385 réponses à ce sujet

[Cyberpunk]

Yeah, I mean what did Anora expect you to do when you met Ser Cauthrein. Plus I do not think Ser Cauthrein knew about Anora's side of the story, and that is why I attempted to reason with her rather than fight her and her small army of other guards on Nightmare mode. It wasn't really a backstab to her. And plus she blames you for not being subtle even though there is no way to be subtle when the entrance/exit is blocked by Ser Cauthrein.

[Maria Caliban]

You could either fight Cauthrien or surrender to her.

This is what you did--
Anora: Don't tell anyone who I am, for I fear for my life.
Loghian's 2nd: Halt.
PC: Look Cauthrien, it's Anora!
Anora: (oh ****) Er, these people are kidnapping me! I'm not with them at all.

Yes, she screws you over. Then again, from her viewpoint, you just screwed her over and possibly put her life at risk.

As I said, Anora is not a hero. She tells you what she wants, and cooperates as long as she sees you working towards that same goal. When you do the exact opposite of what she's asked, the deal is off.

It's not nice, but it's not backstabing.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 décembre 2009 - 09:30 .

[TuringPoint]

Being witless and betraying someone inadvertently doesn't mean it's not a betrayal. I think Anora felt justified, whether or not she was by anyone elses judgement.  I just see her as a strong woman.

Modifié par Alocormin, 01 décembre 2009 - 09:26 .

[Gold Dragon]

"It's not nice, but it's not backstabbing."



Well, what else WOULD you call it, since she stands (literally) behind you.....



Hopefully she doesn't attack....

[OldMan91]

Funny how people think that an "experienced" ruler is better than a morally "good" ruler.

*BOOK SPOILER AHOY*


Loghain selfishly made the same choice with Maric when he told him about Katriel having betrayed the rebellion. Too bad he left out the part where Katriel had herself betrayed her employer and decided to join Maric, there being wanted posters of her and all.

What Ferelden needs is not an "experienced" ruler. It needs a progressive and idealist ruler. We have enough cynics and "realists" in Thedas to overflow the fade itself.

Modifié par OldMan91, 01 décembre 2009 - 09:30 .

[TuringPoint]

Anora is progressive, more so than Alistair ends up being. Is Alistair an idealist, or is he just a good fellow? There are consequences for being a ruler that is just "kind," and consequences for being a resourceful ruler who is not so kind.  I personally found no reason to consider Anora cynical, but she doesn't always find diplomatic solutions, does she?

Modifié par Alocormin, 01 décembre 2009 - 09:32 .

[kevinwastaken]

I would never support that commoner scum for the throne! Death to the pretender.

[Maria Caliban]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

"It's not nice, but it's not backstabbing."

Well, what else WOULD you call it, since she stands (literally) behind you.....

Hopefully she doesn't attack....

Eh, I surrendered.

Here's the thing, there are people who say they didn't realize there was a third option with Conner, but it was clear to me. There were people who didn't realize Lothering would be overrun, but it was clear to me. There are people who didn't realize you could have a peaceful resolution with the wolves and elves, but it was clear to me. There were people who didn't realize that you didn't have to fight Ser Cauthrien, but it was clear to me. There were people who didn't see how Anora and Alistiar would react to various decisions you've made, but it was clear to me.

I’ve just hung out on the forums and played enough BioWare RPGs that I see these things coming. Anora tells me she’s in disguise and wants to remain that way until we reach the Arl’s house. Ser Cauthrien suddenly appears. I’m given the option to say that I’m rescuing Anora.

To me, this is an obvious ‘screw Anora’ option. Only my ‘bad’ PCs would pick it. So I avoid it and go through a fun prison break out section. Others came in with different expectations, and when they pick the ‘screw Anora’ option, they‘re surprised at what looks like a backstabbing.

Editness:

And I like Anora as a character. I don't find her crazy because I see where she's coming from. I'm playing the hero, and she's playing the queen. We stick to these roles and both end up happy.

Is she a ****? Probably. I don't see ****iness as a bad attribute. It's one of the reasons I liked her. If she were a sweet and gentle flower waiting for me to save her, I'd be far less interested in placing her on the throne.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 décembre 2009 - 09:57 .

[ahnnajade]

Er. Anora can backstab you if you do not backstab her first. I surrendered, told her I wouldn't support her right away and she acted like she was relatively fine with that then pops in with Loghain later much to Alistair's horror.

