385 réponses à ce sujet

[Crunchyinmilk]

When you first arrived in the city with Eamon your grievance with Howe is made quite clear to Cauthrien.

Ser Cauthrien can't be talked around at the foiled breakout from Howe's estate. You're standing hip deep in the bodies of his guards with blood all over you and she's there to arrest you. If you OUT the disguised Anora right there, its no wonder she provokes a fight, to let her flee the scene. Not even a master of coercion could talk themselves out of being arrested. It seems certain if she doesn't scarper, she'll be dragged back to daddy.

Just because you where stupid enough to try to talk Ser Cauthrien around to your cause, with blood and bodies lying all about (and upon) you and a mysterious girl who looks just like the Queen standing behind you, doesn't make Anora a backstabbing **** for making the most intelligent response she could given her rescuers idiocy.

Ser Cauthrien dying then and there is totally up to you, you can hardly blame Anora for throwing away a resource when its your decision. She gets upset at YOU if YOU chose to kill her.

Anora is savvy, She wants to control the news of her imprisonment and use it when it can do the most good for her cause. She is not a backstabber. She's just more intelligent than all of you apparently.

By all means, discuss OTHER reasons you feel she shouldn't be queen. "What happened at the elven alienage" isn't very descriptive though. To what do you refer?

Modifié par Crunchyinmilk, 02 décembre 2009 - 11:57 .

[mastersam562]

1. It's not about "What happened at the elvan alienage?" My question is whats being done about it? Some type of disease is spreading and we have Tevinters dealing with it?
2. Slave trading going unnoticed done by your very own father at that. Im also questioning if Anora knew about all along.
3. Noble children being tortured going unnoticed.
4. The Cousland were wiped out because of some "Treason?" From what I understand the Cousland were always loyal, how come no one investigated the matter? How come no one questioned it? Just like that they were slaughtered without hearing. Who would give such an order?
5. Eamon being poisoned, and no one other than his own Redciffe even bothered helping.
6. Why is there a very very powerful mage in your very own city going unnoticed. Gax'Kang anyone....
7. Civil War which she is powerless to do anything about.
8. Bandits in the city which I have to clean up for you.
9. Probably have more but this is all I think of.

This is all being done under her "behind the scene" ruling. You you have paranoid madman running around destroying allies also potential allies that can help fight the Blight and Orlesian. From what I understand Logaine is considered a "tactical genius" from people who read the 2 books, ill have to pick those up sometime during this holiday. Everything thats being done during the game doesnt show that at all, hes killing off people who can help fight against the darkspawn and if the Orlesian attack.

Tactical sense is telling me I would rather build a vast army. Why not give the elves a little bone have them take arms to fight for their own country they eat and breathe the same air, why deny them the right ? Instead theyre being sold off, and there a few dozen clan of elves in the wild who ran from human enslavement. Why kill off the Cousland, attempting at Eamon. This all doesnt sound like a smart general at all.

Anora is completely helpless prevention all this. Maybe she kept in the dark in all this. maybe she doesnt have the military to do anything. It seems Logaine is running the show, and doing a wonderful job of it.......So this bring us back to square one. What has Anora done within those 5 years ruling? I wont deny shes no idiot so she has to have some knowledge of the things going on, with that said she isnt doing much to stop it. Krigwin is right she only want to see the crown on her head. I see nothing in her as a ruler, Eamon or any other of those noble can probably do the same.

Putting Alistair in the throne knowing he would become a strong king if hardened I preserved the original bloodline. He gives an elf a seat of power giving them equal rights, potentially increasing military power and peace amoung humans. He quickly hit the books because he want to become a great king "Ruling with a fair and even hand ," if i remember correctly. With Eamon/Wynn/myself helping him he can only get better. So really I have no reason to keep Anora in the throne while Alistair has every reason to be on it.

Modifié par mastersam562, 02 décembre 2009 - 01:26 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

TACTIS - planing and prediction on small scale (on a single battlefield)



STRATEGY - planing on a large scale. Logistics, troop movements, overal strategy.



Loghain is a terrible strategist and his tactics at Ostagar were rather common sense (pretty basic).

