good will, but they have an agreement and it serves them both. Anora gets along fine with her husband and sees no reason to hedge her bets by trying to usurp leadership of the army too. Loghain is a strong man too, but he is also primarily a military leader. He clashes sometimes with Cailen, but not until the Blight does it become a crisis.

Loghain betrays Cailen at Ostergard and then effectively stages a military coup, citing the military crisis. Anora has at this point very few options. She has no army loyal to her. The royal army is dead at Ostergard. She has so far depended on Cailen to deal with military matters. I do not see why everyone thinks that this proves she is incompetent. It simply means that she had a working partnership with Cailen and now he is gone. Maybe she should have seen Loghain's betrayal coming, but NONE saw that coming.

From the moment Loghain stages his military coup and usurps power, Anora has virtually no power left, and cannot really be held accountable for decisions made. Does this really mean that she is such a bad ruler? Is she really such a flawed ruler, because she made a deal with her husband that suited them both about division of power between them, even if it left her exposed when Cailen died?

One thing this debate has teached me is that maybe we should be a bit careful about pinning actions too much on a character, that is primarily there to channel the plot into a manageable number of results. The developers wanted players to experience a cool jailbreak scene, and it is hilarious so lets make sure they end up there.

I am likewise ready to at least partially forgive Alistair. I still contend that it is horrible of him to abandon the country and the Grey Wardens, even if is angry at the MC for pardoning Loghain. But it is necessary for the plot. The whole poignancy of Morrigan's deal is lost with a third Grey Warden. You replace one tank with another and balance is kept. Too bad poor Alistair who up until then tended to be a bit timid, suddenly decided to go berserk on this issue, but that was necessary for the plot.

And in case someone still thinks it was OK by Alistair to abandon the fight because of his tantrum, let me explain this. I am not contending that it is reasonable to think he is justified to be outraged by the decision. I think that is wrong, but it's a matter of opinion. In order to justify him quitting however, you must state in what way, the fact that he quits the fight, helps Ferelden. He weakens the forces that fight the Archdemon for spite. How does that help Ferelden? He choose a self-destructive path that leads nowhere. That may be understandable on a human level, but what good does it do to anyone?

Darth_Trethon wrote...

WHAT?!! I love Anora.....I seriously wish there was an actual romance with her....but I get to marry her so I guess that counts for something.

Haha, me too actually. Whatever may come of that, I will be very disappointed if there is no chance to interact with her in "Return to Ostergard". I don't suppose it will happen, but it would be nice to have her accompany you to Ostergard, if you are married. It could lead to some sensitive moments if she sees you wearing her husbands armor. She actually loved Cailen it seems.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 07 décembre 2009 - 07:32 .

[Darth_Trethon]

Yeah too bad there is no special reaction from NPCs to waring the King's armor. It was something they thought of implementing but decided not to because of resources and all that. At any rate I don't see why anyone would ever blame Anora for what Loghain did. As for her turning on you if you don't agree to side with her....that's just reasonable to expect not to mention completely 100% right...she has proven a good leader and she KNOWS she can hold the country together while it's extremely difficult to see Alistair be anything other than a puppet.



Given the situation Ferelden is in desperate need of strong rulers and only Anora and possibly the PC can do this...I say possibly because some people are really talented at making all the wrong choices so it largely depends on the player and how they developed the PC.

[Archonsg]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

 Wow. It took a bit to read through all ten pages. There's something that everyone seemed to have missed, the very real possibility that Anora lied to you from the very start.

Someone already came up with an elaborate theory about how Anora lied to you from the start and talked about if for at least two pages. Given that you've read all the pages, I wonder how you missed this.

That is the point, the earlier post were dealing with a theory while I thought I had evidence but it seemed that in my haste in posting, I didn't do a good job of explaining it.
Let me clarify.

