385 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

What Allistairs incompetence? Proof or it didn't happen (and it didn't).



Really, quit trolling allready.

[Darth_Trethon]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What Allistairs incompetence? Proof or it didn't happen (and it didn't).

Really, quit trolling allready.

Actually he acts like a fool and stumbles over every word and then the endgame description clearly says he didn't do anything as a ruler......except visit common people. He clearly ADMITTED he had no clue how to be a King or what to do with the position and it was 100% true. He did nothing to rebuild and restore the country after the blight. That right there is more than enough proof of being incompetent.....he had no clue what to do with his position so he did nothing.

If anything you'd be the one to need proof of competence. Proof that he did more that zero.....and no appointing one person doesn't actually count as doing something.

Anora on the other hand worked tirelessly to rebuild the country. She DID know what to do with her position and served Ferelden very well.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 07 décembre 2009 - 09:56 .

[Cyberpunk]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What Allistairs incompetence? Proof or it didn't happen (and it didn't).

Really, quit trolling allready.

Actually he acts like a fool and stumbles over every word and then the endgame description clearly says he didn't do anything as a ruler......except visit common people. He clearly ADMITTED he had no clue how to be a King or what to do with the position and it was 100% true. He did nothing to rebuild and restore the country after the blight. That right there is more than enough proof of being incompetent.....he had no clue what to do with his position so he did nothing.

If anything you'd be the one to need proof of competence. Proof that he did more that zero.....and no appointing one person doesn't actually count as doing something.

Anora on the other hand worked tirelessly to rebuild the country. She DID know what to do with her position and served Ferelden very well.

You still never answered the question. You are just saying examples of why he may appear not to be a good choice for king. But once on the throne, he is very competent.

[Xandurpein]

[quote]Archonsg wrote...

Don't you just love Bioware and this game they made?/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png
[/qoute]

Indeed! I think it's a tribute to Bioware that managed to make this
game so amazingly involving. You really care about the characters in
the game.

I am content to leave further debate if Anora or Alistair was in fact the better ruler or not to others. I would only
rehash old arguments. I think that evidence suggests they both had good sides and bad sides, and it is really a matter of personal opinion, rather than hard facts, which of them should be valued higher.

As for the choice between Alistair and Loghain, I think that part of the problem is the game logic. If it was up to me I would try to talk Alistair into letting Loghain live, but lock him up and face a fair trial for his actions. The game forces you to choose between two extremes. I can understand the game logic, but you are effectivly prohibitied from advocating what I think would be a fair result. Either slaughter a man who surrendered in cold blood or let him join the Grey Wardens and be a hero.

I would like to finish with one final thought about Anora's relationship with the MC. If you play it so you
marry Anora, get Loghain join the Grey Wardens, and then let Loghain take the final blow (no Dark Ritual), then I think that Anora's attitude at the post-coronation simply doesn't add up if she wants to use dupe the MC and use him as her lackey.

She has the perfect chance to set herself up as the only real authority in the land, by downplaying the players efforts and instead give her father all the credit. He killed the Archdemon after all, not the MC. Instead she publicly gives the MC most of the credit and still seems interested in some sort of fair division of power. I may reading too much into it, the game has to give the player his/her sense of  triumph of course, but to me it still indicates that Anora can be trusted to keep a deal, even if she will have few restraints when dealing with those she percieves as enemies. But as before, that is just my personal opinion of course.

And thank you Archonsg (and others) for a helping make this contructive. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/happy.png[/smilie]

/Edit Meh, something funny with quotes I can't change

Modifié par Xandurpein, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:03 .

[Cyberpunk]

You do know that you are the most powerful threat to her power in the end right? And should she renegade on her promise to marry you, she will have the powerful Cousland family plus Redcliffe army against her.



Keep in mind that Denerim's troops have been massacred. The royal army is basically no more in the end and Anora relies on the Arls and Banns for support. Basically she is queen in name but has no army yet. So she has to keep her end of the deal or basically risk another civil war.