[Cyberpunk]

1. Anora is a terrible person because of all that was discussed here. We can already establish that. Loghain confirms that she is so greedy that she will do anything for what she wants. She is willing to betray her own father, than betray you for her father when she doesn't get what she wants. Alistair rules because it is for Feralden. Anora rules because it is for her own power. She has an option of withdrawing from power and letting Alistair take the throne. She will still be quite wealthy because she will inherit Loghain's possessions (after I kill him).



2. Anora is not as good of a ruler as Alistair. Alienage issue being a huge factor. Also, the fact that she pisses off Orlesians by having a statue of her father there. Although that is understandable on an emotional point of view, from a foreign policy point of view that is a terrible move to insult the other nations for no apparent gain. Plus Alistair has the compassion for the people, and actually goes out to meet them and understand them.

[cglasgow]

Look, can any of the people so passionately arguing the Arl Howe estate escape actually turn their creative talents to justifying the part where Anora can backstab you at the Landsmeet even if you've never done one single thing against her first for the entire game? As some people have reported seeing happen to them?



Because there really isn't any excuse for that that I can spot, and it highlights Anora as an untrustworthy self-centered bitca.

[voidcommander9111980]

Anora deserve to be in the throne, cause is the real political power

have experience and she is an annoying biaatch, so she is right for this role



In addition Alistair is a pathetic bastard kid that dont know how to tie his shoes

and the only thing he knows to do is to critisize others

and always cry for stupidities ...



So i prefer Teyrn Loghain and Anora 100 %



Joker out

[Crunchyinmilk]

mastersam562 none of your points fall at Anora's feet. She was deposed (and imprisoned) by her father who installed himself as regent before most of them began.

The disease was a tervinter slaver invention. Not a real plague. It made separating shipments of elves from the alienage population easier. Loghain admits in the Landsmeet to calling the Tervinter slavers in himself if you bring it up as one of your accusations.

The noble prisoner was Howe's doing. What better way to secure a vote in the Landsmeet for Loghain, than to ransom the life of a nobleman's child in return for it? Freeing the boy wins YOU the very same nobleman's vote.

The murder of the Couslands is also a plot of Howe's. He's already working with Loghain at the start of the game and knows that Calin (and presumably Fergus) will die at Ostagar. Loghain will return to usurp the throne and together they can construct a false treason plot to let Howe keep Highever.

That you and Fergus survive Ostagar is just unexpected. No one knows what really happened way out at Highever (see the nobles comments in the tavern in Denerim). Anora offers you her sympathy and readily believes YOUR side of the story. She was apparently well known by your mother, even Fergus says so.

Jowan admits to being paid by Loghain to poison Eamon. In the pub in Redcliffe you find an elven spy who is being paid (by Loghain) to watch for and report people who leave Redcliffe after Jowan arrives.

When you first arrive at Redcliffe, Thomas (the guy on the bridge) expresses amazement that NO ONE has heard of what's going on there despite them sending several messengers out for help! (presumably intercepted and killed by Loghain's men).

I really can't see how you can blame Anora for Gax'Kang, You're really clutching at straws for reasons to hate someone now.

7, 8 and 9 are also explained by the game. Talk to the yellow named officer outside Wade's armorer. Howe was put in charge of policing the city after Loghain assumed power. A criminal deviant in charge of policing crime in the city? Little wonder that unrest has grown and bandits are taking over territory. The officer even admits Howe is staffing the cities police force with his own, criminal men.

All the while, Anora is under house arrest or in Howe's prison. Unable to challenge her father's position as Reagent by herself. You and Eamon are her only chance to make things right. To fix the damage her father and Howe have done, and reclaim the throne she holds rightfully.

At no point is she every portrayed as disinterested in destroying the blight or fixing the mistakes/schemes of her father and Howe.

[Cyberpunk]

At no point is she every portrayed as disinterested in destroying
the blight or fixing the mistakes/schemes of her father and Howe.

except when she betrays you at the landsmeet for not agreeing to make her queen. You, the last remaining hope to kill the Darkspawn without inviting the Orlais Grey Wardens (the reason her father killed King Cailan in the first place).

And btw. Alistair is the rightful heir to the throne. I mean he is the only male heir to a throne. The fact that Anora's father is a traitor and was executed for treason and regicide further weakens her claim.

Modifié par kooaznboi1088, 02 décembre 2009 - 03:56 .

