385 réponses à ce sujet

[Dokarqt]

Ugh, that is some thread necromancing. 5 months?

[Xandurpein]

Asophetes wrote...

[Alistair is still of Royal blood, and that makes him the next ruler as default, even though he's a bastard. 

That is wrong. Maric never aknowledged him as his son. That means he is not an heir. no question about it, at least when it comes to real medieval laws. Had Maric aknowledged him as his, he would still be a bastard, but be able to inherit the crown, if there was no children form a marrige.

[BHRamsay]

Anora may have been running things but as Alistair points out; that is because, like her father, she thinks what she wants is not just the best way but the only way. That attitude is what sets off the lions share of the conflicts that fuel the game's central plot.



Her very public support of her Father in the days following Ostagar constitute royal approval of the chaos that followed. Howe's treachery , the slave trading, you actually use this argument against Loghain during the Landsmeet and it also applies to Anora. Working with you and publicly denouncing her father are a means to mitigate the damage to her public image.



Anora also has a huge emotional blind spot where her Father is concerned. That it took her MONTHS to finally confront him about what he and Howe are up to doesn't not speak well of her "LOVE" of Ferelden.



I won't dispute if she can run things or not, She plays Eamon and the PC like a harp. She gets them to risk their lives and their reputation on her behalf while never actually committing herself to their cause until they make it very clear that she will be able to remain Queen. Continuing in that post is her only concern no matter what the cost is to her people.

[Xandurpein]

BHRamsay wrote...

Her very public support of her Father in the days following Ostagar constitute royal approval of the chaos that followed. Howe's treachery , the slave trading, you actually use this argument against Loghain during the Landsmeet and it also applies to Anora. Working with you and publicly denouncing her father are a means to mitigate the damage to her public image.

After Ostagar Anora has no real power left. She was in charge before Ostagar, because Cailan let her. After Ostagar Loghain apoints himself Regent, and Anora is just Cailan's widow, which leaves her powerless.

BHRamsay wrote...

Anora also has a huge emotional blind spot where her Father is concerned. That it took her MONTHS to finally confront him about what he and Howe are up to doesn't not speak well of her "LOVE" of Ferelden.

Most children would have a blind spot of their parents, but by the time she becomes queen at the end of the game (if she does) her attitude to Loghain is very different if Loghain is dead or alive. If Loghain is dead, she will try to make him a posthumous hero, while if he lives, she will send him away from Denerim to make sure he cannot interfere with her reigning. It's more the fact that she has no power to do anything to oppose her father, before she has a chance to hook up with the Warden.

BHRamsay wrote...

I won't dispute if she can run things or not, She plays Eamon and the PC like a harp. She gets them to risk their lives and their reputation on her behalf while never actually committing herself to their cause until they make it very clear that she will be able to remain Queen. Continuing in that post is her only concern no matter what the cost is to her people.

If you study history, you'll find a lot of examples of leaders who are only interested in their own power. As a rule they are not very progressive rulers. Anora is clearly interested in making Fereldan a more moder nation, investing in education, trade and commerce. That's not exactly the type of things you'd expect from someone who only bothers about holding on to power, for it's own sake.

Yes, she is a politician and, like her father, she seems to think that she is the only one who can do the job, but she has a pretty clear view on how to make Fereldan better too. Disagree with her policies if you want, but you are making things awfully simple if you claim she isn't interested in the future of Fereldan.

[BHRamsay]

Xandurpein wrote...If you study history, you'll find a lot of examples of leaders who are only interested in their own power. As a rule they are not very progressive rulers. Anora is clearly interested in making Fereldan a more moder nation, investing in education, trade and commerce. That's not exactly the type of things you'd expect from someone who only bothers about holding on to power, for it's own sake.

Yes, she is a politician and, like her father, she seems to think that she is the only one who can do the job, but she has a pretty clear view on how to make Fereldan better too. Disagree with her policies if you want, but you are making things awfully simple if you claim she isn't interested in the future of Fereldan.

All that proves is that Anora has read the Thades version of Machiavelli and learned it well Niccolo encourages his readers to be seen as progressive  ... if it is in their best interest, -- and Anora is nothing if not self interested.