Or was that not in dispute..?



From an RP POV I think Alistair and Anora are pretty equal candidates for a PC's nomination. With meta game knowledge of what she does with the alienage, what she does to Alistair in some cases, and the knowledge that Alistair can and will step up to the plate if he is made King, Alistair is the much better choice IMO. I only made Alistair king in my initial playthrough because my pc was as power hungry as Anora and wanted to be queen, too



But otherwise she's quite reasonable and pleasant and.. queenly to talk to and such. Just wouldn't sleep soundly around her. She doesn't seem shy about cutting her losses and making 'sacrifices' to get whatever she wants, even if she may be under the impression it is worth it for the "greater good".... Hmmm I wonder where she got that from



And really, I think her backstabbing PC at the landsmeet isn't that atrocious a thing. On top of thinking she'd be the better queen, and wanting to be it, she likely would have been afraid for her father's life at that point...? and rightfully so. Over all she's still a little less worse than the dwarf politicians ;D

[Cyberpunk]

OldMan91 wrote...

Funny how people think that an "experienced" ruler is better than a morally "good" ruler.

*BOOK SPOILER AHOY*


Loghain selfishly made the same choice with Maric when he told him about Katriel having betrayed the rebellion. Too bad he left out the part where Katriel had herself betrayed her employer and decided to join Maric, there being wanted posters of her and all.

What Ferelden needs is not an "experienced" ruler. It needs a progressive and idealist ruler. We have enough cynics and "realists" in Thedas to overflow the fade itself.

+1:O

[Maria Caliban]

ahnnajade wrote...

Er. Anora can backstab you if you do not backstab her first. I surrendered, told her I wouldn't support her right away and she acted like she was relatively fine with that then pops in with Loghain later much to Alistair's horror.
Or was that not in dispute..?

I might have missed that, or I might have misinterpreted it. I got a very strong impression that you were with her or against her. This may have just been people telling me that she was her father's daughter and Arl saying to get her favor and then do whatever I wanted.

So, she appears to be a backstabber..?

I still can't see her as crazy, and like the character. Fangirl blindness?

[ahnnajade]

I might very well have missed or have a fuzzy memory on it, but the way I saw it:

I didn't rat on her with Cauthrien, and once we broke out of prison when she asks for support I told her no, that my PC was going with Alistair cause she thought he was better. Anora stuck around, you can reinitiate conversation with her up until the landsmeet and tell her you changed your mind or decided to support her or what not... I packed up for Landsmeet and viola, guess who shows up saying the grey wardens were holding her prisoner or whatever she says.



BUT to Anora, perhaps by supporting Alistair you were in effect 'backstabbing' first ;D Nothin' wrong with a little fangirling. Teagan totally didn't marry that incompetent crying girl who cant walk twenty feet outside the Chantry to get her kid brother to safety and makes a random stranger do it for her in "my world," for instance. Not that that is remotely relevant or anything.

[Midnight Reyn]

I don't see her as crazy, and I don't see her as a backstabber, either.



She spent the whole time she was married to Cailan ruling the country in his name while he went off playing the hero and travelling the country. And, if you don't harden Alistair and have him marry Anora, the same thing happens.



Anora's practical. Strong-minded. She goes after what she values. She has her weak spots and her flaws, but everyone does. Faced with a choice of putting her on the throne or a non-hardened Alistair (which I equate as his 'natural' personality), I will pick her every time.

[Krigwin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eh, I surrendered.

Here's the thing, there are people who say they didn't realize there was a third option with Conner, but it was clear to me. There were people who didn't realize Lothering would be overrun, but it was clear to me. There are people who didn't realize you could have a peaceful resolution with the wolves and elves, but it was clear to me. There were people who didn't realize that you didn't have to fight Ser Cauthrien, but it was clear to me. There were people who didn't see how Anora and Alistiar would react to various decisions you've made, but it was clear to me.

I’ve just hung out on the forums and played enough BioWare RPGs that I see these things coming. Anora tells me she’s in disguise and wants to remain that way until we reach the Arl’s house. Ser Cauthrien suddenly appears. I’m given the option to say that I’m rescuing Anora.

To me, this is an obvious ‘screw Anora’ option. Only my ‘bad’ PCs would pick it. So I avoid it and go through a fun prison break out section. Others came in with different expectations, and when they pick the ‘screw Anora’ option, they‘re surprised at what looks like a backstabbing.

