385 réponses à ce sujet

[Akka le Vil]

ReubenLiew wrote...

There seems to be a terrible amount of players who seem to adhere to the Paladin archetype...

Oh yeah, having a bit of morals make you SO MUCH an archetype <_<
The "I've no morals so I'm smarter" is so passé.

[DeathWyrmNexus]

ReubenLiew wrote...

There seems to be a terrible amount of players who seem to adhere to the Paladin archetype...

LOL, ya. Actually I try to be polite when it is warranted and ruthless when needed. I saw no reason to betray Anora to save some mouthy brat with a big sword when the queen had made me a fine deal.

[Yorenec]

ReubenLiew wrote...

There seems to be a terrible amount of players who seem to adhere to the Paladin archetype...

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Modifié par Yorenec, 01 décembre 2009 - 08:24 .

[Krigwin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

So what you're saying is..

That you came in with difference expections, and when you picked that option were surprised at Anora backstabbing you.

You are looking at this the wrong way. You are looking at it from the perspective of your one specific character that adhered to all of Anora's wishes and thus sees nothing wrong, when the perspective you should be looking at it from's is Anora's. This is only possible if you do what I have done, which is play through the game multiple times on different characters, pick different options like sparing Loghain or making Alistair rule alone, and once you have obtained the complete wealth of information you can look at the whole thing objectively.

The thing is, Anora laid down a plan. A complex and intricate multitiered plan with the end result being her ruling as Queen, which is the only thing in the universe she cares about. Loghain can die and the Blight can have all of Thedas for all she cares as long as she's Queen, but more on that later.

Anora, being the cunning and quick-witted fox she is, made this plan highly adaptable to account for any of your surprises along the way.

The first part was setting you up with her supposed rescue. If you kill Howe, she wins because in your eyes she's your ally. If Howe kills you, she wins again because she's now rid of you as a troublesome enemy.

The second part is Cauthrien's ambush, only put in place if you survive your encounter with Howe. Again, if you are defeated by Cauthrien, and are taken to Drakon, Anora wins because then you die and she doesn't have to deal with you anymore. If you defeat Cauthrien or escape from Drakon, Anora still wins because you're still fooled into thinking she's your ally.

The final part is the Landsmeet. At this point, she's doing her hardest to convince you to put her in place as Queen. If you work with her and select any ending that results in her being Queen, whether she's alone or in a marriage with you or Alistair, she wins! If you don't agree to work with her, she's going to betray you at the Landsmeet and hopefully win again when you lose and Loghain then kills you.

The only possible ways to go against her plan is if you do not support her for the Landsmeet, but win anyways, or defeat Loghain in the duel anyways, defying all expectations, or if you agree before the Landsmeet to make her Queen, and then betray her at the Landsmeet by naming Alistair to rule alone instead. So you see, Anora set up this plan to cleverly make you think she's your ally, when really in every step she put in place measures to take you out of the picture. If you do what you've apparently done, which is acquiesce to her wishes every step of the way, then she's played you like a fiddle and you're none the wiser about how she intended for you to die multiple times.

Like I said, she's a stone-cold *****. Her only loyalty is to herself, and the great thing about that is she always ends up on the winning team. Her personality is a staple archetype in fiction, easily recognizable, the term I prefer to use is "Backstabbing *****". If you've followed the Buffyverse, which is apparently where the writers of Dragon Age got a lot of their inspiration for their characters from, this type should be very familiar. Lilah Morgan comes to mind.

You got snowed. But don't feel too bad about it, you only fell into an elaborate trap the writers set up for you. Feel free to add this experience to your accomplished resume of Bioware RPG experience, maybe when the next one rolls along you'll be better equipped to think for yourself. And no, I wasn't surprised at Anora's betrayal in the Cauthrien confrontation, like I said, everyone should've seen this trap coming a mile away.

[Fishy]

Hmm

Actually if you think about it...The son of Bryce Cousland's indeed the most *noble* remaining character in the game.. Allistair might be the son of Maric ... But her mother was a wench.There was no condom back in the day i guess.

and Anora she's just a commoner ..