Yes she wants a more modern and enlightened Ferelden --- Eamon was practically ready to run her out on a rail because she didn't bleed Therin blood not to mention Uncle Eamon was egging Calian on to divorce her because she wasn't popping out any royal units and she was getting on the high side of thirty.

Don't get me wrong she's a nice enough lady. She can be quite personable once you indicate you have no design to usurp her will. Hell, she's even willing to tolerate Alistair and a Female PC carrying on their romance ... And the fact that Ferelden doesn't fall immediately into chaos if she is left on the throne solo is a point in her favour. But I do not for one second mistake her ruthless pragmatism as some kind of positive character trait.

Anora might be a good queen  no... Anora is, and has been a good Queen but she wants to be Queen, she wants to be queen very badly. She deals quite harshly with anything that threatens that desire which includes screwing over Daddy when it was in her best interest, and screwing over the PC if it seems to be in her best interest.

You want to go into any dealings with Anora with both eyes open not just to her good qualities but her character flaws because you can bet she is searching for the slightest advantage she can get with you and will use it ...if it is in her best interest.

[Xandurpein]

If Machiavelli is what makes her build a University, encourage commerce and create genuine progress (not just being seen to do it) I'm, not going to argue with it. That is what generates lasting proseprity for everyone.

Ruthless pragmatism, when paired with a genuine knowledge of how to bring economic progress and the will to do it, can be a very admirable trait in a leader of a slightly backwater country like Fereldan, in my humble opinion.

I'm not arguing that she can't do with some people skills to go with her other abilites or that a genuine care for people isn't a good thing too. This is why the card Anora plus Alistair feels more complete than Anora alone, and why the Anora plus Male Cousland has the potential to be more succesful than Anora alone (if he doesn't try to grab power).

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 mai 2010 - 04:34 .

[Bootsykk]

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

Did anyone here ever decide to side with Anora on your first playthrough when you wanted to actually roleplay? I can never bring myself to side with her because she just is too eager to take advantage and too greedy for power.

I had her locked up in the dungeon both times. And the 2nd time I was hoping the Hardened Alistair could have called for her execution. He only says "If I don't fall in battle, we'll see." Which means that Anora may or may not have been executed after the battle.

Honestly Ser Cauthrain did not even know Anora's side of the story. If Anora backed you up when you confronted Ser Cauthrain, then maybe Ser Cauthrain would have realized that Loghrain is wrong and crazy.

She plays the maiden in distress but then would not hesitate to call for Alistair's execution if she gets the throne.

She is willing to betray her own father to get herself back in power, but if she finds out you will not support her she immediately supports her father again. What this means is that she doesn't even care that her father is wrong. She only cares about power. If she cared about Fereldan and wanted to do what was right no matter what, she would just support the Grey Wardens. But she sides with her father again, after telling you how wrong Loghrain is, when she doesn't get your support for the throne.

Anyway, she always gets sent to prison. And her father has died in all my playthroughs.

She is kind of crazy. The only reason she almost always gets on the throne is because I'm worried that Alistair will try and kill Loghain if he gets on the throne. :\\ And Loghain is one of my favorite characters. Especially if you read the stolen throne.

[Xandurpein]

Juneya wrote...

She is kind of crazy. The only reason she almost always gets on the throne is because I'm worried that Alistair will try and kill Loghain if he gets on the throne. :\\\\\\\\ And Loghain is one of my favorite characters. Especially if you read the stolen throne.

Loghain and Anora are chips from the same block. Both are convinced they are the only ones who are suited to run the country and are willing to do a lot to make it happen. Biggest difference is Anora does know how to run a country and Loghain doesn't.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 09 mai 2010 - 10:05 .

[Emerald Melios]

So....why did she make him regent again?

[Costin_Razvan]

You think she made him? That's laughable.



He proclaimed himself reagent, and when your general who has the utter loyalty of all the troops in Eastern Fereldan does that, you really can't do ****.

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You think she made him? That's laughable.

He proclaimed himself reagent, and when your general who has the utter loyalty of all the troops in Eastern Fereldan does that, you really can't do ****.

Exactly. Anora would never had made Loghain regent if she had had any say in it. She didn't.

[BHRamsay]

Xandurpein wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You think she made him? That's laughable.