Editness:

And I like Anora as a character. I don't find her crazy because I see where she's coming from. I'm playing the hero, and she's playing the queen. We stick to these roles and both end up happy.

Is she a ****? Probably. I don't see ****iness as a bad attribute. It's one of the reasons I liked her. If she were a sweet and gentle flower waiting for me to save her, I'd be far less interested in placing her on the throne.

I'm sorry to rudely interrupt what is apparently a very heated session of patting yourself on the back, but some of us saw the "Reveal Anora" option as a chance to talk down Cauthrien and chose it specifically in the hopes of a peaceful resolution, only to be immediately betrayed by Anora. You know, like how she betrays you if you do not agree to support her at the Landsmeet.  Cauthrien already knows of Loghain's madness and can be easily talked down - this is a fact - but Anora is so quick at changing allegiances she decides to throw you to the wolves the instant you out her. And, let's face it - you weren't supposed to survive Drakon. When you return, either by killing Cauthrien, which I did my first playthrough - no one challenges me and lives - or from the prison escape, she switches sides yet again when she recognizes your superior power.

But speaking of Cauthrien, one wonders how she knew exactly when to arrive and ruin your rescue plan, even though you did exactly what Anora, by proxy of Erlina, told you to do, with the whole plan with the disguises and other nonsense. That's right, Anora set you up. Like I said, no one expected you to be that powerful and survive, and once Anora realizes this, she is quick to ally herself with you once again. I mean, seriously how can anyone not see this particular trap coming: you've summoned the Landsmeet and challenged Loghain. Loghain and his powerful allies, Anora being one of them so far as you know, are looking for any possible way to discredit you or possibly kill you. Then suddenly Anora becomes a damsel in distress who needs to be rescued and you're the only one who can do it?

But that is venturing dangerously into hypothetical waters, so let's stick with cold facts. I see Anora fans clamor on about how great of a Queen Anora is, but in the game there's actually zero evidence of this. Oh, it's certain Anora wants to be queen alright, this is made perfectly clear when you return to Eamon's estate and Anora is quick to talk to you about... not helping Ferelden, not taking down Loghain, not defeating the Blight, but rather what song and dance you should perform so Anora can become Queen. She's been Queen for all of five years, and in those five years, oh yeah, Cailan was left to die and Loghain drove the nation to civil war. Real great ruling there. Look back and think hard, the only reason anyone can even think Anora is a good ruler is because that's what she tells you, and if you choose the sacrifice option with no throne for Alistair, letting Anora rule alone, it's revealed in the epilogue just how much of a poor Queen she is, the situation with the Alienage and all.

Eamon tells you how much of a manipulative woman Anora is. She had Cailan wrapped up in her little finger the moment they married, and she's willing to jump into any marriage because she's certain she'll be able to do the same to you or Alistair. It doesn't matter to her because she only cares about herself and is confident in her ability to lie and deceive. If you spare Loghain's life and get on his favorable side, he reveals a wealth of information about Anora, such as how she was already a ***** when she was just a child and how she learned early on the path to success is by manipulating men.

It's a bit like the Desire Demon quandary. The only real information you get about Anora's motivations are from Anora, and she's far from being a reliable source. Add on this biased information the fact that not that many players explore every option in the game to get multiple perspectives on things, and it's very easy for people to think that Anora is your ally, the same way many people apparently think Desire Demons are something other than evil beings who want to feed on human souls. Anora is not a "strong woman". She is not your friend or your ally. She is a manipulative, stone-cold ***** whose only concern is looking out for numero uno, and I am filled with disappointment that there is no option to execute her like there is with Loghain in this game. I can agree that she is well-written, which I do enjoy because villains are far more entertaining than heroes, but it's laughable to think that she's anything but a traitorous ally of convenience ready to turn on you in a second.

[Auraad]

My first character was so much in love with Alistair, that she respected his wish of not becoming king - hence the only chance was to put Anora on the throne.

My second character will not love Alistair and just put this wimp on the throne.

My third char. ... I don't yet know (female rouge) will prolly love Za. and thus again get Ali on the throne ...



So see, it's about roleplay ... each players chars do different things (in the bonds of the game).

[Original182]

Amazing Krigwin! I thought I was the only one who remember Maria in the Desire Demons discussion.