[Xandurpein]

She still have a great opportunity to hand as much glory as possible to her father, but she doesn't.

[Darth_Trethon]

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

You still never answered the question. You are just saying examples of why he may appear not to be a good choice for king. But once on the throne, he is very competent.

Competent at doing nothing....anyone can excell at that. You still have absolutely no reasons for why he qualifies to be calle a "good" king. I gave plenty of examples of how incompetent he is. Sorry but it takes A LOT more than visiting paesants to be called a good ruler. All we know is that he didn't get involved in governing.....so basically he's nothing more than a public figure....we do not know who made the real decisions....military, economic.....etc.....you know the ones that require something other than wasting time waving.

[Original182]

Darth_Trethon wrote...
Competent at doing nothing....anyone can excell at that. You still have absolutely no reasons for why he qualifies to be calle a "good" king. I gave plenty of examples of how incompetent he is. Sorry but it takes A LOT more than visiting paesants to be called a good ruler. All we know is that he didn't get involved in governing.....so basically he's nothing more than a public figure....we do not know who made the real decisions....military, economic.....etc.....you know the ones that require something other than wasting time waving.

If he is competent at being nothing, then the population wouldn't like him. But they do. That's all that matters, that the population is happy. As long as the people like him, he is a "good" enough king.

If Alistair truly was incompetent and a bad king, wouldn't the population hate him? Wouldn't the nobles start civil wars, which Anora claimed would happen due to opportunists? But all that didn't happen. No one objected to Alistair being king. Maybe the Calenhad bloodline is all that it takes to make Ferelden happy.

And Alistair doesn't have to do everything by himself. He has Arl Eamon as his advisor, who can then train him to run the country well. Obviously based on the epilogue, the country has been run well with ZERO blemishes.

And besides, concerning the Mac Tir party, enough is enough and it's time for a change. It is because of the same old Loghain policies that turned the country into the mess it is today. It's time for a change, and Alistair is there to change the way the country is run. Proof of change is how he treats the city elves like people. Unlike Anora, who still treats them like second-class citizens, clearly following in the example of his father Loghain, who would sell them to the Telvinter for money.

Anora is more of the same, and we're not talking about the "good" same.

Modifié par Original182, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:29 .

[Cyberpunk]

Xandurpein wrote...

She still have a great opportunity to hand as much glory as possible to her father, but she doesn't.

Because she has to deal with you. And if you sense hostility in her, you will act against her. Like having Zevran slip something into her food everyday...

[Darth_Trethon]

Original182 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...
Competent at doing nothing....anyone can excell at that. You still have absolutely no reasons for why he qualifies to be calle a "good" king. I gave plenty of examples of how incompetent he is. Sorry but it takes A LOT more than visiting paesants to be called a good ruler. All we know is that he didn't get involved in governing.....so basically he's nothing more than a public figure....we do not know who made the real decisions....military, economic.....etc.....you know the ones that require something other than wasting time waving.

If he is competent at being nothing, then the population wouldn't like him. But they do. That's all that matters, that the population is happy. As long as the people like him, he is a "good" enough king.

If Alistair truly was incompetent and a bad king, wouldn't the population hate him? Wouldn't the nobles start civil wars, which Anora claimed would happen due to opportunists? But all that didn't happen. No one objected to Alistair being king. Maybe the Calenhad bloodline is all that it takes to make Ferelden happy.

And Alistair doesn't have to do everything by himself. He has Arl Eamon as his advisor, who can then train him to run the country well. Obviously based on the epilogue, the country has been run well with ZERO blemishes.

And besides, concerning the Mac Tir party, enough is enough and it's time for a change. It is because of the same old Loghain policies that turned the country into the mess it is today. It's time for a change, and Alistair is there to change the way the country is run. Proof of change is how he treats the city elves like people. Unlike Anora, who still treats them like second-class citizens, clearly following in the example of his father Loghain, who would sell them to the Telvinter for money. Anora is more of the same, and we're not talking about the "good" same.