He proclaimed himself reagent, and when your general who has the utter loyalty of all the troops in Eastern Fereldan does that, you really can't do ****.

Exactly. Anora would never had made Loghain regent if she had had any say in it. She didn't.

Which is why she uses Eamon and the PC as a blunt instrumnet to "deal" with the problem.  No worries...nothing to see here  -- please move along, just a good leader showing good leadership skillz

[Xandurpein]

BHRamsay wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You think she made him? That's laughable.

He proclaimed himself reagent, and when your general who has the utter loyalty of all the troops in Eastern Fereldan does that, you really can't do ****.

Exactly. Anora would never had made Loghain regent if she had had any say in it. She didn't.

Which is why she uses Eamon and the PC as a blunt instrumnet to "deal" with the problem.  No worries...nothing to see here  -- please move along, just a good leader showing good leadership skillz.

I assume the snide remark is meant to imply irony. She is a politican and she does not use silk gloves to get what she wants, I never said anything different. I base my opinion that she is the best leader for Fereldan solely on the fact that the best outcomes for the country, in terms of what I deem important - improved economy, better education and progress only happen if she is Queen. If you think she is merely imporving the country for nefarious purposes, well, that is your opinion of course.

[BHRamsay]

Actually the irony is that throughout history mankind has made the exact same compromise that Ferelden makes ...they tell themselves that it doesn't matter what their leaders do or who gets hurt as long as the trains run on time.



Ferelden is a better place under Anora, I'm just not inclined to forget the hell we had to go though to get there or who had to die OR who was allowed to die to get to that sunny happy place.



OR who had to do the lions share of the heavy lifting to fix it.

[Daryn Mercio]

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

She came to you pleading to be "rescued" because she knew her father was wrong and Fereldan needed to be saved. Would you have rescued her if she said "rescue me so I can be Queen?"

I probably would have and still would have appointed her as queen. She's good at what she does. Alistair is a bastard son with no desire for politics. And if you spare Loghain, Alistair shows he's not exactly the pure and innocent benevolent ruler. He's no better than Anora, really.

My first playthrough I chose Anora. My subsequent ones I've been getting them to marry each other.

I still don't think that leaving because you spare Loghain(the killer of Duncan and Cailan) is on the same level as Anora's greed for power and backstabbing tendencies. Plus really, Alistair would be a better king for Fereldan because he thinks in a Lawful Good sorta way. Anora's only better than Alistair at manipulating people for power. Morrigan can do that too.

Morrigan for queen, anybody?
TECHNICALLY she is descended from a noble bloodline (Flemeth was some noble who married Lord Conobar, you know the rest)
And she is more rational that Anora imo. Not that I didn't take advantage of Anora to make me king, but I'd prefer Morrigan over her any day

[Herr Uhl]

Daryn Mercio wrote...

Morrigan for queen, anybody?
TECHNICALLY she is descended from a noble bloodline (Flemeth was some noble who married Lord Conobar, you know the rest)
And she is more rational that Anora imo. Not that I didn't take advantage of Anora to make me king, but I'd prefer Morrigan over her any day

I like Morrigan, but she isn't that rational. The last thing Morrigan should do is running a country, and I don't believe she would want to do it either.

[Costin_Razvan]

Morrigan? The same Morrigan who would wipe out the Circle of Magi any day? The same Morrigan who would rather skin a person alive that she does not like, rather then play them as a good political would?

No offence. I like Morrigan a lot, but she is one of the last people you want as ruler.

I'm just not inclined to forget the hell we had to go though to get there or who had to die OR who was allowed to die to get to that sunny happy place.

You mean invade the estate of the Arl of Denerim? Free the prisoners there and kill Howe? That is no Hell. I would have done it anyway.

Or is it perhaps in the fact you have to actually be, Maker forbid. polite to her.

Anora is not to blame for the Civil War, or for what her father did. Perhaps you seek to blame her for Cauthrien? Seriously what the hell did you expect. That Cauthrien would have let you go any way? That's laughable.

Or perhaps in your childish thinking you can only believe Alistair is a good leader. because he does not rule like Anora does. Not that he rules anything, as it is Eamon in charge of the country with him as King. The same Eamon who is not any different then Anora.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 11 mai 2010 - 02:31 .