But yeah your post is amazingly spot on too.

[Popemaster123]

Original182 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I let her rule my first playthrough.

She never backstabbed me because I never backstabbed her. I love the character, and wish there were an Anora romance.

I want to add to what the OP said. One time in my first game, I told Anora to tell Ser Cauthrien (sp) that Loghain was the one who imprisoned her. But she lied and told Cauthrien that I was the one who imprisoned her or something, and then the fight happened. I don't know what happens next, as I reloaded the game.

So what the OP said is true. Anora will backstab you if it is to protect herself, or is in her best interests.

She dosnent betray you though.....You are not ment to tell cat-woman that she is around becuase she said "they will take me back to my father where i will ALSO BE EXECUTED" meaning she just wants to live so oops betrayal.

Also if you just give up without a fight to cat-woman and then decide to support her anyway (and tell her that you will support her) then she goes for loghain anway

[mastersam562]

Krigwin post is spot on how I felt about Anora

Modifié par mastersam562, 01 décembre 2009 - 11:00 .

[ahnnajade]

I don't think anyone is really debating that Anora manipulates men, is conniving, and isn't your PC's friend, though. I think the game left enough holes or questions that, wishful thinking or no, you can dress up her motives as something less than 'villain' if you like. Pretty close considering what she's willing to do for it, but I digress. Personally I would consider her a villain, for instance.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Agrred. Great eye Krigwin.

[Zhauric]

Interesting topic. In my case on my first play through I had no qualms with putting Anora on the throne. For me saying she is power hungry and willing to backstab to get what she wants...(like any politician I might add and how the game of thrones is played in any case)...is a "at surface" view of the situation. Tell me, if you had been responsible for the kingdom for five years in the background while your spouse was hailed as king and the leader of the land even though he did nothing how would you feel when it is suddenly stripped from you when you did no wrong?



If I had been leading for five years I definitely would have been no different. I would be royally (pun intended) pissed that someone usurped me in such a manner and acted as if I could not rule when I have been doing it the last five years.



Meanwhile here was Alistair continually expressing how he didn't want to be king. Heck, he didn't even want to take the helm of our group as the more senior Grey Warden as Morrigan pointed out. So I couldn't see myself trusting to him to rule an entire country especially after his tirade about Logain.



So in the end...for me...Alistair gave me more reasons to question his leadership or lack thereof than Anora.

[Frostaxt]

First of all I am also an Anora fan, and my first human male willingly became her little "pet" prince consort and lived happily ever after!^^ Poor elves in the alienage though...

But yes overall (playing once in her favor and once against her interests), Anora seems to be manipulative, cold hearted, too dominant and too rash in making decisions, but on the other side there is not really a lot of information about her, and we don´t know really know her motivations for all her actions. I don´t think just being power hungry can be her only motivation. You also just met her at nearly the end of the game and only get some more personal information from Loghaine about her. That´s it. I had hoped, if you arrange to marry her, that this would lead to access to more information about her.



Personally I would like an add-on, dlc of whatever, which would deepen her character a bit more, so discussions about her would be based on more facts than theory.

[Cyberpunk]

Krigwin wrote...




I'm sorry to rudely interrupt what is apparently a very heated session of patting yourself on the back, but some of us saw the "Reveal Anora" option as a chance to talk down Cauthrien and chose it specifically in the hopes of a peaceful resolution, only to be immediately betrayed by Anora. You know, like how she betrays you if you do not agree to support her at the Landsmeet.  Cauthrien already knows of Loghain's madness and can be easily talked down - this is a fact - but Anora is so quick at changing allegiances she decides to throw you to the wolves the instant you out her. And, let's face it - you weren't supposed to survive Drakon. When you return, either by killing Cauthrien, which I did my first playthrough - no one challenges me and lives - or from the prison escape, she switches sides yet again when she recognizes your superior power.

But speaking of Cauthrien, one wonders how she knew exactly when to arrive and ruin your rescue plan, even though you did exactly what Anora, by proxy of Erlina, told you to do, with the whole plan with the disguises and other nonsense. That's right, Anora set you up. Like I said, no one expected you to be that powerful and survive, and once Anora realizes this, she is quick to ally herself with you once again. I mean, seriously how can anyone not see this particular trap coming: you've summoned the Landsmeet and challenged Loghain. Loghain and his powerful allies, Anora being one of them so far as you know, are looking for any possible way to discredit you or possibly kill you. Then suddenly Anora becomes a damsel in distress who needs to be rescued and you're the only one who can do it?