So i wonder if it's possible to become the king without that commoner at my side?Seriously i don't want to marry a baby with Pigtail that can't hold a sword.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Krigwin wrote...

Like I said, she's a stone-cold *****. Her only loyalty is to herself, and the great thing about that is she always ends up on the winning team. Her personality is a staple archetype in fiction, easily recognizable, the term I prefer to use is "Backstabbing *****". If you've followed the Buffyverse, which is apparently where the writers of Dragon Age got a lot of their inspiration for their characters from, this type should be very familiar. Lilah Morgan comes to mind.

You got snowed. But don't feel too bad about it, you only fell into an elaborate trap the writers set up for you. Feel free to add this experience to your accomplished resume of Bioware RPG experience, maybe when the next one rolls along you'll be better equipped to think for yourself. And no, I wasn't surprised at Anora's betrayal in the Cauthrien confrontation, like I said, everyone should've seen this trap coming a mile away.

Can you really blame Anora for scheming to keep her throne?  Fereldan is in complete and utter upheaval because of three key people; her father, Alistair the bastard prince, and you, the Grey Warden her father's been unsuccessfully trying to kill.  Regardless of your PC's personality and intentions, he/she is a flashpoint for trouble and controversy just by virtue of being alive to oppose Loghain.  If none of the Wardens had survived Ostagar, Loghain's position would have been stronger.  (Of course, there would have been no game apart from Loghain-fail and darkspawn eating everyone in Fereldan )  From where she's sitting in Howe's estate, there's a very good chance she might end up permanently imprisoned or executed if she doesn't play her cards right.

The nobility, the Grey Wardens, and many other people in the game talk about honor, duty, self-sacrifice for the good of Fereldan, and all that crap.  But when you're facing life imprisonment or death, it gets a hell of a lot harder to be quite so noble.  Did I think Anora was a conniving little fox who could potentially backstab me to hell and back?  Of course.  Did I dislike her for doing so?  Not really--like everyone else at that point, she's just doing what she thinks is necessary to survive and come out on top.  I find it hard to fault her for that very human quality.

I'd be a hypocrite if I called out Anora for making selfish decisions. My mage PC, who was for the most part a very good person saving children and kittens, made quite a few selfish decisions during and after the Landsmeet.  She backed Anora because that was the path of least resistance, and she wanted to look out for Alistair's wishes since no other damn person was.  She accepted Morrigan's offer because she didn't want to send herself or her beloved to their deaths.  Selfish?  Yes.  Possibly bad choices?  Yes.  Without justification? No.  And I think Anora's the same.

[Alneverus]

I found that you can make her victory a bitter-sweet situation, if not create a situation that overshadowed her entire rule and added in a little extra twist of the knife. Just because someone accomplished their goal doesn't always mean they were truly victorious. At least from the character's perspective.

Thus, once I allowed myself to be captured after butchering Howe (played a human noble male and wish it gave me the option to make some remark about how much his daughter looked more like your own father than him or how she calling me Daddy) I escaped. From my character's perspective it all fell into place to play along with the ploy until I had my own chance. Chalk one up for the Warden here, saving the Queen and killing Howe all in one stroke. Then staging a daring escape on his own from Fort Drakon. A nice little edition to the legend and definitely a boast for the Cousland family. I'd already built up an impressive case against Loghain at the Landsmeet.

Once I escaped and walked into Arl Eamon's house chugging down some ale (hey, I earned it) I strolled right on in and watched the Arl breath a sigh of relief as Anora prayed her game would work. When given the chance I took her alliance to get the troops I needed and had no problem of putting her into power, along with putting myself on the throne. It worked out well, as Alister didn't need to worry about the throne, so I took one for the team.

When given the chance to recruit Loghain I accepted it as a tactical choice. I've no more time for these pathetic political games, I've got a giant lizard to kill. So Alister gets pissed and walks off... Well so much for me helping you out! And then learn about the reason Wardens are needed to kill the Arch Demon. Hmm, seems like my checkmate move just landed right into my lap.