First think of the situation where Rendon Howe is able to take the queen captive. This in itself presents a whole slew of problems if circumstances aren't right. For example, had Anora made an official royal visit as Queen, wouldn't people in court know and at the very least able to trace her last known whereabouts to Rendon Howe's Estate? This bothered me a bit since even if the queen were to make a "social" visit, as queen, her moments would surely be monitored by nobles, her guardsmen as well as functionaries at court, and someone would know that she went to Howe's estate. Just like any VIP visit, no matter how "informal", such movements cannot go unnoticed, unless she specifically made an effort to be covert, and visited Rendon Howe in secret. This would explain both why and how Howe would be willing to take Anora captive, for he does not care if Anora dies to further his gains within the court. In fact, if he can pin her death on Eamon and find some way to take Loghain out as well, would that not make him the most eligible noble to take the throne?  Which is what probably was why Howe kept her alive, he had to find a way to deal with both Loghain and Eamon and was still formulating a plan before deciding to kill her.

Secondly, the capture and imprisonment of the queen itself means that anyone who is known to be loyal and with the queen at the time had to be neutralized and or silenced and in honesty, considering Howe's methods, I'd expect every one of her "real" handmaidens, ladies in waiting and courtiers that went along with her were killed perhaps after torture or worse. Or do you think Rendon Howe would just take Anora captive and say " I don't need you ...off you go! Go tell everyone I got the queen, I don't care." I certainly don't think so.  Something which Bioware apparently thought we'd pick up and thus gave us the "I don't trust Erlina... it’s a trap" line to follow.
Think about it, if Erlina was in the queen's party, don't you think she should be dead or at the very least, locked up along with Anora. Not running freely around, nor should she know the layout of Howe's estate and to top it off, have uniforms stolen or otherwise ready for you to use had she been "just" a handmaiden as she claimed.

Anyways, I was just pointing out that Erlina's and Anora's story in their involvement in that whole mess isn't the truth from the start.

Sadly perhaps my meta game knowledge, knowing the choices she made if I did certain things might have coloured my feelings towards her character (I do love the character though, just not the person:lol: ) because as Morrigan pointed out early in the game, we all have choices that we can make even though it seems like no choice at all. Anora could have tried to stand Ser Cauthrien down and try to allow the PC to explain things and if that fails then resort to combat, or if it was a diversion she wanted could have begged the PC to fight on her behalf so that she could escape in the confusion, instead she choose to lie about the PC and claimed he/she kidnapped her forcing combat on false pretence. Perhaps my examples aren’t the best but all I am saying is that given that particular situation there were so many other plausible choices that she could have made but she choose the one choice that did not quite paint her in the best of light. And that tells us quite a bit about her character does it not?
Oh one last thing, I do not believe that Anora had all this planned out. She seems more a reactive schemer then someone who had layers upon layers of planning and deception in the works. She probably had something up her sleeve only to have Howe stick a dagger into her back and it went downhill for her from then on. (or at least in my game play, *always*)

Xandurpein wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

For those who are familiar with George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, Anora  = Cersei Lanister and her equally vapid ideas of political manipulation and the current Wardens = Night-Watch of old when men volunteered
.

It is true that the developers have used Martin's books as inspiration, but claiming that personalities must match on a level that the actions of one character in the book, can explain the behaviour of a supposed exact counterpart in the game is ridiculous. You may argue to what extent Anora is manipulative and selfish or not, but I find very little in common with her personality and that of Cercei Lanister.

Uh I think you misunderstood me. I was just pointing out what I thought were similarities from Martin’s character and the ones here.  Which is actually closer then I think you give credit for. Loghain for example sounds a lot like Tywin Lannister, which as in the book took control from Cersei even though Cersei was Queen.  The only thing missing here is Jeoffry and an imp of a brother.

Modifié par Archonsg, 07 décembre 2009 - 09:38 .

[Darth_Trethon]

Regardless of the conspiracy theories some like to build around Anora she is a great ruler and did a great deal of good for Ferelden....more than anyone could hope for really....the ending slides make that much extremely clear. So you think that maybe she was secretly evil and ate kittens for breakfast and puppies for dinner and whatever else you may dream of. The fact remains she is NOT a character from another book regardless of some similarities and anything implying otherwise is ridiculous.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 07 décembre 2009 - 09:50 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

And in case someone still thinks it was OK by Alistair to abandon the fight because of his tantrum, let me explain this. I am not contending that it is reasonable to think he is justified to be outraged by the decision. I think that is wrong, but it's a matter of opinion. In order to justify him quitting however, you must state in what way, the fact that he quits the fight, helps Ferelden. He weakens the forces that fight the Archdemon for spite. How does that help Ferelden? He choose a self-destructive path that leads nowhere. That may be understandable on a human level, but what good does it do to anyone?