[BlueEyes_Austin]

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

Did anyone here ever decide to side with Anora on your first playthrough when you wanted to actually roleplay? I can never bring myself to side with her because she just is too eager to take advantage and too greedy for power.

Absolutely.  Human male noble origin allows you to become king...and if you handle it right keep Lilliana around on the side!

[tmp7704]

kooaznboi1088 wrote...

And btw. Alistair is the rightful heir to the throne. I mean he is the only male heir to a throne.

Ferelden doesn't work like that. The inheritance goes to whoever seems most capable, regardless of gender and often age. Plus the king is ultimately chosen by the banns, if they decide they want someone else than the heir of previous king then it's well within their rights and all the heir can do is pout.

Alistair is a candidate with better odds to be chosen than a random guy because he's a son of a man who proved himself to be a good ruler but in the eyes of random bann Anora can have as much if not more clout, having already proven to be a good ruler herself.

Modifié par tmp7704, 02 décembre 2009 - 04:28 .

[MadCat221]

There's a Kahless quote from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine which shows exactly why Arnora is a bad choice and Allistair is a good choice:

"Great men do not seek out power, but have it thrust upon them."

Crunchyinmilk wrote...

At no point is she every portrayed
as disinterested in destroying the blight or fixing the
mistakes/schemes of her father and Howe.

She supports her father, the man who ultimately either committed or allowed all the crimes you listed, if you don't support her.

Backstab or be backstabbed.  Or agree with her.  Those are the choices.

Modifié par MadCat221, 02 décembre 2009 - 04:31 .

[tmp7704]

MadCat221 wrote...

"Great men do not seek out power, but have it thrust upon them."

The alternative view is the people who seek out power are the only ones who actually care enough to make the effort.

Both are of course false to a degree, like all generalizations

Modifié par tmp7704, 02 décembre 2009 - 04:38 .

[Rifneno]

marshalleck wrote...

andre_ wrote...

Krigwin's nailed it pretty good. Anora's actions highly depend on what she wants, she's manipulative, or at least tries to be

But there's at least one other situation I ran into that didn't get mentioned in this thread (which really caught me off guard).

Help to "rescue" her, support her in every way. Surrender to Cauthrien, then escape from the prison. That ruins her plans - your're neither dead nor in prison, and still in a position to remove Loghain. Did you watch her hands while talking to her at Eamon's estate? You can see that she's hiding something! But still, agree to the alliance for the landsmeet. Tell her you support her as queen. If she asks what would happen to her father, tell her justice needs to be done. You didn't lie to her nor tried to backstab her. And she will still turn against you at the landsmeet.

She's such a nice person! All the characteristics a ruler of a land requires, eh? Queen? How about that tower over there?

So wait. if you tell her you're going to kill her father, she won't support you? God, what a miserable treacherous *****! :innocent:

Please.  You make it sound like the PC is going to murder an innocent loved one.  We're talking about a man that she herself admits is all but stark raving mad, has killed countless innocent people including her own husband and likely was going to kill her.  To add to the backstabbing point, she tells you that it's fine if you're going to kill him because "that's how it must be then."  Yet she does the exact opposite at the Landsmeet.

Morally, I consider her worse than Loghain.  At least Loghain thought he was doing what was best for his country.  Anora cares ONLY for her power.  She knows the extent of her father's madness but she'll still support keeping him in power if it keeps her in power.  She is willing to let torture and murder of innocents happen needlessly as long as it keeps her on the throne.  That, in my mind, is the definition of evil.  I can't understand why there's no way to see her dead in this game.  With so many widely varying endings, some of them obviously can't be canon; why not let this variation happen too?  =/

[TuringPoint]

Did Loghain do what he thought was best? He wasn't even sure his own plan would work. Cauthrien describes his loss of faith in great detail, a loss of spirit for his cause. Why do you think that happened? Don't you think Anora was affected by this, was aware of it?

It just generally strikes me that people's arguments against her are so verbose, and so over-extended. If you can over-extend an argument infinitely like this, how can it be rational and self-evident?

She is not a heroically upstanding person.  Alistair most certainly isn't either, however.  I do think that Anora is, quite frankly, not pure evil.  She has her idea of what's best for Ferelden and she pursues it.  She pursues doing active good for her country; that, to me, is important.  It's not all that is important, but it's important.