During the battle I bring Loghain along with me just 'in case' I get swallowed whole and the dragon flys over Shale and deposits my remains on her. Poor golem. So after leading forces to kill the generals I march right on up and beat the lizard down. Now comes the true checkmate moment.

Loghain offers to do it so that I can live and he 'atone' for his sins. Mercy comes with a price of guilt and punishment, so I made him stand back and watch. A slow tick of the clock is better than a quick death.

So the Arch Demon is dead and me along with them... Well Anora already announced her planned marriage to me, and it was I died in place of her father. Thus in this type of scenerio her rule is not only constantly overshadowed by my own legend, but permanently linked to it. The Warden betray by Howe, and then betray by Loghain that raised an army and put her into power, that she was to marry. Instead I killed myself and left Loghain to rebuild, as the stupid zealot would rebuild the order and use his influence with the Queen (and my death) to make a strong Warden presence. Not to mention that big statue of me would look pretty damn good.

In the end she rules, but her refusal to marry because none held up to the example of her father appears petty. If she were smart she would play the 'I promised myself to the Warden and will see him in death to keep that promise of being his' kind of situation. Not that smart of a move. But the mere legend of the Warden that triumphed over so much and died to protect 'humanity' made her entire rule a mere footnote in my legend.

Sure she rules as the queen but she'll always be known as the queen put on the throne by the Warden. Her father rebuilds what he destroyed and they both get to watch as the taint slowly twists his mind and know that his death sentence is eminent. Thus Loghain marches off into the Deep Roads to die at the hands of the darkspawn with no grave. My own tomb is impressive and that statue really is looking damn good. Hell, some female dwarf constantly runs around killing birds that get too close to it.

That is just from a single playthrough. If given some careful actions you can turn her ploy for power into little more than a footnote. Sure she gets what she wants, but you can set up a situation where she is little more than an afterthought and link everything to your character. Why worry about ruling when one can live as a legend. In the end Anora ends up a childless queen that is eventually replaced by another bloodline (and possibly, given one origin the Cousland line itself would be the strongest possibility to become the next royal family).

Modifié par Alneverus, 02 décembre 2009 - 12:38 .

[SnakeStrike8]

Bah. Anora is just this game's version of Saemon Havarian; the rogue who gets to betray you (potentially twice) and get away scot free.

[tmp7704]

Krigwin wrote...

So you see, Anora set up this plan to cleverly make you think she's your ally, when really in every step she put in place measures to take you out of the picture. If you do what you've apparently done, which is acquiesce to her wishes every step of the way, then she's played you like a fiddle and you're none the wiser about how she intended for you to die multiple times.

For a supposed mastermind who is scheming to have you killed all way to the bank she's doing terrible job of it. If it's her inteded goal all along, why are the Wardens delivered alive to Fort Drakon when it's the most loyal underlining of Anora's own father taking them there? If her primary goal was to see the Wardens dead, they would be dead. It'd take two quick jabs of sword and maybe a claim of attempted escape if anyone bothered to ask.

[Maria Caliban]

Krigwin wrote...

You are looking at this the wrong way. You are looking at it from the perspective of your one specific character that adhered to all of Anora's wishes and thus sees nothing wrong, when the perspective you should be looking at it from's is Anora's. This is only possible if you do what I have done, which is play through the game multiple times on different characters, pick different options like sparing Loghain or making Alistair rule alone, and once you have obtained the complete wealth of information you can look at the whole thing objectively.

No, you can't interpret a character objectively. We can describe Anora's actions and talk about why she does what she does and what she might be thinking, but that's all subjective.

The thing is, Anora laid down a plan. A complex and intricate multitiered plan with the end result being her ruling as Queen, which is the only thing in the universe she cares about.

Again, that's your interpretation. I don’t think Anora had a complec and multi-tiered plan because I see no evidence of one. If you come to her, do what she wants and tell her what she wants to hear then she’ll support you. If not, she doesn’t. As epic schemes go, that is pretty underwhelming. My cat makes complex and intricate plans like that on a daily basis.