I consider taking Loghain as weakining Fereldens forces and taking huge and very stupid risks.



Note that Alistar has no clue about GW's being needed to kill the archdemon, so one man more or less won't matter in the end. That is a very reasonable assumption, so his decision at the time is sound. Of course, gutting the PC like a pig would also be a reasonable response given the situation.

[Apophis2412]

She seems to be much like Bhelen. Morrally corrupt,Machiavellian and perhaps even evil, but she does get the job done.

[Archonsg]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Regardless of the conspiracy theories some like to build around Anora she is a great ruler and did a great deal of good for Ferelden....more than anyone could hope for really....the ending slides make that much extremely clear. So you think that maybe she was secretly evil and ate kittens for breakfast and puppies for dinner and whatever else you may dream of. The fact remains she is NOT a character from another book regardless of some similarities and anything implying otherwise is ridiculous.

Read my post I said nothing of the sort.
Nor am I saying that she IS a character from another book. 
Don't let your enthusiasm blind you man. (or woman, if that is the case)

My particular dislike with Anora's character stems from her lies against the player and Arl Eamon. Even at the Landsmeet, when she made the choice to side with her father she could have tried to use the truth to sway the nobles, like I donnno, remind them of her father's heroism and ability, played her role as queen and oh maybe harp on that great governing ability while throwing her full support behind her father. Perhaps even pull a tear jerker and remind everyone present that she as Callian' wife and queen would know her husband's heart and believed that both Callian and Maric would have wanted Loghain in control (gotta admit, that would have been a great speech ), but no, she seems to delight in the use of falsehoods.

That’s why I won't support her more than the one time I wanted to see what her ending as Queen was. I do detest people who see lies and untruths as the most expedient of means to an end.

Modifié par Archonsg, 07 décembre 2009 - 10:39 .

[Xandurpein]

Archonsg wrote...

Secondly, the capture and imprisonment of the queen itself means that anyone who is known to be loyal and with the queen at the time had to be neutralized and or silenced and in honesty, considering Howe's methods, I'd expect every one of her "real" handmaidens, ladies in waiting and courtiers that went along with her were killed perhaps after torture or worse. Or do you think Rendon Howe would just take Anora captive and say " I don't need you ...off you go! Go tell everyone I got the queen, I don't care." I certainly don't think so. Something which Bioware apparently thought we'd pick up and thus gave us the "I don't trust Erlina... it’s a trap" line to follow.

This may not be a very satisfying reply, but I honestly think that you are reading too much into what may be nothing more than a few holes in the story the developers didn't think about. It's not like it would be the first time in the story.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 07 décembre 2009 - 11:33 .

[Archonsg]

Xandurpein wrote...

Archonsg wrote...

Secondly, the capture and imprisonment of the queen itself means that anyone who is known to be loyal and with the queen at the time had to be neutralized and or silenced and in honesty, considering Howe's methods, I'd expect every one of her "real" handmaidens, ladies in waiting and courtiers that went along with her were killed perhaps after torture or worse. Or do you think Rendon Howe would just take Anora captive and say " I don't need you ...off you go! Go tell everyone I got the queen, I don't care." I certainly don't think so. Something which Bioware apparently thought we'd pick up and thus gave us the "I don't trust Erlina... it’s a trap" line to follow.

This may not be a very satisfying reply, but I honestly think that you are reading too much into what may be nothing more than a few holes in the story the developers didn't think about. It's not like it would be the first time in the story.

Probably.
But it still doesn't change the fact that it was one of the few things I noticed on the first play through and wondered why is everyone defending Anora so.

Which is why essentially, as I posted above, my issues with Anora isn't what she did or didn't do, she may have been telling the truth all along, but because of her choice to use untruths against me when she could have chosen otherwise made me question her every word and motives. Perhaps this is what the devs wanted with her character, though I am sure other players will feel differently depending on their point of view or what they see as acceptable behaviour.

To me her use of untruths against me is a form of backstabbing, while I would have understood, accepted and perhaps respected her and thought of her as the better ruler if she had chosen to be more "honorable".
In my books, the choice between Anora who lied to win, against Allisters need for justice and protecting the Warden's legacy and honor to the point of selfishness, the choice was an easy one. If I could, I would have gladly taken Anora's head off, but it wasn't a choice given to me.  