People are happy for seeing him. It's not like they have internet and TV to keep them informed of political matters. They see the King and act like "wow he took time to wave at me what a great guy" while little do they know he does nothing. We KNOW he does NOT govern.....that makes him the equivalent of a movie star in today's terms....but who does? You don't know, none of us do.....for all we know the orlesians do and are bidding their time to get the country where they want to stage a coup from within......Alistair wouldn't know the difference.

The whole part about "people are happy so he's good" is BS because the "common" people like him....you know the ones who are usually unaware and uneducated....the paesants. An oblivious king is the worse possible one to have.

Anora rules herself and the explanation is filled of descriptions of her making important decisions....the kind that real queens make...to secure the future of Ferelden. She is deffinitely NOT the same as that fool good-for nothing Alistair.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:35 .

[Cyberpunk]

Hardened Alistair still is a better ruler than Anora. And Unhardened Alistair is the more popular one and more or less equal to Anora by herself. Plus news travels fast in Ferelden, so people do know about Alistair's actions. All those gossips in towns and whatnot.

Anora does very poor in foreign relations. And she is a tyrant to the City Elves.

Alistair has everyone happy and Ferelden's future looking bright.

Modifié par kooaznboi1088, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:42 .

[Darth_Trethon]

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

Hardened Alistair still is a better ruler than Anora. And Unhardened Alistair is the more popular one. Plus news travels fast in Ferelden, so people do know about Alistair's actions. All those gossips in towns and whatnot.

What actions? You still can't tell me a single thing of notice he did.....you are fuessing they know....when the fact is that they don't likely have a mail system in place....espcially since the country was torn by war. Then with all the troops lost and/or diverted from law enforcement the roads are still extremely dangerous to travel.....bandits and such. So where exactly do you get the "news travels fast" bit? The most they get are rumors and wildly distorted stories of survivors and random witnesses or battles and events and such not of decisions made in the royal palace. Then account that only some decisions are made public even locally.

[Darth_Trethon]

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

Anora does very poor in foreign relations. And she is a tyrant to the City Elves.

Alistair has everyone happy and Ferelden's future looking bright.

Anora made one decision to suppress crime that hurt the elves....that hardly makes her a "tyrant"....it's not like she enslaved or indiscriminately kill them. Mind not over exagerating things? You are grasping at straws to defend Alistair when there is absolutely nothing that is worth defending......he did nothing....he did not rule.

[Cyberpunk]

So if a leader goes in and massacres a minority population and insults a foreign nation, you would call that a good leader? No.

If a leader is very popular and does fairly well in governing. Than is he a good leader? Yes.

And the epilogue is 1 paragraph long. It does not say much about what happened. So you cannot really expect me to provide information that cannot be determined. Just know that everyone is happier with Alistair.

News does travel fast and even though they may be distorted, they travel fast. And the fact that Alistair remains popular after all the twisting of facts shows even more promise in his reign.

So you shoudn't keep making things up about Anora being better.

And btw, it says in the epilogue that Alistair is a good ruler, just to let you know.

Modifié par kooaznboi1088, 08 décembre 2009 - 10:55 .

[Darth_Trethon]

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

So if a leader goes in and massacres a minority population and insults a foreign nation, you would call that a good leader? No.

If a leader is very popular and does fairly well in governing. Than is he a good leader? Yes.

And the epilogue is 1 paragraph long. It does not say much about what happened. So you cannot really expect me to provide information that cannot be determined. Just know that everyone is happier with Alistair.

News does travel fast and even though they may be distorted, they travel fast. And the fact that Alistair remains popular after all the twisting of facts shows even more promise in his reign.

So you shoudn't keep making things up about Anora being better.

And btw, it says in the epilogue that Alistair is a good ruler, just to let you know.

Anora did NOT masacre anyone....she went in to enforce more laws and restriction to combat crime.

Alistair did NOT govern anything....it is CLEARLY specified he stayed OUT of  governing.

Survivors and witnesses of random events that provide distorted accounts do NOT count as "news"

YOU are the one making things up....I have CLEAR in game details that SHOW what Anora did which is a lot more than the nothing shown about alistair beyond the fact he did not govern.