You got snowed. But don't feel too bad about it, you only fell into an elaborate trap the writers set up for you.

Yes.. the happy ending trap. I feel so snowed.

Other ways this game has snowed me: 
1. The elves asked me to cure the werewolf curse and I did so. lollol - epic fail on my part!
2. Bann Tegan asked me to save Redcliffe and I did so. Wow! Did that manipulative bastard have me over a barrel or what?! 
3. Duncan made me a Grey Warden to help end the Blight, and I managed to kill the Archdemon. /facepalm I am such an idiot. Why did I see how he was using me all along?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 02 décembre 2009 - 01:15 .

[Krigwin]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
The nobility, the Grey Wardens, and
many other people in the game talk about honor, duty, self-sacrifice
for the good of Fereldan, and all that crap.  But when you're facing
life imprisonment or death, it gets a hell of a lot harder to be quite
so noble.  Did I think Anora was a conniving little fox who could
potentially backstab me to hell and back?  Of course.  Did I dislike
her for doing so?  Not really--like everyone else at that point, she's
just doing what she thinks is necessary to survive and come out on top.
 I find it hard to fault her for that very human quality.

I cannot fault her for wanting to stay alive, but here's just the thing: she could not have possibly known her fate if Alistair was to be made King beforehand. She doesn't know Alistair and could not have predicted he would lock her up, and indeed there is no way to kill her in the game (nor do I believe Alistair would be bloodthirsty enough to order her execution). This means her purpose was not to stay alive, but rather to keep her throne instead, and she premeditated her schemes before she even met you based on this purpose.

Now, that might even be a noble goal, if there was evidence that she'd be a good and fair ruler, or even evidence that in the past she was a good and fair ruler. Or if she had any legitimate claim to the throne besides being the wife of someone she left to die in a field. But none of these is the case. She has no claim and is a manipulative and selfish racist and classist. She is a poor wartime ruler as well and Alistair, as not just the son of Maric, but also a heroic Grey Warden, would be a far more inspirational ruler for Ferelden.

She's willing to do whatever it takes, betray whoever it takes, to come out on top. That's not good for anyone, and certainly not good if she's to be the sole ruler of a war-ravaged nation.

tmp7704 wrote...
For a supposed mastermind who is scheming to have you killed all way to the bank she's doing terrible job of it. If it's her inteded goal all along, why are the Wardens delivered alive to Fort Drakon when it's the most loyal underlining of Anora's own father taking them there? If her primary goal was to see the Wardens dead, they would be dead. It'd take two quick jabs of sword and maybe a claim of attempted escape if anyone bothered to ask.

Incorrect. Her primary goal is not to kill you. Her primary goal is to become Queen. Having you alive can aid in this goal, but if you do not help her then you can just die. She doesn't care if you live or die as long as she gets to stay Queen, and she'd have no reason to go out of her way to get you dead unless it's made perfectly clear you're going to oppose her right from the start, which is impossible in the game. Remember, if her plans succeeded you would be fooled into thinking she's your ally and be her willing accomplice, so there'd be no need to kill you. Plus, this is a video game and the player is always underestimated.

But I do agree on the entire Fort Drakon sequence being a cliched mess, albeit very entertaining. I would guess that since it's only optional, it's meant to be more of an amusing diversion rather than a canon part of the game, and a lot of players, myself included, didn't even know at first that it existed as we just barreled on and killed Cauthrien the first time around.

Maria Caliban wrote...
No, you can't interpret a character objectively. We can describe
Anora's actions and talk about why she does what she does and what she
might be thinking, but that's all subjective.

Again, that's your interpretation. I don’t think Anora had a complec
and multi-tiered plan because I see no evidence of one. If you come to
her, do what she wants and tell her what she wants to hear then she’ll
support you. If not, she doesn’t. As epic schemes go, that is pretty
underwhelming. My cat makes complex and intricate plans like that on a
daily basis.