Modifié par Alocormin, 02 décembre 2009 - 05:25 .

[Cyberpunk]

Well atleast I guess this is settled:

Anora is a backstabber and not a good person. And we need a DLC where we can kill her.

Btw I am not convinced by any arguments put forth that Anora is making the power grab because she is thinking of Feralden (her power grab can potentially kill the 2 remaining Grey Wardens after all). She is thinking of herself. I mean she sides with her husband's killer! That shows how much she actually cared about Cailan too btw. And does not bode well for Alistair or Cousland should they marry her.

Modifié par kooaznboi1088, 02 décembre 2009 - 07:31 .

[TuringPoint]

Yawn?



You people are crazy, lol. This is why tyrants like Anora should rule.

[mastersam562]

''All the while, Anora is under house arrest or in Howe's prison. Unable to challenge her father's position as Reagent by herself. You and Eamon are her only chance to make things right. To fix the damage her father and Howe have done, and reclaim the throne she holds rightfully.

At no point is she every portrayed as disinterested in destroying the blight or fixing the mistakes/schemes of her father and Howe."

She was never under house arrest or prisoned Logaine confirm this if you spare him, so it was her plan all along


Crunchyinmilk all the points I laid out is just the things that happened under her rule. I know about them because I like pointed out in an eariler post Ive played the game several times through, its all the things I question about her rule. Several people seem to think she would make a good ruler when the other nobles can very likely do the same, but you can have a great ruler with Alistair with potential to receive many boons later on.

This is all my way of saying Anora has no place on the throne, shes very likely the worst choice in the first place.

Modifié par mastersam562, 02 décembre 2009 - 09:51 .

[Krigwin]

tmp7704 wrote...
It is a handy term but if you dislike it we can instead go with "doing the very thing Anora just told you not to". I.e. for all she can see you are not cooperating with her but quite the opposite. Consequently going by the line of logic you were presenting it would be in her best interest to remove you from picture, permanently. Except she doesn't. Which either makes no sense or simply means the line of reasoning you provide for her is false.
 
I'm talking about the situation where you do not "survive" your encounter but are instead captured. And left alive rather than dead although from Anora's point of view there's absolutely no reason to keep you alive at this point.

But if she doesn't let you live, then you miss out on the amazing Bioware-patented prison escape segment!

But seriously, regardless of whether you go to prison or not, you're still thinking of her as an ally, and that's what counts.

The goalposts are being moved slightly too fast for me to follow, i'm afraid. Just a few posts ago you were saying she did not intend to get the wardens killed unless they're not cooperating (" she'd have no reason to go out of her way to get you dead (..)") but now her plan is supposed to be "try to kill them first and pretend to be friend if that does not work".

Would you agree this is rather confusing and makes hardly an impression of a solid master plan?

More like "pretend to be a friend at all times but put in contingencies to kill them". In any case, now you're getting me all confused

[Krigwin]

Crunchyinmilk wrote...

When you first arrived in the city with Eamon your grievance with Howe is made quite clear to Cauthrien.

What grievance would that be? Assuming you're not a Human Noble?

Ser Cauthrien can't be talked around at the foiled breakout from Howe's estate.

How do you know this? Especially as it's revealed later she already knows of Loghain's madness and can indeed be swayed by reason?

You're standing hip deep in the bodies of his guards with blood all over you and she's there to arrest you.

Which... raises a question, doesn't it? How did she know just then to arrive to arrest you? Or that Howe was already dead?

If you OUT the disguised Anora right there, its no wonder she provokes a fight, to let her flee the scene. Not even a master of coercion could talk themselves out of being arrested. It seems certain if she doesn't scarper, she'll be dragged back to daddy.

This raises yet another question. According to Anora, her father is insane and if she goes back to her father she will be killed. Cauthrien is the most loyal of Loghain's followers, it therefore logically follows that if you out Anora, and then surrender or lose, Cauthrien would then take Anora back to Loghain, or at least imprison her again, no? So how does Anora magically escape to go back to Eamon's estate?  It can't be during the fight if there was no fight. Or if she does escape, shouldn't Cauthrien report to Loghain about this? Shouldn't they capture her again? This whole "help I'm being held hostage" thing is just way too suspicious.