[Original182]

Darth_Trethon wrote...
People are happy for seeing him. It's not like they have internet and TV to keep them informed of political matters. They see the King and act like "wow he took time to wave at me what a great guy" while little do they know he does nothing. We KNOW he does NOT govern.....that makes him the equivalent of a movie star in today's terms....but who does? You don't know, none of us do.....for all we know the orlesians do and are bidding their time to get the country where they want to stage a coup from within......Alistair wouldn't know the difference.

From the epilogue, we know that he is unwilling to govern, but that doesn't mean he doesn't govern AT ALL. He doesn't like it, but he still does it. And again, he doesn't need to do everything. He has great reliable advisors like Arl Eamon to help him.

As for Orlesians bidding their time to attack Ferelden, that is entering hypothetical waters. From the epilogue, Anora is more likely to provoke Orlesians attacking Ferelden by erecting a statue of her father in front of their embassy. Yes, that is good foreign policy isn't it?

And in the case that the Orlesians do attack, Alistair is a proven soldier who knows how to lead, and who helped defeat the Archdemon. Anora's best accomplishment during a war is being locked up in Arl Howe's house. Alistair is better at military defence.

Your only argument that Alistair is a bad king is merely because you don't like his personality, that he stumbles in his speech, etc. Even using popularity as an argument, Alistair still wins. The people are happy with him.

The whole part about "people are happy so he's good" is BS because the "common" people like him....you know the ones who are usually unaware and uneducated....the paesants. An oblivious king is the worse possible one to have.

It is precisely that Alistair is common, that he is the better ruler. He knows what it's like to live as a commoner. He knows what's it like to suffer as a commoner. Because he knows first hand the injustice and difficulties facing commoners, he would take steps to correct it.

People like Anora probably never had to do anything without maids helping her, she probably even have them bathe for her. What would Anora know about the plight of commoners, and people like Goldana who has to feed 5 children?

Anora rules herself and the explanation is filled of descriptions of her making important decisions....the kind that real queens make...to secure the future of Ferelden. She is deffinitely NOT the same as that fool good-for nothing Alistair.

Again, in Alistair's epilogue, despite him not willing to govern, the people are still happy with him. He is also a good ruler, who is humble enough to listen to his advisor Arl Eamon.

Conclusion, Alistair is actually the better ruler.

[Cyberpunk]

Hardened Alistair was a better ruler than Anora okay? The game said he was a good ruler while avoiding racial tensions. And unhardened Alistiar had Wynne and Eamon as advisors while maintaining a reputation as "The King with the Common Touch."



Check your caps lock it seems to be a little broken.

[Darth_Trethon]

Where does it say he governs? I want a quote other than the one he does NOT govern. Stop creating arguments out of thin air. Tell me of ONE decision he made for that country beyond taking 5 minutes to appoint someone else.....what did Alistair DO?



NOTHING.,...that's what.

[Original182]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Where does it say he governs? I want a quote other than the one he does NOT govern. Stop creating arguments out of thin air. Tell me of ONE decision he made for that country beyond taking 5 minutes to appoint someone else.....what did Alistair DO?

NOTHING.,...that's what.

file:///D:/Users/owner/Documents/BioWare/Dragon%20Age/Screenshots/User/Screenshot20091207190529664.jpgfile:///D:/Users/owner/Documents/BioWare/Dragon%20Age/Screenshots/User/Screenshot20091207190529664.jpg

In the months that followed his coronation, Alistair proved to be the king... if largely unwilling to involve himself in matters of governing. He traveled often, making appearances in towns throughout Ferelden to the great delight of the commoners. They referred to him as a king with the "common touch", even if a few knew it was a simple aversion to life at court.

Keywords are "largely unwilling" and "simple aversion". Neither says he does not govern. It just says that he doesn't like governing. And he doesn't need to do everything. Arl Eamon can advise him. As long as the country is run well and the people are happy, that's all it matters.