It's not just conjecture. Like I said, you can gather information from a number of sources, including Anora herself, that hint to this plan, and it's not really hard to put two and two together when Anora tells you to go someplace and as soon as you get there there are repeated attempts on your life. Spare Loghain next time and see what he thinks of his own daughter. No one in the entire game except for Anora herself states that you should trust her. And I think you're missing the masterstroke of her "underwhelming" epic scheme, which is convincing the player she's your ally when really she couldn't give a crap about you. Judging by your hasty defense of her on an internet messageboard I'd say she more than succeeded.

And I wouldn't call any ending with Anora as queen as the happy one. Just think of poor Alistair or the Alienage!

[TuringPoint]

Well, there are repeated attempts on your life that people are giving you money for throughout the rest of the game. Is everyone else who gives you a mission trying to kill you off? Everywhere Anora sends you furthers your agenda, so... what? What else do you want?  More directly kind words?  A gentle pat on the back?  Do you want her to swing her sword with you?

Modifié par Alocormin, 02 décembre 2009 - 02:24 .

[Maria Caliban]

Krigwin wrote...

It's not just conjecture. Like I said, you can gather information from a number of sources, including Anora herself, that hint to this plan, and it's not really hard to put two and two together when Anora tells you to go someplace and as soon as you get there there are repeated attempts on your life.

There are repeated attempts on my life everywhere I go. I cannot step two feet in this game without someone trying to kill me. Heck, maybe the blight is also part of Anora’s elaborate scheme to get me to make her queen by killing me.

Spare Loghain next time and see what he thinks of his own daughter.

I did spare Loghain.

No one in the entire game except for Anora herself states that you should trust her.

Anora never says you should trust her.

And I think you're missing the masterstroke of her "underwhelming" epic scheme, which is convincing the player she's your ally when really she couldn't give a crap about you. Judging by your hasty defense of her on an internet messageboard I'd say she more than succeeded.

I think you're confusing 'ally' with 'friend.' Why would she give a crap about the PC? The PC is just a means to an ends. As I said before, with Anora, it’s her way or the highway. She’s not nice. She tosses the PC to the wolves if they act against her interests.

The real problem seems to be that you can’t understand why another player would be fine with this, and not consider her a crazy ****. If I like the character, I can only be ‘snowballed’ or taken in by her ‘epic scheme.’ It certainly couldn’t be that I like it when NPCs have their own desires, and I have to work with them instead of just gutting them or tossing a persuade check their way so they capitulate to my desires.

[Krigwin]

Maria Caliban wrote...
There are repeated attempts on my life everywhere I go. I cannot step two feet in this game without someone trying to kill me. Heck, maybe the blight is also part of Anora’s elaborate scheme to get me to make her queen by killing me.

Anora tells you to go someplace. All along the way you are ambushed by people (that you previously believed to be her allies) who seem to have a preternatural knowledge of your movements. If you don't understand the implications of this I don't know what to tell you.

Maria Caliban wrote...
Anora never says you should trust her.

Let me rephrase. No one in the entire game tells you to believe what Anora says. Eamon tells you to tread carefully and Loghain admits to you his own daughter has been a deceiver since childhood. Yet you apparently think she's quite forthright despite her numerous betrayals and tendency to lie.

Maria Caliban wrote...
I think you're confusing 'ally' with 'friend.' Why would she give a crap about the PC? The PC is just a means to an ends. As I said before, with Anora, it’s her way or the highway. She’s not nice. She tosses the PC to the wolves if they act against her interests.

The real problem seems to be that you can’t understand why another player would be fine with this, and not consider her a crazy ****. If I like the character, I can only be ‘snowballed’ or taken in by her ‘epic scheme.’ It certainly couldn’t be that I like it when NPCs have their own desires, and I have to work with them instead of just gutting them or tossing a persuade check their way so they capitulate to my desires.

Firstly, I have never once stated she is crazy.