Just because you where stupid enough to try to talk Ser Cauthrien around to your cause, with blood and bodies lying all about (and upon) you and a mysterious girl who looks just like the Queen standing behind you, doesn't make Anora a backstabbing **** for making the most intelligent response she could given her rescuers idiocy.

No, more like the most intelligent choice there would be to persuade Cauthrien to join your side. You have Anora's word, and she is Queen, higher than Loghain. You have evidence of Howe torturing prisoners and general other unsavory acts committed in Loghain's name. Cauthrien herself is already on the fence. You've already proven your combat abilities to Anora by killing Howe.

So, either it would seem like Anora is following the plan I outlined earlier, or she just has an extremely low opinion of you... which doesn't really make that much sense if she was sincerely enlisting your help to rescue her and remove her father from power.

Anora is savvy, She wants to control the news of her imprisonment and use it when it can do the most good for her cause. She is not a backstabber. She's just more intelligent than all of you apparently.

I'm... not even sure what this means.

By all means, discuss OTHER reasons you feel she shouldn't be queen. "What happened at the elven alienage" isn't very descriptive though. To what do you refer?

All of those reasons have been elaborated upon in detail in this very thread. She's selfish. She's a racist and a classist. She's willing to betray anyone, have anyone killed to ensure her power. She's not interested in doing what's best for Ferelden, she's only interested in remaining in power. She's manipulative and a good liar, and has no qualms with deceiving anyone.

I haven't even gone into all the reasons why Alistair would be a better ruler yet!

[tmp7704]

Krigwin wrote...

She's not interested in doing what's best for Ferelden, she's only interested in remaining in power.

I'd say it's rather the case of her thinking she is what's best for Ferelden (she says as much when you ask her why she should be the queen) and seeing to it by all means necessary. Which blurs that oh so convenient line between "selfish ****" and "dedicated ruler".

She is not a humble yes-woman when dealing with the player, but a character with own very strong opinions and quite separate goals. Which apparently irks some alot, perhaps because they come with expectation the game world should be nothing but their sandbox malleable as they please.

[Yorenec]

Alocormin wrote...
It just generally strikes me that people's arguments against her are so verbose, and so over-extended. If you can over-extend an argument infinitely like this, how can it be rational and self-evident?

Personally I'll take the over-extended and semi-thought out posts instead of the grammar capabilties reminiscent of a five year old that a good amount of the Anora/Loghain supporters seem to have.

Case in point,  voidcommander9111980.

Modifié par Yorenec, 03 décembre 2009 - 03:04 .

[mastersam562]

Alocormin wrote...

Did Loghain do what he thought was best? He wasn't even sure his own plan would work. Cauthrien describes his loss of faith in great detail, a loss of spirit for his cause. Why do you think that happened? Don't you think Anora was affected by this, was aware of it?

It just generally strikes me that people's arguments against her are so verbose, and so over-extended. If you can over-extend an argument infinitely like this, how can it be rational and self-evident?

She is not a heroically upstanding person.  Alistair most certainly isn't either, however.  I do think that Anora is, quite frankly, not pure evil.  She has her idea of what's best for Ferelden and she pursues it.  She pursues doing active good for her country; that, to me, is important.  It's not all that is important, but it's important.

I dont see this as an argument rather a good discussion, i dont see any flame post yet. I cant quite follow what you mean by "over-extended?" Please elaborate.

Im not sure who said this to me or maybe it was from a different rpg, but I firmly believe in it. A great leader is not forged in times of peace, but in times of great conflict and peace.  Following that when everything went to **** she fell flat on her face, who disagree? She had zero control of everything that mattered, then tried to scheme her way back. When she put on that smirky face and said "Who do you think been ruling these 5 years?" I wished I had an option to punch her in the face because nothing indicate her as a  good ruler other than from Eamon about how shes popular, and we all know how she dealt with everything that happened ingame.

Maybe I missed some information ingame because I didnt get all the codexs, but can someone please lay out some points that makes her a good ruler?

[frylock23]

I agreed to back Anora. I fully intended to let her have the stupid throne since Alistair didn't want it. I was playing Human noble and female, and my character had already decided that Alistair was "hers" so the marry Anora option was right out.