But that is venturing dangerously into hypothetical waters, so let's stick with cold facts. I see Anora fans clamor on about how great of a Queen Anora is, but in the game there's actually zero evidence of this. Oh, it's certain Anora wants to be queen alright, this is made perfectly clear when you return to Eamon's estate and Anora is quick to talk to you about... not helping Ferelden, not taking down Loghain, not defeating the Blight, but rather what song and dance you should perform so Anora can become Queen. She's been Queen for all of five years, and in those five years, oh yeah, Cailan was left to die and Loghain drove the nation to civil war. Real great ruling there. Look back and think hard, the only reason anyone can even think Anora is a good ruler is because that's what she tells you, and if you choose the sacrifice option with no throne for Alistair, letting Anora rule alone, it's revealed in the epilogue just how much of a poor Queen she is, the situation with the Alienage and all.

Eamon tells you how much of a manipulative woman Anora is. She had Cailan wrapped up in her little finger the moment they married, and she's willing to jump into any marriage because she's certain she'll be able to do the same to you or Alistair. It doesn't matter to her because she only cares about herself and is confident in her ability to lie and deceive. If you spare Loghain's life and get on his favorable side, he reveals a wealth of information about Anora, such as how she was already a ***** when she was just a child and how she learned early on the path to success is by manipulating men.

It's a bit like the Desire Demon quandary. The only real information you get about Anora's motivations are from Anora, and she's far from being a reliable source. Add on this biased information the fact that not that many players explore every option in the game to get multiple perspectives on things, and it's very easy for people to think that Anora is your ally, the same way many people apparently think Desire Demons are something other than evil beings who want to feed on human souls. Anora is not a "strong woman". She is not your friend or your ally. She is a manipulative, stone-cold ***** whose only concern is looking out for numero uno, and I am filled with disappointment that there is no option to execute her like there is with Loghain in this game. I can agree that she is well-written, which I do enjoy because villains are far more entertaining than heroes, but it's laughable to think that she's anything but a traitorous ally of convenience ready to turn on you in a second.

YES exactly my feelings too! I want to have her executed so she doesn't plot something against Alistair when he's on the throne! 

And Anora is doing everything for herself, not for the country.

Modifié par kooaznboi1088, 01 décembre 2009 - 11:37 .

[Chalenheri]

I did not fight. It only proves that you've got something to hide.I talked to Anora saying that i can picture her as a future queen, but i've got to think about it.



Being confronted again by Ser Cauthing, she confesses, that Logain is mad and that I should stop him. Trying to to that, Anora storms in, claims that the hero is a betrayer and sides with Logain. That IS backstabbing.

She is not crazy, just ruthless. She has a vision about what she think needs to be done and does everything for it. Does that make her a got ruler? Yes, it's better than no ruler at all, but it does not make her a good ruler



@Maria: Oh you knew that Lohtering would fall? How it comes, that it will still exist, when you let the bandits live? It's not even an evil act, because they tell you about soldiers not being existent and them "proctecting" the road

[ChickenDownUnder]

During my first play through Anora didn't come across as a backstabber to me. Especially not compared to the other ruling nobles in this game. I roleplayed as an assassin/rogue, a male city elf, who while originally was all gung-ho about elves having equal rights, became jaded against helping a people who are doing barely anything to help themselves.

My character chose to keep Anora on the throne, not to betray Anora's presence to Cauthrien and deciding to not fight the lady knight, was treated to a scene of Anora being vocal about wanting me to be rescued, Alistair offered to be the one to strike the killing blow on the Arch Demon and so died doing so, then Anora asked if I was willing to be her #1 advisor. Then the end credits played and it showed Anora being a great queen who improved her country greatly, with a lot of the improvements being attributed to my character advising her. Basically, the power behind the throne... I could live with that. ;P

She wanted to remain queen, Alistair didn't. My character wasn't the type to force a friend of his to do something he didn't want to do, and she seemed to be doing a pretty good single-handed job of it by that time in the game.

Anora building a statue to honor her father didn't strike me as something horrible to do. At one time, he HAD been a hero of Fereldan at one time and so of course his only daughter wasn't going to willingly forget about him.

Modifié par ChickenDownUnder, 01 décembre 2009 - 11:47 .