[Xandurpein]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Or perhaps in your childish thinking you can only believe Alistair is a good leader. because he does not rule like Anora does. Not that he rules anything, as it is Eamon in charge of the country with him as King. The same Eamon who is not any different then Anora.

To be fair, if you harden Alistair I don't expect him to do just everything Eamon says. And Eamon isn't just like Anora. Anora is a ruthless pragmatist. Eamon is just ruthless, but not as pragmatic.

[Xandurpein]

Ouch triple post

Modifié par Xandurpein, 11 mai 2010 - 04:30 .

[Xandurpein]

Ouch, triple post!

Modifié par Xandurpein, 11 mai 2010 - 04:31 .

[Costin_Razvan]

To be fair, if you harden Alistair I don't expect him to do just everything Eamon says. And Eamon isn't just like Anora. Anora is a ruthless pragmatist. Eamon is just ruthless, but not as pragmatic.

Anora is a pragmatic woman, but she is not ruthless. She loves Loghain a great deal, as much as she loved Cailan. She even shows affection towards the Warden should he choose to marry her. The fact she shows discormfort about marrying Alistair, or the fact she will not side with you should you choose to tell her that you will kill Loghain no matter what, tells me everything I need to know.

And how is Eamon NOT pragmatic? How is Hardened Alistair not ruthless ( or Pragmatic) since he executes Anora. ( Or did you think he gives her a pat on the back and lets her be? )

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 11 mai 2010 - 04:49 .

[Xandurpein]

Massamies wrote...

Well, Anora, unlike Alistair when Loghain is spared, is given direct opportunity AFTER the Landsmeet decision declaration, to drop the claim and give oath of loyalty. However she always chooses not to drop the claim. So Eamon is not as ruthless since he gives her opportunity to drop the claim after the decision, when its obvious that you have really no other option than drop the claim, that is actually really soft, but Anora chooses the obviously suicidal option. And the game doesn't confirm that she is actually executed.

Sticking to your opinions, even if it leads you to your doom is not being ruthless. Alistair and Anora both have a opinions that they simply refuse to back down from. Alistair wants to kill Loghain and Anora wants to be Queen. They are also both quite ruthless when it comes to achieving those goals. That doesn't mean they are necessarily ruthless in everything. 

Eamon is ruthless primarily in his treatment of Alistair. Even if Alistair (unhardened) doesn't want to be King, Eamon doesn't give a damn, all he cares for is the tradition and Maric's blood. What i meant by him not being as pragmatic as Anora is primarily that his goals aren't very pragmatic. He's more of the Tradiotionalist Harrowmont type.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 11 mai 2010 - 07:37 .

[Costin_Razvan]

You honestly think people believe Eamon is ruthless based on the decision to execute her? You seriously don't understand something then.



Eamon is considered ruthless because he goes a long way to make Alistair king, despite Alistair's protests. He even goes so far as to prefer having Alistair RULE ALONE, so he can manipulate him.

He is also considered ruthless based on the fact he wanted Cailan to abandon Anora.



Anora is not as pragmatic or ruthless as you make her seem to be. A pragmatic/ruthless person would have kept her mouth firmly shut when it came to executing Loghain, swore an oath to Alistair and then plotted to overthrow him in a civil war, and if Loghain had half the country behind him, then you can bet your ass that Anora would have most of it behind her.



Instead she chooses to die with dignity.



Alistair is more irrational then Anora ever is, by the way. He goes from not wanting to the crown, to wanting it if he as hardened, just to NOT LET ANORA ON THE THRONE. Even though he says repeatedly ( both before you journey to Denerim and after he is crowned ) that he doesn't want it.



Then if you spare Loghain he throws a hissy fit. Demanding the crown so he can fuel his selfish desire to kill Loghain. If you refuse to give it to him then he cannot even comprehend what you are doing ( unhardened ) or so says screw you right in the face ( hardened ).



If you choose to execute him then he cannot even comprehend that you want him dead, or simply wishes you all died during the Blight.

[Xandurpein]

It's also interesting to note that people who strongly dislike Anora are usually split even between who thinks the fact that she is loyal to her father is proof that she is evil, and between those who thinks that she ultimately is willing to abandon him is proof that she is evil...