You seem to think I dislike Anora, when in fact I stated in my first post I enjoy villainous characters more than bland heroes and do in fact think Anora is a good character. I only intend to inform people who got played in their first games of the truth because so many people are running around apparently thinking Anora is just a clever little girl and her betrayal was totally merited.

If you however, know of these truths and are fine with being used and are still in love with her, I have nothing further to say. Except maybe to seek counseling. Or at least never marry.

[Drunkencelt]

My first playthrough was a human noble, and I knew this would be the only chance to marry her and be king option. So I went that route, and it fit the roleplay aspect of him.

Either way, I never betrayed her and she still betrayed me because I chose marry me and I will support you.

She doesn't stab you in the back only if you do exactly what she wants. I wanted to be able to romance her past that point, or have one intimate moment.....but nothing.

When she slapped Allistars hand on my second playthrough, during the wedding, I knew she was a grade A wench. Atleast Branka wasn't hiding the monster inside her.

[Nazoa]

Drunkencelt wrote...

My first playthrough was a human noble, and I knew this would be the only chance to marry her and be king option. So I went that route, and it fit the roleplay aspect of him.

Either way, I never betrayed her and she still betrayed me because I chose marry me and I will support you.

She doesn't stab you in the back only if you do exactly what she wants. I wanted to be able to romance her past that point, or have one intimate moment.....but nothing.

When she slapped Allistars hand on my second playthrough, during the wedding, I knew she was a grade A wench. Atleast Branka wasn't hiding the monster inside her.

That's the same time I let her rule. Every other time I let allistair take it, mainly because I like his battle speech better.... Anora's voice is too annoying when she screams......

[kevinwastaken]

I want to smash Anora's face with a warhammer.

[tmp7704]

Krigwin wrote...

Incorrect. Her primary goal is not to kill you. Her primary goal is to become Queen. Having you alive can aid in this goal, but if you do not help her then you can just die.

This is not quite what you said initially -- she's supposed to actively see to your demise in case you don't support her plans. And for all she knows when you rat her out at Howe's mansion you are *not* helping her, quite the opposite. Yet she still lets you live *and* goes to the Arl's house where for all she knows she is likely to get killed for just having stabbed a knife in your back? (both Zevran and Morrigan are quite eloquent about it if they happen to be in your party, Zevran in particular) That's risky, sloppy and all that for what gain exactly; an assistance she does not even need in the first place because she already is a Queen and one that has general public quite enthralled with her?

It's not just conjecture. Like I said, you can gather information from a number of sources, including Anora herself, that hint to this plan, and it's not really hard to put two and two together when Anora tells you to go someplace and as soon as you get there there are repeated attempts on your life.

But i thought you just said her primary goal was not to kill you as long as you're helping. And yet doing as she tells you and then being assaulted by groups of enemies is also supposed to be part of her master plan? So, is she attempting to kill me while i'm being helpful to her cause, or only when i'm not supporting her? (in which case trying to kill me as i'm helping makes no sense) ... or what, really?

Frankly, the one thing to comes to mind is the Occam's Razor. It just seems to fit well here.

Modifié par tmp7704, 02 décembre 2009 - 04:59 .

[Krigwin]

tmp7704 wrote...
This is not quite what you said initially -- she's supposed to actively see to your demise in case you don't support her plans. And for all she knows when you rat her out at Howe's mansion you are *not* helping her, quite the opposite. Yet she still lets you live *and* goes to the Arl's house where for all she knows she is likely to get killed for just having stabbed a knife in your back? (both Zevran and Morrigan are quite eloquent about it if they happen to be in your party, Zevran in particular) That's risky, sloppy and all that for what gain exactly; an assistance she does not even need in the first place because she already is a Queen and one that has general public quite enthralled with her?

I detest it when people say you "rat" her out when revealing her identity to Cauthrien. I have already explained why this would seem like the logical choice for some, and even ingame evidence proves it would work if not for Anora's betrayal.

She knows her life is never in any danger (from you that is, though I would not agree that Loghain is demented enough to kill his own daughter). Killing her would only be a detriment to your plans since you need her aid to win the Landsmeet, or so you think. Plus Eamon would never allow it. Hardly sloppy or risky, and she does need your aid to remove Loghain from power.