[Xandurpein]

Archonsg wrote...

Which is why essentially, as I posted above, my issues with Anora isn't what she did or didn't do, she may have been telling the truth all along, but because of her choice to use untruths against me when she could have chosen otherwise made me question her every word and motives. Perhaps this is what the devs wanted with her character, though I am sure other players will feel differently depending on their point of view or what they see as acceptable behaviour.

I have no objection to your reasoning Archonsg. I choose differently, but I can understand why someone else would choose like you did. I only object when people argue about "the truth" of Anora, claiming they know how supposedly rotten she really is inside. As long as we  agree it is personal choice I accept that others think differently.

Archonsg wrote...

But it still doesn't change the fact that it was one of the few things I noticed on the first play through and wondered why is everyone defending Anora so.

I think you stumbled upon the answer there. I tried to put it into one of my very first posts on this thread. We all get different experiences, depending on which choices we make. In my first run I figured Anora was the Queen and Alistair never wanted to be King anyway. I kept my end of the bargain with Anora and she did too. I ended up marrying Anora and was quite charmed by her, while Alistairs tantrum left a very sour taste in my mouth. However many times we play, I think it's the results of the first game that sticks in your mind.

To be honest I am not really saying Anora is a Queen of Virtue. Few people do. She is a tough cookie, but I just don't accept all the "Anora is an evil scheming b***h that must die!" bashers.

The more I think about Alistair, the harder it is to pin him down I realize, simply because he is in the end not just one person. No other character is as influenced by your decisions as he is. It is literally up to you whether he ends up a King who can finally learn to assume some responsibility, or a self-destructive dropout.

With hindsight I can manipulate events at the Landsmeet to avoid loosing Alistair and still behave as my character deemed right, but at my first play I thought it obvious that I should duel Loghain myself, and then I couldn't for the life of me break the rules of the duel and refuse Loghains surrender. Nor did I feel it was my place to question Riordan's solution. He was after all much my senior in the Grey Wardens. I felt I would have walked all over my character's sense of honor and duty. So I got Alistair the obsessive and self-destructive, instead of Alistair the good and responsible.

It seems to be a recurring theme of the game. Bad things can happen from good intentions and every choice comes with a price. You have to learn to live with it.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 07 décembre 2009 - 02:20 .

[Archonsg]

Xandurpein wrote...


I think you stumbled upon the answer there. I tried to put it into one of my very first posts on this thread. We all get different experiences, depending on which choices we make. In my first run I figured Anora was the Queen and Alistair never wanted to be King anyway. I kept my end of the bargain with Anora and she did too. I ended up marrying Anora and was quite charmed by her, while Alistairs tantrum left a very sour taste in my mouth. However many times we play, I think it's the results of the first game that sticks in your mind.

I think you got it there.
What was that saying after all, "First Impressions count."
It was perhaps my noticing those little inconsistencies with Anora’s and Erlinda’s story whether it was intentional or not on Bioware’s part made me question their honour, and thus coloured my view of both from that point on, no matter how many times I re-play the game while those who didn’t or are able to accept at face value had no problems and perceived Anora’s character in a better light.

It’s the same for Allister. While many saw his “hissy” fit as a tantrum, I saw instead his disgust and fear that they would forsake the honour and legacy of the grey wardens and instead use the joining as a form of capital punishment. To him, I believed he thought along  the line where if you start doing this with Loghain, where does it end? Do anything to succeed right, so since the wardens are in dire need of new recruits, when will they start administering the joining to all murderers on death row, what about rapists, or child killers, or hey how about bloodmage slavers who would willingly take a few lives hell, why stop there, why not take anyone as long as they are able to “improve” the combat powers of the Wardens?

The way I saw it, Allister drew the line, and yet to many others, it was a totally different thing. Why? Because Anora first voiced his selfishness in so choosing justice versus expedience for her father? Had Allister been better in expressing himself or had he been more eloquent would it have changed things? Perhaps, but that was how Bioware made his character and perhaps because of my earlier taint in my perspective towards Anora, I had a different view of Allister’s decision at the landsmeeet.

Don't you just love Bioware and this game they made?

[Original182]

Both Alistair and Anora turn out to be good rulers. But Anora has one blemish. During a food shortage, she came down hard on the Alienage.