She didn't stab me in the back at the Landsmeet, but when everything fell out and it was my choice who would rule, I questioned both her and Alistair about it. She was just too greedy for the throne and wasted no opportunities to trash Alistair in order to convince me. By contrast, Alistair had not an unkind thing to say about her and still tried to hand her throne. In the end, I felt that it would be better for everyone to have someone in power who didn't seek it and wouldn't turn around and trash others just to maintain it.



So, I ended up backstabbing her. However, I rationalize it by remembering that Arl Eamon told me to secure the support of as many nobles as I could. Anora is still a noble, and I garnered her support ... after a fashion.



You can bet though that when things fell out with Alistair sacrificing himself, I decided that I ought to travel for a time and took off for parts unknown.

[Xandurpein]

I really belong in the pro-Anora camp, but I'm perfectly willing to agree that a lot of my sentiment is more emotional than logical, but I would argue that those who are against her are equally guilty to that. We simply don't know enough about her true motives. Wether you are pro or against Anora, I see many posts in this thread judging her by the writers own personal interptretations. It's all very easy to make up your own personal fiction about how every thing she says are lies (or truth I guess) and then judge her evil not for what she does, but what I assume is the "real" truth behind them.



Obviously she has a very emotionally tangled relationship with her father. He is an extremely powerful figure and they do seem to genuinly love each other. At the same time you can see from the cut-scenes that Anora is more and more forced to question her fathers actions. She challeneges him over her husbands death. I don't think it would be easy for her to break with her father. She would have agonized a lot before she finally decided to revolt against him, regardless of the mounting facts that Loghain was loosinig it. If you choose the ending where Loghain sacrifices himself and take the final blow to redeem himself you can talk to her about Loghains sacrifice at the post-coronation. It is very hard for me to belive that Anora's anguish and relief when she is told that her father died as the hero she wants to remember him is fake.



I had no problem with her demanding I should be consort. I figured that of course she wasn't going to hand over the power she had fought to retain to someone she hardly knew, just because we arranged a political marriage. I would totally loose my respect for the woman if she did! I am willing to accept that it is possible to interpret this as that her true motive is to make me her manipulated boy-toy, but I do not accept that it is the only logical explanation.



I found it kind of cute during the post-coronation scene when I talked to Anora and she suddenly opened up and became personal, when she says she is a bit nervous about the wedding and everything. I found it sincere and very endearing. Of course I have no proof that she was not just being extremely manipulative and playing me, but again - I see no reason other than personal bias to assume she had to be manipulating.



In short. I can see someone constructing an inherently logical scenario in which Anora's actions can be explained as being the actions of a manipulative power-mad tyrant, but I do not myself blieve in it, nor do I think it is the most reasonable one. But that is maybe just my personal bias. After all if I judged Anora solely on the grounds that she wants to be Queen, I would have judged myself too, since I wanted to be King...



By the way... does everyone who hate Anora also hate Morrigan? It would at least make sense to me in the respect that both are strong, powerful and sometimes manipulative women who ultimatly have their own agendas, even if they ally with the MC to achieve their ends.

[Beren082]

Anora is a good politician; smart, cunning, savvy, but not at all a good queen by herself. she does manipulate, she does backstab, and she proves that she will stop at nothing to gain power. while this does give her great administrative ability, a ruler (such as a king/queen) is not only an administrator or a politician.



A king/queen is above all else, a symbol, and a symbol of treachery and deceit is not what you want for your country. Alistair proves both honest and trustworthy throughout your time with him, and never once even hints at a selfish thought. his life has been one entirely of sacrifice, and that's the first reason he's should be king. he will always think of others before himself, and will do anything to do the right thing. next, Alistair proves time and time again that martial prowess is wholly within his understanding. he may not be a warrior, but he is a soldier, through and through. he understands moral, never leaving a man behind, and death before dishonor. such a man would command fanatic loyalty on a battlefield and often away from it. Finally, He constantly despises the thought of his "birthright" and dreads the thought of having such far reaching power. he will always see his position as a responsibility, and not just an entitlement. he knows that his power binds him to the people, and it does not bind them to him.



so, while Anora would make for a decent arl, bann, or queen beside Alistair, she is obviously a horrible choice on her own.