And what is this with her letting you live? If you survive your encounters with Howe and Cauthrien, it's not because of any apparent mercy on Anora's part, but rather your own martial prowess. Elaborate.

tmp7704 wrote...
But i thought you just said her primary goal was not to kill you as long as you're helping. And yet doing as she tells you and then being assaulted by groups of enemies is also supposed to be part of her master plan? So, is she attempting to kill me while i'm being helpful to her cause, or only when i'm not supporting her? (in which case trying to kill me as i'm helping makes no sense) ... or what, really?

Frankly, the one thing to comes to mind is the Occam's Razor. It just seems to fit well here.

You misunderstand. I stated that she was adaptable and ready for your surprises. She did plot for you to be killed, but that was not her main goal. Her main goal is to be Queen, and when you do not die, she adapts her plan to accomodate this, namely by allying herself with you instead. She has planned for possible contingencies in such a way that even if you live, you're still fooled into helping her. Either you help her and it appears that she's telling the truth, and thus she wins, or you fail and it's game over and she wins. You see the duplicity.

[tmp7704]

Krigwin wrote...

I detest it when people say you "rat" her out when revealing her identity to Cauthrien.

It is a handy term but if you dislike it we can instead go with "doing the very thing Anora just told you not to". I.e. for all she can see you are not cooperating with her but quite the opposite. Consequently going by the line of logic you were presenting it would be in her best interest to remove you from picture, permanently. Except she doesn't. Which either makes no sense or simply means the line of reasoning you provide for her is false.
 

And what is this with her letting you live? If you survive your encounters with Howe and Cauthrien, it's not because of any apparent mercy on Anora's part, but rather your own martial prowess. Elaborate.

I'm talking about the situation where you do not "survive" your encounter but are instead captured. And left alive rather than dead although from Anora's point of view there's absolutely no reason to keep you alive at this point.

She did plot for you to be killed, but that was not her main goal. Her main goal is to be Queen, and when you do not die, she adapts her plan to accomodate this, namely by allying herself with you instead.

The goalposts are being moved slightly too fast for me to follow, i'm afraid. Just a few posts ago you were saying she did not intend to get the wardens killed unless they're not cooperating (" she'd have no reason to go out of her way to get you dead (..)") but now her plan is supposed to be "try to kill them first and pretend to be friend if that does not work".

Would you agree this is rather confusing and makes hardly an impression of a solid master plan?

Modifié par tmp7704, 02 décembre 2009 - 06:04 .

[Crunchyinmilk]

I have never felt betrayed by Anora. She's already Queen, small wonder she wishes to hold onto that role. She's invested a lot of time and effort running the country from behind the scenes for her pretty but worthless as a ruler husband, Calin.

Things go to the dogs when she's removed from that power and Loghain takes control. He imprisons her and she's forced to come to you and Eamon for help. She cannot take on her father alone. She doesn't WANT to be helped by Eamon, she has no option. Eamon sees Anora as nothing but the daughter of a commoner who married into the royal family. He has no respect for Anora as a ruler because he's only interested in ROYAL blood. Eamon even admits to knowing it was Anora who did the ruling, and it offends him, never mind that she was good at it.

When you rescue her from Howe, small wonder she skips out on you. Have you fought Cauthrien? Read her codex entry? She's Loghain's protege, virtually worshipped him all her life. Even if she has growing doubts about Loghain's current sanity, its still a good bet she's going to take Anora back to the very person who imprisoned her. And you're not much of a hero to be caught not 5 feet from her prison cell!

If you surrender or loose to Cauthrien and wind up in Fort Drakon, Anora's only interested in saving YOU, Eamon has to prompt her that Alistair is in prison too.

Anora's preference is to have YOUR support, she won't get Eamon's without having to marry Alistair. Would you marry your just dead husband's brother? When he looks and acts just like him and has about as much between the ears?
When he's so enamored of and politically tied to, someone who has no respect for you just because you are a woman and not of a true noble bloodline?