[Cyberpunk]

Original182 wrote...

Both Alistair and Anora turn out to be good rulers. But Anora has one blemish. During a food shortage, she came down hard on the Alienage.

AND for some odd reason puts up a statue of her father in front of the Orleis embassy. That is as smart as putting a statue of Stalin in front of the German embassy.

[Darth_Trethon]

Original182 wrote...

Both Alistair and Anora turn out to be good rulers. But Anora has one blemish. During a food shortage, she came down hard on the Alienage.

No that is NOT true. Alistair turn out "popular" with the people for constantly going around and waving at people even though he never gets involved in governing. Basically Alistair does exactly nothing as King.

[tmp7704]

Krigwin wrote...

Why not? They could just as readily believe that she doesn't have any real influence over certain situations and don't blame her for the faults of the leadership. Or they could just accept the flaws of medieval society and again don't fault her.

Except the game does state quite explicitly they believe she is the one who wields the power and does the ruling, which goes rather directly against this theory? 

And of course her ability to rule is judged by the "medieval" standards. It's by these standards she's seen as good ruler and respected for it. To require more from her would be about as fair as to judge quality of our own government systems by the standards of oh say, 26th Century.

[Original182]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Original182 wrote...

Both Alistair and Anora turn out to be good rulers. But Anora has one blemish. During a food shortage, she came down hard on the Alienage.

No that is NOT true. Alistair turn out "popular" with the people for constantly going around and waving at people even though he never gets involved in governing. Basically Alistair does exactly nothing as King.

Yes but people are still happy with him. Him going around waving at people is good enough for the people. He also handled the Alienage situation properly.

Alistair had 0 problems in his epilogue, but Anora had 1. Therefore, Alistair is the better ruler all along.

[tmp7704]

Archonsg wrote...

as Morrigan pointed out early in the game, we all have choices that we can make even though it seems like no choice at all. Anora could have tried to stand Ser Cauthrien down and try to allow the PC to explain things and if that fails then resort to combat, or if it was a diversion she wanted could have begged the PC to fight on her behalf so that she could escape in the confusion, instead she choose to lie about the PC and claimed he/she kidnapped her forcing combat on false pretence. Perhaps my examples aren’t the best but all I am saying is that given that particular situation there were so many other plausible choices that she could have made but she choose the one choice that did not quite paint her in the best of light. And that tells us quite a bit about her character does it not?

Something to keep on mind perhaps, the NPCs in the game operate at certain disadvantage compared to the player -- they have no knowledge there's perfect safety net for even the most stupid decisions one could make that's the save/load mechanics, and they also do not have the player's sense of immortality that stems from it. This can colour their decisions because as far as the NPC is concerned, if they screw things but once, the results can be permanently fatal. Player will be much quicker to scream "DEATH FIRST" when they know they can immediately rewind time shall that turn out badly and indeed end in their death.

And in this particular example i'm not sure if Anora has faith left in the player to go with such route. I mean, she just asked the player not to reveal her presence and this request went completely ignored. There isn't much reason to expect a request to fight to cover her escape is going to work any better (what if the player instead tries to use her as token to bargain their own way out?) and so she actively shapes the events in manner that best suit her rather than leave it to the others and hope it turns out ok.

[Cyberpunk]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Original182 wrote...

Both Alistair and Anora turn out to be good rulers. But Anora has one blemish. During a food shortage, she came down hard on the Alienage.

No that is NOT true. Alistair turn out "popular" with the people for constantly going around and waving at people even though he never gets involved in governing. Basically Alistair does exactly nothing as King.

To clarify Hardened Alistair turns into an effective ruler that is also popular. He visits the common folk a lot while studying the art of governance to the best of his abilities. And in the Epilogue it says he is an effective governor and nominates Valandrian to be a representative in the council.

Unhardened Alistair is an extremely popular ruler that is known as the "king with the common touch." He also avoids racial tensions by appointing Valandrian to the council.

[Darth_Trethon]

Some of you are trying to pass Alistair's inaction for good leadership when the fact remains he IS incompetent. You can say Anora had one negative but mistakes are inevitable when you seek progress and she DID a lot as queen....the positive results of her actions far outweigh the negative as well as Alistair's incompetence. All in all Anora is the only reasonable choice for the throne.