Yes, appointing the local elder takes 5 minutes, yet it's something Anora can never do. That actually speaks volumes about Anora's capability. You can't spare 5 minutes to treat elves like people?

Modifié par Original182, 08 décembre 2009 - 11:24 .

[Darth_Trethon]

Anora aptly led ferelden for over 5 years and has all the nobles....except eamon....blieve in her. She does her job and a grand thing at that unlike Alistair. Alistair is a public figure.....gray warden who was in a fight against the blight and archdemon....more or less the equivalent of today's superstars. It still says nothing about what he did....except "mostly" not rule.....sure never made a noteworthy decision in his life....except deciding to NOT rule....that was only his job....I'm sure he decided for himself what kind of sanwitches he wanted....tough choices....ham or beacon.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 08 décembre 2009 - 11:32 .

[Chalenheri]

for the unhardened:
He spent a lot of time traveling the country...
He spent little time in Denerim, because he did not like ruling

as for his direct actions:
He reestablished the grey wardens
He helped the city elves

For being a good ruler you do not need to do everything on your own. With Wynne and Eamon by his side, Alistair has capable help whom he can trust. We do not know what they do during Alistairs travelling!

We do know, that the Darkspawn will be back and Ferelden will need to be able to defend itself again.

I'm really interested, what Anora will do when she's alone (with the hero having sacrificed himself at the end and Alistair in exile/dead) and compare it to what will happen, if she has the hero/ a hardened Alistair by her side.

Modifié par Chalenheri, 08 décembre 2009 - 11:37 .

[Ariella]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Anora aptly led ferelden for over 5 years and has all the nobles....except eamon....blieve in her. .

Anora didn't lead the country for five years. Cailan did, she worked behind the scenes as an administrator.

Plus as soon as Daddy seizes power she shows absolultely no true leadship ability. There's a big difference between being a good leader and a good bureacrat (Anora's the latter)

If she'd had all the nobles beliving in her (and not Daddy) why didn't she stand up to him with the backing of those nobles? Because she didn't....

[Original182]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Anora aptly led ferelden for over 5 years and has all the nobles....except eamon....blieve in her. She does her job and a grand thing at that unlike Alistair. Alistair is a public figure.....gray warden who was in a fight against the blight and archdemon....more or less the equivalent of today's superstars. It still says nothing about what he did....except "mostly" not rule.....sure never made a noteworthy decision in his life....except deciding to NOT rule....that was only his job....I'm sure he decided for himself what kind of sanwitches he wanted....tough choices....ham or beacon.

Fighting an Archdemon is like a superstar? He freakin' SAVED Ferelden from utter annihilation, while Anora was probably back in Denerim polishing her nails in a tower. Alistair is a war hero.

If the population is happy, and there are no negative things like Ferelden having civil wars,  then Alistair did something right. Therefore Alistair is also a great ruler, just like Anora.

But Alistair has no blemishes, while Anora has one. Therefore based on simple mathetics, Alistair is the better ruler.

Modifié par Original182, 08 décembre 2009 - 11:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Appointing good advisors is also a mark of a good ruler.

A smart person makes sure to have competent people around him.



Really. Quit trolling. The epilogues CLEARLY show Alistair is a better choice for ruler.Especially if you harden him.

[Darth_Trethon]

Chalenheri wrote...

for the unhardened:
He spent a lot of time traveling the country...
He spent little time in Denerim, because he did not like ruling

as for his direct actions:
He reestablished the grey wardens
He helped the city elves

For being a good ruler you do not need to do everything on your own. With Wynne and Eamon by his side, Alistair has capable help whom he can trust. We do not know what they do during Alistairs travelling!

We do know, that the Darkspawn will be back and Ferelden will need to be able to defend itself again.

I'm really interested, what Anora will do when she's alone (with the hero having sacrificed himself at the end and Alistair in exile/dead) and compare it to what will happen, if she has the hero/ a hardened Alistair by her side.

The wardens still occupy Howe's lands....the wardens are there. Plus she has the Hero of Ferelden at her side to rule the armed forces....and within reach too....at least in all my games that is.