If you save Loghain's life and talk to him, he admits to making a mess of ruling. Of how much respect he has for Anora now, and that he intended for her to return to the throne.

Breaking a few hard truths to Alistair throughout your adventures doesn't make him good king material, and the idea that making Alistair King magically makes life for the elves hunky dory is utter bollocks. He dumps you if you're his elven girlfriend.

I was happy to support Anora every time. Willing even, to participate in a marriage of convenience with her. It would be an awful lot of fun ruling and arguing with her. Yes she wants to rule, yes she has ambition. I wouldn't have it any other way. A disinterested, soft touch, puppet should be no one's idea of a good ruler.

[Destructo-Bot]

Ser Cautherine seems like she can be swayed to your side with the right proof. Anora ignores this VERY, VERY useful ally and instead throws you to the wolves. That is very poor long term planning on her part, and shows an inability to adapt to a changing situation or the inability to gain allies readily. Doing so also makes an enemy of a very powerful character in game (your PC grey warden) who has already demonstrated a remarkable ability to get their way against all odds. Bad, bad choices on Anora's part all around.

Too dumb to live; the tower is too good for her.

Modifié par Destructo-Bot, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:32 .

[Lughsan35]

Drunkencelt wrote...

My first playthrough was a human noble, and I knew this would be the only chance to marry her and be king option. So I went that route, and it fit the roleplay aspect of him.

Either way, I never betrayed her and she still betrayed me because I chose marry me and I will support you.

She doesn't stab you in the back only if you do exactly what she wants. I wanted to be able to romance her past that point, or have one intimate moment.....but nothing.

When she slapped Allistars hand on my second playthrough, during the wedding, I knew she was a grade A wench. Atleast Branka wasn't hiding the monster inside her.

Now now Branka was letting the monster lick her nether regions while attempting to get to the anvil.. and who knows if she really was a lesbian or just got so horny and couldn't find a dwarf to live up to her drunk husband...

[Original182]

Based on what I've read, there are 2 groups of people here:
Anora is a backstabber, and shouldn't be allowed to rule based on this characteristic alone.
Anora is a backstabber, but she's just merely trying to survive, and she is supposedly better to rule based on that characteristic alone?

Being a backstabber doesn't make you a good ruler. I chose Anora in the first game only because Alistair never wanted it and SOMEBODY has to rule. But I think I'll force Alistair to sit on the throne for the good of Ferelden. Ferelden politics must change, otherwise it'll end up like the sad state of Orzammar.

Edit: So I think everyone here agrees that Anora is a backstabber. Whether because she is evil, or out of necessity is irrelevant. A backstabber is a backstabber.
So maybe we can move on, and discuss other reasons why Anora shouldn't be ruler. What happened to the elven alienage is a very strong indication that she isn't as good as some people claim. In real life this is almost equivalent of genocide.

Modifié par Original182, 02 décembre 2009 - 08:06 .

[mastersam562]

I really like the points people make defending Anora as a better ruler it make for great discussion, but really if you played through the game several time with different choices it's quite clear who the better ruler is....it's Alistair. Krigwin hit every point against people defending her so far.

Personally as a Male Noble origin I was I wanted to fullfill a promise I made to Alistair going to Wissupt(sp?) to honor Duncan. So on my first playthrough I put Anora on the throne for that very reason. I find out she killed off the elves in the Alienage to shutup a riot(terrible ruler), and the more I think about it what has she done for those 5 years she ruled "behind the scene?" The Alienage is still a horrific mess, slavery is being done unnoticed(or was it?). Then after the battle of Ostagar a civil war broke out which she couldnt do a damn thing about.

All in all Anora is a very weak ruler no matter how you looks at it. Sure she didnt have the military might still doing nothing about it doesnt excuse it. Knowing what she is capable of during the Blight isnt going to stop her from doing something similar after the Blight. No way in hell im going to put someone like that on the throne.

Modifié par mastersam562, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:49 .